What's a fair rate for an amateur model?

amdgilmore

I was thinking 25 an hour. Is that about right?

I'm looking for models for a project - just want to make sure I'm in the ballpark with the figure above

armedboarder

Devils advocate here but 25 seems fair if it's over the three or four hour mark. It would cost an amateur model that to get ready for a shoot. Just saying.

amdgilmore

I see. I'm only really looking at max 90 minutes per shoot. There's almost no prep-time required for the model, though. No make-up permitted for the shoot and the clothing requirement is pretty basic (sleeveless shirt/tank top)

armedboarder

Cool, was offering my own opinion, I always try cut a deal and give the models whatever portfolio quality shots they want in JPEG. Not all take the offer but once everyone is happy why not ? Out of interest, what course are you doing ?

gloobag

Don't pay an amateur. Your photos should be enough compensation for them. Heck, don't even bother with amateurs. Get in touch with some proper modelling agencies ask them if they have anyone available for 'testing' at the moment.

If they like your work, they'll happily send some girls/guys your way for free. At worst you might have to pay their bus fare and the price of a sandwich for them.

amdgilmore

armedboarder wrote: »

Cool, was offering my own opinion, I always try cut a deal and give the models whatever portfolio quality shots they want in JPEG. Not all take the offer but once everyone is happy why not ? Out of interest, what course are you doing ?

Not doing a course, just a personal project. Some of the stuff I'm looking to do might be a little bit too abstract for a modelling portfolio so i don't think a TFP swap would work. Thanks for the replies, though.

gloobag wrote: »

Don't pay an amateur. Your photos should be enough compensation for them. Heck, don't even bother with amateurs. Get in touch with some proper modelling agencies ask them if they have anyone available for 'testing' at the moment.

Ah, c'mon. They're doing a job, there's no harm in compensating them for it.

In any case, I'm looking for a very specific kind of face so I can't have them send out random testers to me.

Deadlie

No point in paying an amateur, really. It's nice of you, but sites like ModelMayhem etc., have buckets of models willing to work in exchange for images.

Paying an amateur can be frustrating too. There's a helluvah lot more to it than standing there looking pretty - and you shouldn't have to pay for someone learning their trade.

humberklog

I'm just imagining the same question asked in reverse over on the Fashion and Appearance forum. Model looking for photographer's rates.

I wouldn't know anything about what payment is expected in such a case but I think you've a smart offer in your OP. 25 quid and you wouldn't feel like you were taking the piss out of them and it might give you that extra little confidence controlling the shoot. It'll be costing you money after all.

magicbastarder

Deadlie wrote: »

No point in paying an amateur, really.

i assumed gloobag was taking the piss. harder to tell with this post.

Ben D Bus

I agree with gloobag, but having said that when I book amateur models I'll usually give them about a tenner per hour to avoid the hassle of having to provide images. I do this as a hobby so I can do without the hassle of having to deliver images within any particular timeframe. Once I'm paying I don't feel any obligation in that regard. I gave up TF* some time ago for this very reason. I always send on some images anyway, but only when I'm ready.

Deadlie

magicbastarder wrote: »

i assumed gloobag was taking the piss. harder to tell with this post.

I'm not taking the piss. Why pay an amateur? Especially given the rates of some of the professional models in Dublin these days?

I wouldn't pay for a photographer who hasn't photographed before/much, would you? You know what you're getting into when you deal with amateurs, it could be great, but there's a big risk it could be awful and you've wasted time AND money.

There are models out there who NEED images for portfolios to approach the major agencies. Working with these people on a TF basis can benefit both people without hurting anyone's pocket. It's win win.

If you need a professional model you pay for it. If you want an amateur photographer, there's hundreds willing to do it - and happily so- for free.

Sir Gallagher

No harm in throwing somebody a few bob for their time, it's only fair. Have a feeling this will turn into an interesting debate considering how the photography section is so vehement about photographers being paid for their time and/or image use.

armedboarder

I think some of your ideals about the models are very unfair. Everyone has to start somewhere. Your submissions in this thread are elitist and counter productive to fair trade. amdgilmore, please do not listen to such drivel and continue to act in a fairtrade way to your models. Thank you.

amdgilmore

I can't speak for the broader photographic community, but here is my perspective, arranged in efficient bullet-points for your convenience:

• The shots I'm looking for don't require any skill whatsoever on the model's part, just a particular build and look. No pro necessary.
  
• As mentioned, the shots I want aren't suitable for a portfolio.
  
• Compensating with suitable portfolio photos is still a monetary expense for me (albeit a small one) since I'm using film exclusively. There's also a much more significant expense for me in terms of time spent taking the extra photos, developing them and scanning them. I can barely find time to develop my own photos at the moment.

From my perspective 'saving' money by paying in photos is a false economy.

Ben D Bus

amdgilmore wrote: »

From my perspective 'saving' money by paying in photos is a false economy, so I'm happy to compensate with cash.

That's OK then. It should be a fair trade. If the model is not getting any images then they need to get something. In this cast it's cash.

But I've shot highly experienced, highly regarded (and nude) models from the UK & Ireland for 30-40euro/h so I'd still think 25ph is a bit much. If you set an expectation of that level of compensation for inexperienced amateurs, then some models are simply going to price themselves out of work. You wouldn't believe the crazy rates I've been quoted by some amateurs. Simply because that's what someone else naively paid them. That doesn't help anyone in the long run.

amdgilmore

Ben D Bus wrote: »

But I've shot highly experienced, highly regarded (and nude) models from the UK & Ireland for 30-40euro/h so I'd still think 25ph is a bit much.

That's a good ballpark figure for future reference, thanks. In this particular case it wasn't so much about getting a model on the cheap, it was just that I could only find two girls in the Dublin area who fit the profile I was looking for and neither was a pro.

gloobag

magicbastarder wrote: »

i assumed gloobag was taking the piss.

I wasn't It's just the way the modelling industry works.

A top agency will take on a new girl/guy based on their height, build, looks and overall potential. Personality is also big factor. They have no portfolio at this stage. Most of the time they are picked out from agency open days, or just had the balls to go to the agency themselves and apply to be model. Sometimes they are referred by photographers or others who discovered them randomly. It's very rare for an amateur who's being doing the rounds on ModelMayhem or the plethora of Facebook modelling groups to get picked up by an agency.

Modelling agencies make money when their models appear in commercials,editorials and fashion shows (They probably couldn't care less about Joe Soap Photographer who wants to hire a girl for a couple of hours). They need photographs to market these models to their potential clients, and the models need the valuable experience of being in front of a camera for hours on end, and working as part of a creative team. Obviously the agencies would prefer to get all of this training for free, and that's where us photographers come in.

Up and coming commercial/fashion photographers need beautiful people to photograph if they want to build a strong book to present to potential clients and submit editorials to magazines. Obviously we would prefer to get these beautiful people in front of the camera for free

That's pretty much it. It's your basic 'TF' agreement, just on a slightly more professional level I guess you could say. I'm not sure why it's called 'testing' to be honest, but I always assumed it was so the photographer can 'test' out some techniques while the model gets 'tested' on their ability to perform for the camera.

OP, an agency will never send you a random model. They'll give you a list of who's available and let you pick from that. You could also just browse models on their site and get in touch about testing with a particular girl/guy with the look you need. I've done it plenty of times.

I wouldn't worry about your images being too abstract either, it's more about the models gaining experience than amassing a huge stockpile of images. If in doubt you could shoot a few simple portrait shots just to be safe, but I've had plenty of shoots where the agency didn't even look for the images afterwards. Oh, and if they do look for images, they won't want prints. A digital file at a decent enough resolution that they could print themselves has always been fine in my dealings.

Obviously you know what's best for your own project, but I just thought I'd put the info out there for anyone that was curious

magicbastarder

maybe i'm not au fait with the way the model industry works, but i do know how people react when someone arrives on here asking for photographic services in return for 'adding to your portfolio'.
i just assumed it'd cut both ways.

ditpaintball

I am with Brian , gloodbag on this one, don't pay an amature.....but there are some caveats. Mainly being that if your going to spend money, spend it with a professional or someone who has a lot of experience.

gloobag wrote: »

Don't pay an amateur. Your photos should be enough compensation for them. Heck, don't even bother with amateurs. Get in touch with some proper modelling agencies ask them if they have anyone available for 'testing' at the moment.

If they like your work, they'll happily send some girls/guys your way for free. At worst you might have to pay their bus fare and the price of a sandwich for them.

1. If you are an absolute beginner, then you should a find model / friend / person who is also in the same boat. They are looking for the experience just as much as you. So nobody should be out of pocket.

In reality these first shots maybe "your best" and your chuffed, but a few shoots later you will more than likely delete them and wonder what you were thinking back then.

2. When you are on your 3/4 shoot .... or when you are comfortable with your gear, then it is time to up the model. Head to agencies and work with good models. When working with good models, you learn things. If you only ever work with amateurs or girls with no experience, then you are never going to learn and progress. Instead you will end up having to spend more time directing the models and helping them. In that case its more valuable to them and you can start to charge them ( if your good enough).


In terms of what to pay models if you're going down that rate, there are factors to consider. Their experience, are they doing their own hair and makeup ( are the good at it), are they bringing their own clothes, are they providing their own transport, are they excited about the shoot and going to bring good ideas and energy to it etc. Lots of things to consider.

The only time I pay models is when we do a shoot with the aim of selling it to the papers or magazines and we share the profits.

amdgilmore

I'm sure that's probably all good advice for somebody who is interested in commercial photography, but that person isn't me!

As mentioned, the only models I can find who fit the profile I'm looking for are a couple of amateurs and, considering the constraints on my time right now, cash is the easier solution for me.

Corkbah

for me ...if you can find the right person and are willing to pose - you can negotiate the price then, if they are willing to do it for the experience or are happy to do it without payment you can always give them a gift card with X amount on it as a "thank you"

for an amateur ..if there is no real posing required - you pay whatever you are happy with , some of the other people here must consider that even an amateur model will still have expenses getting to a shoot as well as their time.....I wonder would some of the togs here consider doing a shoot for free if they were asked (I'm sure most would say no way - but yet consider it ok to offer no payment to the model)

Deadlie

Corkbah wrote: »

I wonder would some of the togs here consider doing a shoot for free if they were asked (I'm sure most would say no way - but yet consider it ok to offer no payment to the model)

I do it all the time. Model Mayhem is chockfull of photographers willing to shoot pro-bono if the images will be interesting, different, the model is great etc. It's a mutually beneficial option. The photographer and model get great images for themselves, with which they can share, use to promote themselves etc.

Also, there's no harm in shooting for free if you *want* to. Similarly there's no need to feel bad about not paying a model if s/he is happy to do it for nothing. If you're into photography for making money, go for it, but don't give out to people who do it for nothing, if they're not directly affecting you getting paid. This isn't an area that is full of paydays. Much like music photography at present, most people doing it are doing it for a love of it.

I know for the OP it as easier/cheaper to pay up front, but I'm just taking in a general sense. I think it makes sense for the OP to pay his model - he's looking for a specific type and is shooting in a format that would be a chore and expense to supply the model with.

ScumLord

amdgilmore wrote: »

From my perspective 'saving' money by paying in photos is a false economy.

Cash is the false economy, it's only ever a means to an end. What everyone in the industry wants at the end of the day is photos. Cut out the middleman and give everyone what they actually want.

amdgilmore

This isn't complicated. I have some spare money; I have almost no spare time.

The photos option doesn't work for me.

ScumLord

amdgilmore wrote: »

This isn't complicated. I have some spare money; I have almost no spare time.

The photos option doesn't work for me.

That's fair enough and I understand it completely, but if you're doing the photos anyway all you have to do is email on some jpegs and then everyone's happy.

amdgilmore

But like I said, I'm using a medium format film camera, and developing and scanning myself. It's a very time consuming process from start to finish. I can't just fire off fifty shots in 15 minutes at the end of the shoot and pick five of the best, like you could with digital.

Splinters

Theres been a lot of mentions here about working for "free". I wouldnt class this as working for free in any way. If you are good at what you do then your services have a value. Likewise a model you are shooting also has a value. Exchanging those services, both of which have a real world money value, does not equal free.

heliguyheliguy

interesting thread with some great info. Not sure why it was asked!