Cycling & Triathlon - Does Timmy Barry Have a point?

ROK ON

http://www.stickybottle.com/blogs/tim-barry-writes-cycling-could-learn-from-triathlon-both-would-benefit-from-a-formal-relationship/

Very interesting piece in SB from Timmy Barry.

I think that he does up to a point - what is the view here?

I cycle regulalrly with triathletes and am always amaed at the dedication at different levels. I have marshalled at triathalons and have found the festival athmosphere described in that article to be accurate - it is an all weekend event for some towns briing in businesss to B&Bs, restaurants and bars.

It is nut IMHO that in many small towns there is a separate cycling club and tri club - from helping organising races more so-operation is better surely???


Cycling be comparison seems like an illicit sport.
What also hits yoou at a tri is that you get all sorts competing from the elite guys down to the noobs - (if you go to the tri forum on Boards one gets the distinct impression that this really annoys some of the athletes, but inclusion is better than exclusion as long as everyoone understands that it is actually a race and is meant to be tough.)

Anyhow, what do folks think.

Inquitus

I think he makes a good point about some sort of licensing crossover, need to be done carefully though or people would just plump for the cheapest. Not into Tri really but I would consider the odd duathlon given there's a series in the phoenix park, but the additional cost of a one day license really drives the cost up. But people from Tri competing in bike races and people from CI competing in Tris would do no harm to attendances and support for both disciplines.

morana

as far as I know there is very good cooperation between both organisations. I think the idea of a combined licence would be worth exploring. Maybe if a joint insurance policy could be in place it would be nore feasible. I dont know if that would be a possibility but even wioth the 1 day licences I dont think there was a massive number of tri guys or girls coming to races. thats not to say if to say if it were easy to participate it wouldnt increase.

But for me is lets get it right for those members we currently have first.

micar

very interesting article.

This year marked by 6th year doing triathlon. I've done sprints, olympics, half ironman and and ironman. I've done many duathlons, adventure races, road running races but have never a solo bike race.

Out off all 3 disciplines, they rank worst to best as being swimming, running and cycling.

I would at the start have been a better runner but cycling as taken over marginally.

When Tim speaks about the bike leg, he kinda describes me. I make up a huge amount of time

I've always wanted to do a cycle road race. There were a few in recent months but I had something else on at that time. You get the impression that pure cyclists don't like triathletes even though ability wise we maybe the same.

I'd always be on the look out for races on the runireland and triathlon website but I don;t think I've searched for a comparable
cycling site. I suppose there is one. I've only come to know some race from seeing flyers and threads on boards.

ashleey

I prefer cycling but don't race as I don't want to get brought down by a bunch ( at my age). I have entered duathlons and triathlons because I like swimming, can tolerate running but like the cycle leg and the strict solo riding policy as in our club TT league. Having said that I am happy to ride a sportive in a group as the ethos is different to a race. (Only just though on some of them this year). A group licence would be a good idea as it an resolve insurance matters for Sunday club rides.
Strict dress code does apply though. Turning up in pants and calf length socks is not on.

RobFowl

ashleey wrote: »

Turning up in pants and calf length socks is not on.

I'd be opposed to any further integration/co-operation on the basis of calf lenght socks alone...

el tel

Triathlon is a bit like the special Olympics or school sports day; it's not about the winning, but rather the taking part. And somewhat paradoxically, by finishing the event you are a winner.

ashleey

I loved the line about thinking that you (I) had come first in the cycle leg until the results come out. Must be down to using a road bike instead of one of those rattly machines that triathletes love. Can't someone explain to them that rattles are uncool and a bike should make a only whirring noise in motion but have a really loud freewheel for when pushing your bike to the start.

CptMackey

He obviously hasn't consulted the rules :pac:

dedocdude

Timmy is one of the country's finest and most knowledgeable bike riders - this is a good piece from him. Very interesting indeed and a refreshing change from some of the articles that have appeared on SB in the past -

Ole Rodrigo

How do you recognize a triathlete at a party ?

You dont have to, they'll tell you.

:pac:

gilleek2

I'm a triathlete and I think the general view, from at least some of the triathlon community, is that pure cyclists don't want triathletes anywhere near them for fear that they will cause a crash taking out the whole group. Apparently we cant handle our bikes. I think in general though more cooperation would be great. I wonder how insurance would work though. From what I see triathlons are unbelievably safety conscious (perhaps because we cant handle our bikes) whereas bike races are a lot more relaxed. I doubt Triathlon Irelands current insurers would cover some bike races.
Example, I saw a vets race in July and on one of the few corners on the course there was loads of fine gravel on the road due to there being a nearby quarry. In a triathlon someone would be dispatched to that corner with a brush and told to sweep it clear. I've no idea if that kind of thing is prevalent in road races as I've never done one so feel free to invalidate my opinion.

ashleey

In fairness, I think it is the use of tri bars that has road cyclists worried about triathletes' bike skills. One puff of wind and you're down.

gilleek2

That's true. At Dunmore East this year I took one of those puffs of wind and nearly got very intimate with the tarmac. Use of TT bars are banned in our club spins and TT bikes in general discouraged in training. Some people however only have 1 bike and if it's a TT bike then you cant really excommunicate them for that.
One minor thing that irked me about bike races was figuring out where the damn things were on! The last time I looked on the CI website I saw a list of races named in memory of former club members. That's all well and good but if you don't know where the John Doe Memorial is actually held then how do you decide whether it's a viable race for you?
I think some triathletes that are targeting big races, ironman in particular are reluctant to do bike races for fear of a crash that will rule out their big event for which they've trained for 8 or 9 months.

Lusk_Doyle

Inquitus wrote: »

I think he makes a good point about some sort of licensing crossover, need to be done carefully though or people would just plump for the cheapest. Not into Tri really but I would consider the odd duathlon given there's a series in the phoenix park, but the additional cost of a one day license really drives the cost up. But people from Tri competing in bike races and people from CI competing in Tris would do no harm to attendances and support for both disciplines.

One day duathlon licences are only a fiver.

ROK ON

One of the main points of the article is that many triathlons up and down the country are big events. Events that begin and finish in or close to a town.

Most big races (with a few exceptions) are simply races - they are nowhere near tris in terms of spectacle or event.

Maybe there is no desire to change - I simply thought it a salient point from one of the countries foremost bike races on argauably the best team in the country for the past three years (at least).

Inquitus

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

One day duathlon licences are only a fiver.

http://www.triathlonireland.com/purchase-a-one-day-licence.html

How much does a one day licence cost?
Triathlons: 20 euro/£20

Aquathlons: 10 euro / £10

Duathlons: 10 euro / £10

Other multisport events: 20 euro/£20

RobFowl

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

One day duathlon licences are only a fiver.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEStsLJZhzo

gilleek2

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

One day duathlon licences are only a fiver.

The duathlon races in the Phoenix park that were referred to before arent even TI races so no ODL is needed. The insurance cost (which the ODL is there to cover) is included in the cost of those races.

If ever there was a time to bring bike races back to the towns & cities it's 2014 with the Giro starting in Belfast. Imagine the spectacle of a bike race in the phoenix park on a summers evening. I know the park is packed with events but there would surely be space 1 evening every month in the summer.

Lusk_Doyle

Inquitus wrote: »

http://www.triathlonireland.com/purchase-a-one-day-licence.html

How much does a one day licence cost?
Triathlons: 20 euro/£20

Aquathlons: 10 euro / £10

Duathlons: 10 euro / £10

Other multisport events: 20 euro/£20

I could have sworn I paid a fiver for the one I did earlier this year. Might have been a tenner though. Still, no more expensive than the one day race licences issued by ci until April of this year. Or close enough to April of this year. The numbers at the open races were testament to the fact that ten euro was not that big a deterrent.

Lusk_Doyle

gilleek2 wrote: »

The duathlon races in the Phoenix park that were referred to before arent even TI races so no ODL is needed. The insurance cost (which the ODL is there to cover) is included in the cost of those races.

If ever there was a time to bring bike races back to the towns & cities it's 2014 with the Giro starting in Belfast. Imagine the spectacle of a bike race in the phoenix park on a summers evening. I know the park is packed with events but there would surely be space 1 evening every month in the summer.

+1 on the above. We need more events like this to encourage crowds to attend for the spectacle of it. That would help harmonise the relationship between clubs and local councils IMO.

Inquitus

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

I could have sworn I paid a fiver for the one I did earlier this year. Might have been a tenner though. Still, no more expensive than the one day race licences issued by ci until April of this year. Or close enough to April of this year. The numbers at the open races were testament to the fact that ten euro was not that big a deterrent.

How did you get on? 19 min 5km and your speed on the bike, if there weren't too many corners , would equate to a decent result?

I have been meaning to give the Phoenix park ones a go, but haven't found the time.

Lusk_Doyle

Inquitus wrote: »

How did you get on? 19 min 5km and your speed on the bike, if there weren't too many corners , would equate to a decent result?

I have been meaning to give the Phoenix park ones a go, but haven't found the time.

Haha! It was very early in the year up at bog of the ring and the run had a 3km climb straight out of the gate! I think I was 23rd. I plan on more next year so hope to improve on that. Joining Fingal Tri soon for the running. Don't worry, I'm not interested in, nor do I have the time for triathlons!

onimpulse

I definitely agree that Cycling Ireland could learn a lot from Triathlon Ireland but to be fair TI could take some tips from CI too.

Triathlons are definitely much easier to find out about - when they are on, where, what distance etc I did triathlon for about 5 years or so before doing my first bike race last year & getting completely hooked. I always preferred the bike leg of the Tri & always had doing bike racing in the back of my head but the few times I looked for a race over those years I couldn't find the information I was looking for on it so never did one until last year. That said, once you're in a cycling club it's so easy to find out about races because the members know the races & courses form years of doing them but in my opinion the lack of easily available information (outside club members own heads) makes it difficult to start racing in the first place.

I know several triathletes who race to improve the bike leg of their tris. They definitely see the benefits in terms of Tri results but I agree the cost is prohibitive. This year I only got a CI licence & didn't renew my TI racing licence because of the cumulative cost of both. A combined licence would be fantastic.

From my observations TI has a problem retaining members - I noticed an awful lot of people do triathlon for a few years & then end up doing either cycling or running only. Cycling doesn't have this problem so perhaps there is something to be learned here or perhaps it's the nature of the sport?

I don't really believe that though I think it's a lot more to do with the atmosphere in the clubs & at races. In the little over a year I've been cycle racing I know far more people from clubs all over the country that I did in 5 years in Triathlon. I have found the cycling community ( my club & generally just riders on the start line) far more welcoming than triathlon & very willing to give advice or help in any way. This may be a large part of the reason cyclists tend to stay in the sport. Triathlon could definitely learn from this.

The start if a triathlon is totally OTT with registration the night before, body marking (in some races) chip collection etc... Then we have the speeches from all & sundry going on & on warning you to stay hydrated & other such gems - no wonder triathletes take themselves too seriously, I love the relaxed approach at bike races & I definitely think this affects the atmosphere & culture.

As for bike handling skills - most triathletes train in groups over the winter and are comparable to most A4's competing for the first time, it's not triathletes that are the problem it's idiots not being aware of the bunch around them but they are as likely to be a cyclist as a triathlete.

micar

ror_74 wrote: »

How do you recognize a triathlete at a party ?

You dont have to, they'll tell you.

:pac:

eh no!!!!!! I never mention it and hate speaking about it. A friend of mine who does not do any always brings it up when we're chatting up girls. Only brings it up to mention to that I did an Ironman.

Was chatting up this girl in a night club (scored her later ). Never mentioned I did triathlon. However, she asked me if I was a triathlete. TBH, I was a little surprise.

Forget to ask her of all sports she could mention that triathlon was the one.

Lusk_Doyle

micar wrote: »

Was chatting up this girl in a night club (scored her later ). Never mentioned I did triathlon. However, she asked me if I was a triathlete. TBH, I was a little surprise.

It must have been the sleeveless top you had on that gave the game away! :P

Beasty

ROK ON wrote: »

One of the main points of the article is that many triathlons up and down the country are big events. Events that begin and finish in or close to a town.

Most big races (with a few exceptions) are simply races - they are nowhere near tris in terms of spectacle or event.

Maybe there is no desire to change - I simply thought it a salient point from one of the countries foremost bike races on argauably the best team in the country for the past three years (at least).

One point I would make here - how many Cycle races are there compared to triathlons? Every weekend has 2 and often 3 Open races in Leinster. Then there are club races on top of that - probably another half a dozen (and quite a few more some weeks). Throw in a couple of vets races, and you are talking probably a dozen or more events every week in Leinster alone. It's simply not possible to make them "special" in the same way.

That brings me onto another point. While encouraging more to race may be considered a good thing, alas in the current environment we are already coming across problems with local authorities in certain areas severely restricting both cycling and triathlon events

I would add though that in my club there seems to be a quite a number of triathletes that do the club league as part of their training regime. There is also a view shared by some people that triathletes do boost early season numbers in open races but then "disappear" later on in the season when the triathlon season is in full swing

Don't get me wrong - I'm all for co-operation between the disciplines. However if doing it is aimed at boosting numbers racing bikes it may create more problems for both sports

MrCreosote

micar wrote: »

Was chatting up this girl in a night club (scored her later ). Never mentioned I did triathlon. However, she asked me if I was a triathlete. TBH, I was a little surprise.

Forget to ask her of all sports she could mention that triathlon was the one.

This happens to me a lot! Then I remembered they could see the IM tattoo on my forehead which I keep forgetting about!

Anyway the whole thing is for cycling to sort out. Tri is no more closely related to biking than to running or swimming, so if cycling wants to get more permatanned tri-studs coming to their parties it's up to them to sort out their licencing.

el tel

Would a combined CI/ Tri licence not raise/cause UCI affiliation issues? I mean what organisations in their right minds would want to be affiliated with the UCI?

wav1

ROK ON wrote: »

One of the main points of the article is that many triathlons up and down the country are big events. Events that begin and finish in or close to a town.

Most big races (with a few exceptions) are simply races - they are nowhere near tris in terms of spectacle or event.

Maybe there is no desire to change - I simply thought it a salient point from one of the countries foremost bike races on argauably the best team in the country for the past three years (at least).

Our races in Leinster cost a tenner to enter.Some of the triathlons are triple that and more.Easier to make it ''special''

RobFowl

el tel wrote: »

Would a combined CI/ Tri licence not raise/cause UCI affiliation issues? I mean what organisations in their right minds would want to be affiliated with the UCI?

Don't worry, we've sorted the UCI out :cool:

ROK ON

wav1 wrote: »

Our races in Leinster cost a tenner to enter.Some of the triathlons are triple that and more.Easier to make it ''special''

Disagree - a race organiser such as yourself should know how the fee goes to cover (or barely cover) the cost of a race.

From what I have seen, even short tris have a greater cost outlay relative to a bike race.

Marshals for swim (often kayakers and RNLI), bike marshals and race marshals as well as the transition area.

They are expensive because they have to be. The tri club that I know run a race that is very successful - but it doesnt run at a loss - why should it.

Maybe tri are appropriately priced and bike races are priced too lowly relative to the cost outlay.

My point about the razamatzz etc is that for me it is very difficult to get away for a sunday to race. If the race had some side entertainment then my wife and kids might possibly be ar#ed to go to the race allowing me to race. I dont do triathlons, but some tris do have this. In fairness the Visit Nenagh classic also has something for the family.

I am sure that I am not alone in this desire.

I live in Kenmare - there are two triathlons in Kenmare every year. One run by Kenmare TC and one by Cork TC.

The influx of families for both race weekends is pretty big - there is a big buzz around the town. I think that is fantatsic and wish that other bike races would follow this.

As regards the fact that it is more difficult to find racing circuits as mentioned by Beasty.

Other than north county Dublin I am unaware of any other area in the country that this is the case.

wav1

ROK ON wrote: »

Disagree - a race organiser such as yourself should know how the fee goes to cover (or barely cover) the cost of a race.

From what I have seen, even short tris have a greater cost outlay relative to a bike race.

Marshals for swim (often kayakers and RNLI), bike marshals and race marshals as well as the transition area.

They are expensive because they have to be. The tri club that I know run a race that is very successful - but it doesnt run at a loss - why should it.

Maybe tri are appropriately priced and bike races are priced too lowly relative to the cost outlay.

My point about the razamatzz etc is that for me it is very difficult to get away for a sunday to race. If the race had some side entertainment then my wife and kids might possibly be ar#ed to go to the race allowing me to race. I dont do triathlons, but some tris do have this. In fairness the Visit Nenagh classic also has something for the family.

I am sure that I am not alone in this desire.

I live in Kenmare - there are two triathlons in Kenmare every year. One run by Kenmare TC and one by Cork TC.

The influx of families for both race weekends is pretty big - there is a big buzz around the town. I think that is fantatsic and wish that other bike races would follow this.

As regards the fact that it is more difficult to find racing circuits as mentioned by Beasty.

Other than north county Dublin I am unaware of any other area in the country that this is the case.

Reme does a fantastic jod getting the Nenagh race in to the town centre,but his club has the backing/sponsorship of the local authority down there.What a plus that is.I also would love to see more races in town centres but the problems this creates both with authorities,and garda etc is unbelievable,not to mention the cost.Takes 8/9 months of planning and talking etc to get the ras stage ends facilitated in towns.I think on the whole,going forward we in the cycle race promotion business will be very lucky to hold what we have,without looking for more.Back on topic though i think its probably easier for the triathlon promoters based on the fact that theres far less of them on a weekly basis,and a razzamataz can be created because of this.Cycling clubs dont have the resources,time,manpower etc to take it up a notch.

Lusk_Doyle

RobFowl wrote: »

Don't worry, we've sorted the UCI out :cool:

*Ahem* We shall see, my learned friend.

mossym

wav1 wrote: »

.Back on topic though i think its probably easier for the triathlon promoters based on the fact that theres far less of them on a weekly basis,and a razzamataz can be created because of this.Cycling clubs dont have the resources,time,manpower etc to take it up a notch.

not sure i agree there. first, it;s not like tri clubs are huge entities with deep pockets, they're faces with the same manpower, time and finance limitations as any of the cycle clubs. just as there are bigger tri clubs, there are bigger cycling clubs. Limerick tri club for example, put on one of the best tri's in the country, and it's all club run, it;s not a commercial entity.

plus, there are far more cyclists than people taking part in tri, there may be more races in cycling, but that doesn't mean they all have to be fancy affairs, plenty of plain triathlons out there as well, just on the tri side you do a have fair few which step it up a notch. nothing to stop some of the multitude of cycling races ever weekend going the same way

i think tri lends itself better to town centre sport, as you;ve multiple passes through the town during the transitions. i know the cycling races have laps, but the bikes tend to fly through with big gaps in between, where as triathlon tends to have more going on continusouly which is better for spectators

Green&Red

As someone who switched from tris to cycling the organisation isnt anywhere near the same level.

Finding out where and when the races are is a job in itselfm, SB having probably the best calendar there is.
In handicap races no idea what the handicap is
I've had the lead car bring us down the wrong road
and as for getting results, its impossible

Thats before u mention how the points work for the categories, is there anywhere that shows what races have points for A4 etc?

My point i suppose is that it doesnt make it easy on itself