Pay to Play??

sundodger5

I have seen the debate here many times about having a value on your time/skill etc.
Came across this on Tomi Swick's Facebook and thought i would share.
See attachment.

Kettleson

sundodger5 wrote: »

I have seen the debate here many times about having a value on your time/skill etc.
Came across this on Tomi Swick's Facebook and thought i would share.
See attachment.

To be realistic. Venues are not going to put on acts unless they can cover their overheads and make a wage for all involved. They gotta eat too. The reality is venues will not pay for acts unless they are profitable. They ain't benevolent societies.

Bands should get a dose of reality on this one PDQ.

sundodger5

No they are not Benevolent societies but some seem to think the musicians are.
If they want music that is gonna bring a guaranteed crowd why not book an "established" name?

Waking-Dreams

It is attention-hungry musicians that are part of the problem too. Many will be happy to get the opportunity to play on a stage that the prospect of receiving no money for it doesn’t bother them.

So, for every band that insists on being compensated for their efforts, a venue can simply find plenty of others who will do it for free.

It’s only when ALL artists demand to be compensated that this issue will diminish but it’s one of those collective action problems where there’ll always be someone who’ll defect and take the free gig, thus undermining everyone else’s efforts.

It’s also not just musicians who are experiencing this problem of being taken for granted. Graphic designers, photographers…

This guy comments on various ads from Craigslist where people are looking for creative types to work for free:

http://allartnopay.tumblr.com/

And to be honest, other musicians also try and exploit other creative types for their own ends (think small studio owners, photographers, etc.) haggling them down to the bare bones.

So you have some musicians not getting paid for gigs and annoyed over this but they themselves don't want to pay a sound engineer a respectable price for recording their demo?

Kettleson

Respect should also be shown to venues that are willing to try new acts.

The Union rule was always a contentious issue and always will be. And it's never going to work. In the 1920's, it only by radio stations in America refusing to pay union members their royalty fee that blues, predominately played by black singers who weren't members, got to be played on radio and had a massive rise in popularity as a result.

The major labels today have a strangle hold on what we hear.

So what do you really want? To be rich? Famous? No?

So what is it? You want your music to be heard? Then play venues that will let you play and do a deal with them. If you build up a following and the venue does well, they will pay you. If you ain't pulling in a few punters, how do you expect to be paid?

Many bands playing live are pretty poor anyways from a commercial point of view. But if you are doing something original, and you want live experience, then you can't expect to be paid if you are not pulling in punters.

Get on with it. Learn your trade and earn your respect and payment, if that's what you want.

maccored

bands shouldnt expect venues to pay them without the band having developed a following. its a bit chicken and egg. no gigs, no following. ergo bands need to do their own thing, organise their own gigs, play gigs online, get involved with music communities and put on gigs with more than one band and split the cost. original bands normally rent a venue then take the door. Its really only cover bands/tribute bands/bands with decent followings who look for guaranteed money. original bands demanding set rates from pubs, without the band actually having the pulling power to bring in the punters is never going to happen.

Kettleson

Talking original bands here, historically the venues that accommodated original bands that went on to establish themselves were places like CBGB's and the Bull and Gate in Kentish town were dark, dreary places. Most if not all of the Brit Pop bands would have played at the Bull and Gate and I seen quite a few of them play there in the early 90's. You were lucky if you made petrol money. It was part of the rite of passage and always will be.

Sadly now the Bull and Gate has closed.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/music-fans-sadness-as-kentish-town-gig-venue-bull-and-gate-is-closed-8492738.html

Kettleson

maccored wrote: »

bands shouldnt expect venues to pay them without the band having developed a following. its a bit chicken and egg. no gigs, no following. ergo bands need to do their own thing, organise their own gigs, play gigs online, get involved with music communities and put on gigs with more than one band and split the cost. original bands normally rent a venue then take the door. Its really only cover bands/tribute bands/bands with decent followings who look for guaranteed money. original bands demanding set rates from pubs, without the band actually having the pulling power to bring in the punters is never going to happen.

Absolutely. Anyone who takes your sound advice should try looking for a pub that has a side room that isn't used. You become the promoter. Get a few bands to play. Consider charging at the door after its established.

Kettleson

sundodger5 wrote: »

No they are not Benevolent societies but some seem to think the musicians are.
If they want music that is gonna bring a guaranteed crowd why not book an "established" name?

I and many others have left many pubs because the band that was playing was sh1te or too loud. I will pay to see an act at a venue but there is nothing worse than loud music when you want to chat in a pub.

Now if there is an originals band I will immediately have an interest, but the vast majority of people who go to a pub don't want that. And therefore the pubs won't book them, not unless they have a following. And very often they won't do that either as they don't want a partisan following turning up who don't mix with their regulars who then go elsewhere.

Pubs can't afford to pay "established names" and professional working bands, mostly cover and wedding bands will only play pubs as a business card, in order to get seen to get private bookings and corporate gigs during lean times.