Looking for some info

googleyed

Hi all,
Apologies for the long post
So a while back I test drove a car and got a price with my own car from the garage owner, got a good trade in on my old car so was happy enough.
Before leaving I asked him to double check the tax on the car and he went into his office and came out telling me it was €280 per year. I had no reason to doubt this, the car is '08 family estate and I was expecting it to be in that bracket. I told him Id be back once I discussed it with my wife.

So between work and the missus having a baby it was a month later when I got to go back to the garage.
The man that owned the garage wasn't around but his wife was. I got another €300 off the cost of the car and we shook hands on the deal. It needed a service, NCT and new tyres so I agreed to pick it up the following week. So when I went to tax it I was shocked to discover it was going actually going to cost me €570.

I know I should have checked this myself but I did ask the garage owner and had no reason to dispute his answer. I rang the garage (in a very calm, reasonable manner) and spoke to his wife and let her know my annoyance at this and that I felt that I had been led on. She tried to fob me off telling me it was the government that set the tax rate not her. I told her I was aware of this but was told by her husband it was €280. She basically screamed at me like a banshee and hook up the phone.
An hour later she rang back and apologised and said she was having a bad day blah blah blah, but I basically go no joy out of her on the tax issue. I'm really annoyed at this as I am now going to have to pay double what I was expecting to. I have a very young family and I had not budgeted for this.

My question is this - do I have any comeback on this? Their a decent sized family run garage just outside a large town and had no reason to believe they were dodgy ( I made a few enquiries locally and they had a good rep).
As a side note they have my old car for sale on their website and the mileage is 40K lower than what it was when I left it into them!
This also makes me worry about the history of my new car even though I got a mechanic to check it out and it has a full stamped service history up until the beginning of this year.

Stheno

Paragraphs OP, PARAGRAPHS!

My eyes hurt now.

On the tax issue, tbh I think that's caveat emptor, if it's a 2008 and pre June 2008 then it's on cc tax, not emissions, so that may be where you got caught.

You could do a motorcheck history on your car if you are concerned about it, and possibly report the garage if you believe your old car has been clocked?

djimi

Im not really sure what comeback you are expecting, unless you can somehow prove that the garage misled you?

Its not that hard to check the tax online; it really is up to you to know what you are buying in fairness. Even with the best will in the world sales people can make mistakes.

Odyssey 2005

Was the car automatic by any chance.
Autos are much more expensive to tax than the same model in manual. Dealer may have gotten mixed up,

googleyed

I was just posting to see if anyone had ever been in a similar situation.I suppose I'm more annoyed with myself more than anything else that I was caught out. I'd normally check everything like that but what with being up the walls at work, two little boys at home to look after and the missus in hospital having the third I took my eye off the ball. Things were hectic at the time.
I did ask and he either genuinely made a mistake or completely misled me. I really do think he conned me by the way.It was just the attitude of the garage when I queried it that really annoyed me. I was courteous and civil but got the head taken off me by her!
And then when I see my old car with the mileage altered it really pisses me off! Should I use this as a bargaining tool to get some sort of gesture of goodwill - be it a few free services or the timing belt being done when it needs to be done.
Or I should I just report them to save someone else being conned by them?

visual

Dealer is correct the motor tax isn't under his/her control. VRT and motor tax is something we can all get caught out on.

The clocking is an offence full stop.

If he has clocked your old car it would be a reasonable presumption to be very suspicious about the mileage of your newer car.

Get a cartel check and if possible ( may not be ) ask previous owner the mileage they sold it at.

Really hate dealers ( and private individuals) who clock cars only way it can be curtailed is reporting it.


Edit : just seen your last post about blackmailing the dealer or doing the right thing and reporting the Dealer.

If you report the dealer you are stopping someone else being defrauded and if you discover your new car is also clocked it will strengthen your case to make a claim.

aaakev

Sounds like a genuine mistake to me tbh. I really dont know what you expect the dealer to do about it now, he is not going to pay your tax....

I wouldnt be jumping to conclusions ether about your old car being clocked. Iv had the mileage go up wrong on ads before when i put it up in km instead of miles or visa versa... Worth checking out tho before you report him and waist his, yours and who ever elses time!

djimi

visual wrote: »

Dealer is correct the motor tax isn't under his/her control. VRT and motor tax is something we can all get caught out on.

The clocking is an offence full stop.

If he has clocked your old car it would be a reasonable presumption to be very suspicious about the mileage of your newer car.

Get a cartel check and if possible ( may not be ) ask previous owner the mileage they sold it at.

Really hate dealers ( and private individuals) who clock cars only way it can be curtailed is reporting it.

Unfortunately with the clocking he hasnt committed an offence he sells the car and doesnt inform the buyer that the mileage has been altered.

Edit: thats not to say that I agree with the practice or that this bloke isnt dodgy as **** (in reality it is highly unlikely that he will be telling the buyer anything); its just that reporting him now probably wont do much good.

googleyed

I fully understand that the dealer doesn't set the car tax rate. But on the other hand, is it unreasonable to assume that a dealer when questioned should know the tax band of a car that he is trying to sell? And if questioned should give an honest and accurate answer?

djimi

googleyed wrote: »

I fully understand that the dealer doesn't set the car tax rate. But on the other hand, is it unreasonable to assume that a dealer when questioned should know the tax band of a car that he is trying to sell? And if questioned should give an honest and accurate answer?

Like I said, anyone can make a mistake. Ultimately you are the one who will be paying the tax; its up to you to know how much it is going to cost to run the car that you are buying. Its nor hard to find out the tax rates online (stick the reg into the motor tax website and it will tell you).

ironclaw

googleyed wrote: »

It needed a service, NCT and new tyres so I agreed to pick it up the following week.

Why would a reputable garage have a car on the forecourt ready to sell that needed that much work done to it? You do all that before you try and sell a car. Also the fact she was happy to drop €300 further off the price and the clocking of your own car.

Sorry, all screams dodgy to me.

Tax is a non issue. Thats up to the buyer to know and check. Its easy to make a mistake.

MugMugs

googleyed wrote: »

I fully understand that the dealer doesn't set the car tax rate. But on the other hand, is it unreasonable to assume that a dealer when questioned should know the tax band of a car that he is trying to sell? And if questioned should give an honest and accurate answer?

He shouldn't have given you an incorrect figure but you should have checked out yourself how much it would cost to tax your own car.

Stheno wrote: »

On the tax issue, tbh I think that's caveat emptor, if it's a 2008 and pre June 2008 then it's on cc tax, not emissions, so that may be where you got caught.

Pre June can be put to co2 if cheaper.

visual

djimi wrote: »

Unfortunately with the clocking he hasnt committed an offence he sells the car and doesnt inform the buyer that the mileage has been altered.

Edit: thats not to say that I agree with the practice or that this bloke isnt dodgy as **** (in reality it is highly unlikely that he will be telling the buyer anything); its just that reporting him now probably wont do much good.

How very wrong you are. Tell that to the judge just before he awards full refund of purchase price back to customer and full court cost. Then proceeds to do you for fraud.

aaakev

ironclaw wrote: »

Why would a reputable garage have a car on the forecourt ready to sell that needed that much work done to it? You do all that before you try and sell a car. Also the fact she was happy to drop €300 further off the price and the clocking of your own car.

Sorry, all screams dodgy to me.

i dont do service work on vehicles until they are sold ether. No point servicing a car and leaving it sitting there for sometimes months before its sold, best to do this as the car is sold

djimi

visual wrote: »

How very wrong you are. Tell that to the judge just before he awards full refund of purchase price back to customer and full court cost. Then proceeds to do you for fraud.

Seems I left out a keyword: he hasnt committed an offence until he sells the car and doesnt inform the buyer that the mileage has been altered

The physical act of clocking a car is not illegal in Ireland; the offence is selling the car and not informing the buyer that the mileage has been altered. Reporting him now wont do much good as he is yet to have committed fraud.

visual

djimi wrote: »

Seems I left out a keyword: he hasnt committed an offence until he sells the car and doesnt inform the buyer that the mileage has been altered

The physical act of clocking a car is not illegal in Ireland; the offence is selling the car and not informing the buyer that the mileage has been altered. Reporting him now wont do much good as he is yet to have committed fraud.

I do agree with this statement but once advertised for sale then the intention to defraud can be made. I know in UK they visit garages and prosecute dealers for having clocked cars on their premises for sale by trading standards.
It's a criminal offence both here and in UK but enforcement here leaves a lot to be desired.

djimi

visual wrote: »

I do agree with this statement but once advertised for sale then the intention to defraud can be made. I know in UK they visit garages and prosecute dealers for having clocked cars on their premises for sale by trading standards.
It's a criminal offence both here and in UK but enforcement here leaves a lot to be desired.

Is the physical act of altering the mileage a criminal offence in Ireland? I dont think that it is to be honest.

I also dont see how someone could be done for intention to defraud; the act of fraud would not have been committed until the deal was completed, as the dealer could inform the buyer about the altered mileage at any time before completion.