FG and its assualt on democracy.

Bullseye1

Okay we have heard all the arguments for and against the abolition of the Seanad, saving 20 million seems like a very weak argument when put up against some meaningful reform of the institution. This and the abolition of town councils strikes me as FG's attempt to centralise government even further and remove local government completely. With the introduction of the property tax and future water charges we seem to be getting less say and paying more taxes.

We also hear that decisions are made by few individuals within government with little or no input from backbenchers.

The attempt by the current administration to bring in unprecedented powers of investigation, rightly rejected by the public.

Are people not concerned where FG in particular are taking us politically?

PRAF

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Okay we have heard all the arguments for and against the abolition of the Seanad, saving 20 million seems like a very weak argument when put up against some meaningful reform of the institution. This and the abolition of town councils strikes me as FG's attempt to centralise government even further and remove local government completely. With the introduction of the property tax and future water charges we seem to be getting less say and paying more taxes.

We also hear that decisions are made by few individuals within government with little or no input from backbenchers.

The attempt by the current administration to bring in unprecedented powers of investigation, rightly rejected by the public.

Are people not concerned where FG in particular are taking us politically?

Whatever about retaining or abolishing the Seaned, all they are doing is putting it to the people. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with that. I've learned more about the Seanad in the last 2 months than I have done in the last 20 years. I'd wager than until it was brought up in this campaign, very few people knew what article 27 was. I am voting Yes to abolish it but I do value many of the contributions that were made from the No camp. In short, it was a debate worth having and that is the very essence of democracy.

Regarding local government, people really do have short memories. The only real power local govt had for years was around planning. We all know what an absolute mess they made of that. A quick look around the various ghost estates, homes built on flood plains, pyrite infested homes, unsafe apartment complexes, etc. will confirm that. If local government actually worked there would be no need to be asking your local TD to fix your potholes. The govt are right to look into reforming local govt. Properly funding local govt is a good start (albeit that nobody likes property taxes). Reducing the ludicrous town councils is another. We need fewer local politicans but better ones.

I think the economic management council is a bit of a red herring. Any decisions they make need to be examined and approved at Cabinet level before they become govt decisions.

golfball37

The Seanad will still exist for the lifetime of this government so the accusations of a power grab by FG are off the mark imo.

raymon

It is up to the people to decide. Not FG

FF / FG / Lab all agreed to address the issue , except Fianna Fail reneged.

I voted yes today to abolish this old folks doss house.

Bullseye1

The people had no say on the abolition of town councils.

PRAF

Bullseye1 wrote: »

The people had no say on the abolition of town councils.

I'm not sure that the people had no say in this. This was recommended in the Bord Snip Nua report as commissioned by FF. It was then included in the FG manifesto. They said that they would review Local Government with a view to making it more efficient (i.e. cuts). Labour also pledged to reform local government, ensure better value for money, etc. So pretty much all the main political parties were advocating local government reform.

It was not surprising to be honest. There were something like 120 councils in Ireland. That is absolute madness. No point in have that many powerful councils operating in a country as small as ours. It was just jobs for the boys and a scandalous waste of money

Bullseye1

It was a waste of money before the introduction of the Property Tax and Water Tax. Now that these are being paid over people should have a greater say on how it is spent in their area.

The_Minister

You forgot how the Army and the Gardaí now answer to the one man.

micosoft

The_Minister wrote: »

You forgot how the Army and the Gardaí now answer to the one man.

I was unaware the Gardai were commanded by the President as well?

hmmm

We've survived for nearly a 100 years with a useless Senate so forgive me if I don't share your terror at the prospect of its abolition. Any government could have chosen to try and reform the Senate and none have bothered, I don't know why any voter would believe politicians now who are having a sudden Road to Damascus moment and promising reform (if you would just let them keep their 80 grand a year job).

Harry Angstrom

Yes, because The Seanad is such a paragon of democracy, isn't it? :rolleyes:
The Seanad numbers are always stacked in favour of the Government of the day, so how is that democratic? It's only in the past couple of months that the senators have awoken from their deep slumber and tried flexing their collective muscle. Far too little, far too late. Close the place down and be done with it. It will be no great loss to democracy.

tipptom

Gombeens got to vote them in,we get to vote them out,democracy bites back,whats not to like:P