Prison USA, Drug Wars, and Special Interests

Black Swan

This topic appeared as a post on another US Politics thread, and justified a new OP and posts.

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

The United States has the largest prison population in the world, ranked #1, with 2,193,798 prisoners, way ahead of China and Russia. Plus, "Prison rates in the US are the world's highest, at 724 people per 100,000. In Russia the rate is 581."

The criminal justice system (and its prisons) are big business in the US. That's why in America for the past 3 decades they have had prisons-for-profit that are traded (e.g., NYSE: CCA) on their public stock exchanges; i.e., taxpayer monies flow into these growing, massive for-profit-prisons. Just like businesses need customer growth and sales to increase profits, prisons-for-profit need a growing number of prisoners and taxpayer monies to show their stockholders ROI (Return On Investment). More prisoners = more profits: "Fluctuations in our operating results because of... changes in occupancy levels" (SEC Form 10-K).

Some may claim that privatizing prisons and making profits off prisoners (stocks and dividends) is the way to go. Then again, "Idaho's largest prison acknowledged Thursday that its employees falsified nearly 4,800 hours of staffing records over seven months last year in violation of its contract with the state." This prison is owned and operated by America's largest prison-for-profit corporation (NYSE: CCA).

Prisons-for-profit are very political, and have spent many millions over the years to lobby and influence the US Congress. It's been reported that former (Republican) Vice President Dick Cheney had been indicted for a conflict of interests for investments in prison-for-profit corporation GEO while he was VP.

Why does the United States put more people in prison than any other country in the world?

SupaNova2

Black Swan wrote: »

Why does the United States put more people in prison than any other country in the world?

The answer to that is simple right? The war on drugs. Or do you mean why does the US pursue the war on drugs and let its prison population swell?

But I think you've already got that. From the other thread:

Unfortunately there are huge blocks of voters in America that vote for politicians that favour prohibition in accordance with their belief systems, misinformation, or both.

thomur

SupaNova2 wrote: »

The answer to that is simple right? The war on drugs. Or do you mean why does the US pursue the war on drugs and let its prison population swell?

But I think you've already got that. From the other thread:

The United States have it right. Never hear of a knack with 100 plus convictions there

SupaNova2

thomur wrote: »

The United States have it right. Never hear of a knack with 100 plus convictions there

Explain to me what a knack is?
And can you give me an example of someone with over 100 convictions here?

Black Swan

Lockup quotas occur in contracts between states and prison-for-profit corporations that guarantees the corporation they will be paid for a minimum number of prisoners, even if the actual number of prisoners falls below that number. So there is an incentive for the courts and states to keep the private prisons full, or face criticism from politicians and voters when paying for empty beds.

SupaNova2

Black Swan wrote: »

Lockup quotas occur in contracts between states and prison-for-profit corporations that guarantees the corporation they will be paid for a minimum number of prisoners, even if the actual number of prisoners falls below that number. So there is an incentive for the courts and states to keep the private prisons full, or face criticism from politicians and voters when paying for empty beds.

Quotas in police departments although very hush hush are even more destructive and are set to make sure everyone pulls their weight. That puts pressure on police to aggressively pursue any tiny crime, or make a crime out of a non crime. Imagine setting similar quotas for a fire department making sure they have to put out a certain number of fires, well if there is a month when there aren't any fires to put out, the firemen just might end up starting some.

nagilum2

This is correct. The US Prison system has become a social jobs program. There are entire very poor, usually rural towns that are built around getting a prison. It's one of the few places where no skill workers can earn a decent salary. Unfortunately the very perverse incentive is to keep people in them even if is might not be the best policy for the larger society. And when you're talking about draconian laws against nonviolent drug offenders, it's definitely not in the best interests of society.

Overheal

This philosophy doesn't just extend to prisons, but there have been more than a case or two where local prisons were used immorally.

http://www.jacksonfreepress.com/news/2012/oct/24/doj-lauderdale-county-violates-students-rights/

JACKSON (AP) — Authorities in east Mississippi run a "school-to-prison pipeline" that locks up students for infractions like flatulence or wearing the wrong color socks, a policy that mainly affects black and disabled children, the U.S. Justice Department said Wednesday in a federal lawsuit.

#The lawsuit filed in U.S. District Court in Jackson says officials in the city of Meridian and Lauderdale County have policies that allow students to be arrested and shipped 80 miles to a juvenile detention center without probable cause or legal representation. The defendants in the lawsuit are the city of Meridian, Lauderdale County, the two Lauderdale County Youth Court judges, the Mississippi Department of Human Services and DHS's Division of Youth Services.

#The Meridian Public School District is not named as a defendant, but the lawsuit says incarceration is used as a "medium for school discipline."

#"For example, some Behavior Intervention Plans prepared by the district for students with disabilities have listed 'Juvenile Detention Center' as a consequence for student misbehavior," the lawsuit said.

#A DHS spokeswoman said the agency doesn't comment on pending litigation. The mayor of Meridian, the governor's office and the youth court judges didn't immediately respond to messages. The police chief referred questions to a city attorney, who didn't immediately return a call.

#The lawsuit claims Meridian police routinely arrest students without determining whether there is probable cause when a school wants to press charges, and the students are routinely jailed. The lawsuit says the students are sent more than 80 miles to the Rankin County youth detention center because the one in Lauderdale County closed earlier this year "because of longstanding legal battles over the conditions of confinement."

#Once arrested, the students end up on probation, sometimes without proper legal representation, according to the lawsuit. If the students are on probation, future school violations could be considered a violation that requires them to serve the suspension incarcerated in the juvenile detention center.

#That means students can be incarcerated for "dress code infractions such as wearing the wrong color socks or undershirt, or for having shirts untucked; tardies; flatulence in class; using vulgar language; yelling at teachers; and going to the bathroom or leaving the classroom without permission."

And if this is the same incident that I'm thinking of the whole thing was basically a racket between the school, prison and the local justice.

Then you have problems of a corrupt system that don't just apply to incarceration. You may or may not have heard of Cottageville, South Carolina. One of the many spots in the United States where there is a speed trap set up and you can even be pulled over for playing your car stereo too loudly. The 2-lane stretch of highway goes from 45mph to 35mph just as you enter the town and it widens up to 4-lanes. Officers according to some accounts you can find online, are liberal about the speed limit market too. According to some accounts the blue lights come on before the driver even reaches the markers, trying to argue the motorist didn't slow down when it came into sight, and not by the time they reached it. It's part of Colleton County and is way out in the middle of nowhere relative to anything else. So the town at some point decided to set up its own police force. Except that the problem the town has, is in order to keep the books balanced, they have to write tickets to support the town which has an otherwise seemingly low crime rate/rate of tax/other sources of income. You can find audio excerpts online of a private meeting between the former Mayor/Police Chief (yep... Police State incarnate) and one of his officers, telling him basically to write his quota of tickets or find another job url]http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/12/1216.asp[/url. Every ticket written in Cottageville of course, is a city ordinance, and carries no points. Officers will give you the choice of course, but the state penalty they will fine you the absolute maximum fee and points for if you want to "fight the man". So its a fight between a $400/4pt speeding ticket, and $200 of highway robbery. No reductions entertained in traffic court, either. I've had nicer cops after T-boning someone while driving through a red light ffs.

As for the audio: former Mayor Reeves resigned in 2006 after testing positive for marijuana following an incident where he wrecked his truck - while speeding. Some years later he got into a feud with an officer about enforcing the law against an employee of his who had been driving recklessly under the influence, and it boiled down to an incident a month later in 2011 where Reeves forced the officer to fire on him. Its still the subject of an ongoing case. Meanwhile, Cottageville is still a place I prefer to think doesn't exist: when i go to Florida now I take the long way around the I95/I26 Interchange

Amerika

Black Swan wrote: »

Why does the United States put more people in prison than any other country in the world?

The high prison population was due to drug penalties. Because of the crack epidemic in the 80’s, federal and state legislatures began passing mandatory-minimum sentences for drug crimes. But the laws put too many low-level users into long prison sentences, causing the prison population to grow. About 10 years ago Texas passed a law that sent low-level and non-violent drug offenders to treatment rather than prison. When the financial crisis hit, others started copying the Texas model, and since then the number of Americans in prisons has dropped.

Black Swan

Prison population growth in the United States has been extraordinary. The huge spike at the end may be associated with the War on Drugs, tougher sentencing, or both?



It's also interesting to note that the number of women imprisoned in the United States has also increased dramatically over time.

Black Swan

Interesting story on "Building a Prison Economy in Rural America" suggesting that when the rural economy declined in the United States, building and operating many new prisons became the "New Growth Industry." There are now more prisoners than farmers in the US.

nagilum2

I wish I could take credit for the below, but it actually comes from a comment left in THIS piece about the prison-industrial complex - calling out both prison guard unions and private prison companies that benefit from keeping people locked up:

It is a national shame that the U.S., the land of the free, the home of the brave, has the largest prison population in the world.

There are too many people who benefit from the industrial prison complex – consequently they perpetuate this system regardless of the long term consequences.

More, there are too many Americans who either don’t think about the issue or worse feel that those prisoners “got theirs”.

The long term effects to society are pernicious – in the black community, prison no longer has the stigma that foster deterrence. Now too often, prison is seen as a cost of doing business.

Black Swan

nagilum2 wrote: »

I wish I could take credit for the below, but it actually comes from a comment left in THIS piece about the prison-industrial complex - calling out both prison guard unions and private prison companies that benefit from keeping people locked up:

Interesting Forbes business magazine article indeed. The largest prisons-for-profit corporation traded on the NYSE:CCA has been in business for 30 years (NYSE: GEO is the 2nd largest), and has been lobbying to open prisons-for-profit in all 50 states. It's big business and a growth industry in the United States where stockholders can realise ROI (Return On Investment) by imprisoning more Americans.

Companies such as the Geo Group and CCA do not earn their money by providing goods or services to customers. Rather, they make their money solely from the government, and solely for locking human beings in cages, mostly for non-violent offenses. Further, these companies actively lobby for unjust laws, largely using the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC), a corporatist conservative political group.

Black Swan

Compare the latest 2013 imprisonment rate between the US and Ireland. We are at the bottom of the list (85/100,000) and the US is on top (753/100,000). Quite a difference indeed. The US is ranked #1 not only against Europe, but also the world in both rates of imprisonment per 100,000, as well as having the largest number of prisoners in the world.

Mjollnir

SupaNova2 wrote: »

Quotas in police departments although very hush hush are even more destructive and are set to make sure everyone pulls their weight. That puts pressure on police to aggressively pursue any tiny crime, or make a crime out of a non crime. Imagine setting similar quotas for a fire department making sure they have to put out a certain number of fires, well if there is a month when there aren't any fires to put out, the firemen just might end up starting some.

Ahem. Utter fantasy land nonsense.

I have worked in two police departments now since 2001, both in major CA cities.

There are no quotas. None. Not for arrests. Not for handing out traffic citations. Zero. Nada.

You have no idea what you're blathering about.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

clairefontaine

Mjollnir wrote: »

Ahem. Utter fantasy land nonsense.

I have worked in two police departments now since 2001, both in major CA cities.

There are no quotas. None. Not for arrests. Not for handing out traffic citations. Zero. Nada.

You have no idea what you're blathering about.

NYPD has quotas. Got it from the horses mouth on a tapped phone from Times Square.

clairefontaine

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Hold up. Isn't it the case that even the public prisons have very very expensive private contracts, for food, uniforms, sheets, materials etc? Isn't it the case that prisoners are forced to work while incarcerated for companies such as http://moorbey.wordpress.com/2013/04/16/companies-using-prison-labor/?

This might be the one issue I'm a mushy lefty on. Prison needs radical reform. And I mean radical, borderline revolutionary. The set up is constitutionally unjustifiable, and lets start with slave labor.

Black Swan

clairefontaine wrote: »

The set up is constitutionally unjustifiable, and lets start with slave labor.

Amendment XIII, Section 1.

"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

"O'er the land of the free and the home of..." the largest prison population in the world.

clairefontaine

Black Swan wrote: »

Amendment XIII, Section 1.

Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Yes we'll they have to ammend that amendment.

Black Swan

Amerika wrote: »

About 10 years ago Texas passed a law that sent low-level and non-violent drug offenders to treatment rather than prison.

According to the PRB (Population Reference Bureau in 2010) "Texas ranks second in the rate of incarceration (648/100,000)" contributing greatly to the #1 world imprisonment position of the United States. In comparison, Ireland's rate of incarceration was only 85/100,000 (see earlier chart).

clairefontaine wrote: »

Yes we'll they have to ammend that amendment.

Republican President Dwight D. Eisenhower (1961) cautioned American citizens about the power and influence of the "military-industrial complex." Although a smaller part of the federal and state budgets than the military, to what extent does the US have a very powerful and influential Judicial-Prison-Industrial Complex (for lack of a name)? This Complex may be too powerful to allow for the state by state ratification of an amendment to the US Constitution.

Is there any evidence of bloat in this Complex that thrives off the extraordinary growth (by world standards) of the US jail and prison population beginning with Republican President Nixon's War on Drugs (1971), along with the increasing appropriation of taxpayer dollars to pay for this dramatic growth? The US Bureau of Labor Statistics reports that there were 434,870 correctional officers (prison guards) and jailors employed in the US May 2012, with a mean (average) annual wage of $43,550. How many prison or jail guards do they have per prisoner? Probably considerably more guards per prisoner than teachers per student in their K-12 educational systems?

nagilum2

California has built 23 prisons since 1980. In the same period, the University of California system has opened one new campus. And although California's prison population has declined in recent years, the state's spending per prisoner has increased five times faster than its spending per K-12 student in the last two decades.

SOURCE

Whether private companies or not, clearly lots of interest groups are benefiting off the prison-industrial complex. Case in point:

California Prison Academy: Better Than a Harvard Degree
Prison guards can retire at the age of 55 and earn 85% of their final year's salary for the rest of their lives. They also continue to receive medical benefits

The job might not sound glamorous, but a brochure from the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitations boasts that it "has been called 'the greatest entry-level job in California'—and for good reason. Our officers earn a great salary, and a retirement package you just can't find in private industry. We even pay you to attend our academy." That's right—instead of paying more than $200,000 to attend Harvard, you could earn $3,050 a month at cadet academy.

It gets better.

Training only takes four months, and upon graduating you can look forward to a job with great health, dental and vision benefits and a starting base salary between $45,288 and $65,364. By comparison, Harvard grads can expect to earn $49,897 fresh out of college and $124,759 after 20 years.

As a California prison guard, you can make six figures in overtime and bonuses alone. While Harvard-educated lawyers and consultants often have to work long hours with little recompense besides Chinese take-out, prison guards receive time-and-a-half whenever they work more than 40 hours a week. One sergeant with a base salary of $81,683 collected $114,334 in overtime and $8,648 in bonuses last year, and he's not even the highest paid.

Sure, Harvard grads working in the private sector get bonuses, too, but only if they're good at what they do. Prison guards receive a $1,560 "fitness" bonus just for getting an annual check-up.

Most Harvard grads only get three weeks of vacation each year, even after working for 20 years—and they're often too busy to take a long trip. Prison guards, on the other hand, get seven weeks of vacation, five of them paid. If they're too busy racking up overtime to use their vacation days, they can cash the days in when they retire. There's no cap on how many vacation days they can cash in! Eighty officers last year cashed in over $100,000 at retirement.

The cherry on top is the defined-benefit pension. Unlike most Harvard grads working in the private sector, prison guards don't have to delay retirement if their 401(k)s take a hit. Prison guards can retire at the age of 55 and earn 85% of their final year's salary for the rest of their lives. They also continue to receive medical benefits.

Now think about a couple hundred folks making that kind of money in a small town economy, and you start to see why everyone wants a prison. Why would anyone want to let anyone go? It would spoil the gravy train.

rockonollie

Graphs of prison population growth always look extreme........because it looks like an exponential climb when you don't consider the national population growth.

Overheal

rockonollie wrote: »

Graphs of prison population growth always look extreme........because it looks like an exponential climb when you don't consider the national population growth.

Look again. the 2 trends arent so directly related, the rate of prison growth in recent decades has far outstripped the rate of population growth. Compare 1920-1980 with 1980-present

Black Swan

Black Swan wrote: »

Compare the latest 2013 imprisonment rate between the US and Ireland. We are at the bottom of the list (85/100,000) and the US is on top (753/100,000). Quite a difference indeed. The US is ranked #1 not only against Europe, but also the world in... rates of imprisonment per 100,000...

rockonollie wrote: »

Graphs of prison population growth always look extreme........because it looks like an exponential climb when you don't consider the national population growth.

Population growth in the United States does not account for the extraordinary imprisonment rate per 100,000 population. This "rate" controls for population. The US is #1 in imprisonment rate; i.e., they imprison more persons per 100,000 population than any other nation on earth. Why?

Jonny7

rockonollie wrote: »

Graphs of prison population growth always look extreme........because it looks like an exponential climb when you don't consider the national population growth.

Yeah I checked this and when done as a percentage of US pop (or per 100,000) there has been a dramatic exponential increase

The war on drugs appears to be the main culprit. The admin made some recent amendments and there has been a drop this year apparently (for the first time in decades)

Jonny7

nagilum2 wrote: »

Now think about a couple hundred folks making that kind of money in a small town economy, and you start to see why everyone wants a prison. Why would anyone want to let anyone go? It would spoil the gravy train.

Most prison guards in Europe also get paid very well

The figures, published yesterday, show that in December 2008 the average weekly wage of a prison officer was €1,219.39, with a garda earning €1,158.88 per week.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/archives/2009/0404/world/prison-officers-and-gardai-rank-as-highest-paid-88525.html

However, my friends aren't all rushing to become prison guards - it's not exactly a desirable job, nor without it's inherent risks and stigma

Jonny7

Jonny7 wrote: »

Most prison guards in Europe also get paid very well

The figures, published yesterday, show that in December 2008 the average weekly wage of a prison officer was €1,219.39, with a garda earning €1,158.88 per week.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/archives/2009/0404/world/prison-officers-and-gardai-rank-as-highest-paid-88525.html

However, my friends aren't all rushing to become prison guards - it's not exactly a desirable job, nor without it's inherent risks and stigma

Coupla things, average is including all the older lads and their benefits and includes overtime and everything else. Still nowhere near the typical pay in America. And they actually don't get to retire as early, which is a rarity in "socialist" Europe.

Jonny7

Deleted User wrote: »

Coupla things, average is including all the older lads and their benefits and includes overtime and everything else. Still nowhere near the typical pay in America. And they actually don't get to retire as early, which is a rarity in "socialist" Europe.

The typical pay in the US is $41,340 per year which is approx 30,000 euros

"The top 10 percent received a mean $64,110 annually, or $30.82 hourly, while the bottom 10 percent made $25,300 annually, or $12.16 hourly." that's the 2011 US labour stats

Seems a lot better paid over here.

rockonollie

Jonny7 wrote: »

The typical pay in the US is $41,340 per year which is approx 30,000 euros

"The top 10 percent received a mean $64,110 annually, or $30.82 hourly, while the bottom 10 percent made $25,300 annually, or $12.16 hourly." that's the 2011 US labour stats

Seems a lot better paid over here.

But you can't compare wages without considering cost of living, which is much lower in the US than in europe. Just take the price of petrol, where I live the average is currently $3.28/2.42Euro per gallon $0.87/0.64Euro per litre

Jonny7

rockonollie wrote: »

But you can't compare wages without considering cost of living, which is much lower in the US than in europe. Just take the price of petrol, where I live the average is currently $3.28/2.42Euro per gallon $0.87/0.64Euro per litre

I have a few friends over there, the cost of living is generally lower - there's a price comparison website, works out about 15 to 20% cheaper (obviously depending on where you live)

That said, US prison guard salaries are not astronomical - they seem to be in line with most European countries.. the point I was making is that Irish prison officers actually make more on average.

nagilum2

Jonny7 wrote: »

I have a few friends over there, the cost of living is generally lower - there's a price comparison website, works out about 15 to 20% cheaper (obviously depending on where you live)

That said, US prison guard salaries are not astronomical - they seem to be in line with most European countries.. the point I was making is that Irish prison officers actually make more on average.

It's not the salaries as much as the overtime and pensions

Jonny7

Jonny7 wrote: »

The typical pay in the US is $41,340 per year which is approx 30,000 euros

"The top 10 percent received a mean $64,110 annually, or $30.82 hourly, while the bottom 10 percent made $25,300 annually, or $12.16 hourly." that's the 2011 US labour stats

Seems a lot better paid over here.

Doesn't tally for the California stats earlier.

Jonny7

Looking into it a bit more..

The average pay for a state employee varies a lot from state to state

It's approx $33,000 (MO) up to $83,000 (DE)

Corrections officers range from

$28,000 (MO) up to $91,000 (RI)

Huge variance, which also seems to be the same across Europe. The Californian prison system seems one of the more attractive, but with a 1% acceptance rate, it's obviously highly sought after.

MonaPizza

thomur wrote: »

The United States have it right. Never hear of a knack with 100 plus convictions there

Or dozens of innocent people put to death here.

clairefontaine

You also realise the US incarcerates for things other countries will put you to death for.

Black Swan

It's always good to cite your sources on this Prison USA thread, as well as others in the US Politics forum. If you don't someone may call you on it as occurred recently for US Senator Rand Paul (and VP Joe Biden in the 1980s), when he had written an article that commented about the American prison problem for the Washington Times.

Dan Stewart had written an essay for The Week, posted 14 September 2013: “America now jails a higher percentage of its citizens than any other country, including China and Iran, at the staggering cost of $80 billion a year.”

Rand Paul wrote 20 September 2013: “America now jails a higher percentage of its citizens than any other country, including China and Iran, at the staggering cost of $80 billion a year.”

In a lively debate here, we all may sometimes forget to do so (when we should give sources their due). More importantly, citations can support and strengthen your position.

clairefontaine

Black Swan wrote: »

It's always good to cite your sources on this Prison USA thread, as well as others in the US Politics forum. If you don't someone may call you on it as occurred recently for US Senator Rand Paul (and VP Joe Biden in the 1980s), when he had written an article that commented about the American prison problem for the Washington Times.

Dan Stewart had written an essay for The Week, posted 14 September 2013: “America now jails a higher percentage of its citizens than any other country, including China and Iran, at the staggering cost of $80 billion a year.”

Rand Paul wrote 20 September 2013: “America now jails a higher percentage of its citizens than any other country, including China and Iran, at the staggering cost of $80 billion a year.”

In a lively debate here, we all may sometimes forget to do so (when we should give sources their due). More importantly, citations can support and strengthen your position.

I'm sorry, I don't understand. Are you worried about plagiarism on boards?

joseph brand

Anyone remember Mark Ciavarella?

By Sarah Siskind, Wed, July 31, 2013
Former Luzerne County Judge Mark Ciavarella Jr. was sentenced to serve 28 years in federal prison two years ago. Last week, a federal appeals court said it would not reconsider a decision upholding the ruling.

Ciaverella, 61, was convicted of racketeering charges for receiving $1 million in bribes from a constructor of juvenile detention facilities. The judge had violated individual rights for at least 4,000 cases between 2003 and 2008, denying defendants the right to counsel and the right to intelligently enter a plea.

However, it was Ciavarella who made a name for himself as the draconian, cold arm of the law. Ciavarella filled the beds of juvenile detention centers with first-time offenders, convicts of minor-crimes and children as young as 10 years old.

Fortunately, that same arm of the law has turned on the man now known as the "kids-for-cash" judge.

I found his behaviour to be as disgusting as the rampant paedophilia in the church.

Afaik, Ciavarella's criminal actions came to light after a young man (Edward Kenzakoski) died by suicide after his life took a downward spiral after being sentenced by the 'kids-for-cash' judge, despite his first-time offender status.

How the hell does anyone think profiting-from-prisoners is a good idea? It's obvious that the owners, just like in any other business, will look to; expand their market and increase profits. Society wants needs to reduce, not increase, the amount of criminals (those who find it impossible to find employment due to criminal record).

Amerika

Citing sources is always a good thing. But a little word of caution here, regarding citations to support and strengthen your position, is recommended -- depending if you are posting from a position of the Right rather than the Left. Although the Left can cite sources like HufPo, Salon or Slate as definitive proof of undeniable truisms, the same cannot be said of Right leaning sources. If you happen to cite sources from the likes of FoxNews, Drudge or NRO, you will often be met by the opposition with ad hominem attacks, who will automatically condemn the source (without reading it of course) as nothing more than pure propaganda. If you do happen get the urge to cite a Right leaning source, I would suggest you copy pertinent lines from the article and do a google search to locate an alternate (less offensive to the Left) source in which to cite. I realize it’s a little more work for those on the Right, but it saves you aggravation and wasted effort dealing with the double standards.

joseph brand

clairefontaine wrote: »

You also realise the US incarcerates for things other countries will put you to death for.

What 'things'?

What countries*?

*I know you're not going to mention any Scandinavian / European countries. Maybe you're thinking of China, Iran, Iraq, Sudan or Somalia?

Amerika

joseph brand wrote: »

Anyone remember Mark Ciavarella?

Although the "kids for cash" scandal involving judges Ciavarella and Conahan was terrible, it was not shocking in these parts. This scandal happened in my neck of the woods, and corruption by judges is almost a given, as judges here never seem to think they are paid enough to do the job. And if you think it’s bad here, it’s nothing compared to NYC. If you get sued in NYC, your lawyer will advise you to also hire a NYC lawyer depending on the judge assigned to the case. The opposing party’s lawyer will have sources that make contributions to the judges election coffers, and you will need your lawyer to find a way to do the same. The most donations to the judge usually gets the favorable ruling in the case.

clairefontaine

Sesame Street added a new character whose father is in prison so that kids can have some help dealing with their dad in prison.

Thank you Sesame Street for normalising this. :mad:

SupaNova2

Mjollnir wrote: »

Ahem. Utter fantasy land nonsense.

I have worked in two police departments now since 2001, both in major CA cities.

There are no quotas. None. Not for arrests. Not for handing out traffic citations. Zero. Nada.

You have no idea what you're blathering about.

Only noticed this now. Are all these police officers fantasizing:
http://autos.aol.com/article/police-usa-traffic-ticket-quotas-budgets/
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/07/29/former-alabama-cop-claims-was-fired-after-blowing-whistle-on-ticket-quotas/
http://www.apbweb.com/featured-articles/2287-cops-fight-back-over-ticket-quotas.html
http://www.nj.com/essex/index.ssf/2013/03/east_orange_police_tickets_quo.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3oqz5PbJEE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGeZiWOeGIc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RZ0WIxQAgo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3mmuZsHmv8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DWjdHQZCXU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVkkhkLSqWE

Maybe you called them "activity goals".