New clutch dispute

cantdecide

TL;DR

Got a new clutch and flywheel and a fortnight after it was fitted, it's goosed again. The garage reckon it's out fault.







My mother has a '04 115bhp TDI Passat. She bought it back in 2006 when it had 50,000 miles. The car has almost 120,000 miles now and about 6 weeks ago it started running rough and vibrating through the clutch pedal. It was diagnosed as being the DMF. We were told it was starting to go but just keep an eye on it. My mother drives the car 90% of the time but my dad uses it occasionally and I'll use it when it's too wet for motorbiking.

It didn't worsen but we decided we needed to not put it on the long finger so went to the local SEAT main dealer who we've used before. We spoke about converting it to a solid flywheel but they recommended a spurious DMF replacement. We agreed and the went ahead with the job. This all happened in maybe a four week period.

The car came back running perfectly with virtually no difference to the feel of the clutch which was important to my mum (the biting point in a lot of VAG cars are often in the first 20%/ 30% of the length of the pedal stroke and this was the same as before).

She lives in the countryside and uses the car mainly for shopping in the local town. Two weeks after the job was done, my mother drove into Cork City. She parked in a small yard type car park off the street and went shopping for an hour. She came back to the car and merged into heavy traffic. After 10 minutes and 100m, the car started billowing smoke from under the bonnet. She pulled the car in and a nearby mechanic was sent for. He said the car was stinking of clutch fumes. My mother told him the clutch had just been changed and the mechanic told her to send for them, that he shouldn't touch it if it's just been done.

The garage sent a guy up who drove the car the 15 miles back to our locality to their garage. It was now late Friday afternoon and they said it was definitely a clutch issue- that there was a shudder in the clutch now.

Monday came and the garage rang me. They said that the clutch had been overheated and the pressure plate needed replacing again. They said it would also need another release bearing and other hardware and told me they wanted almost €200 for the work.

I told them that there was absolutely no way because;

-They told us when the kit was fitted that the last pressure plate was 3/4 worn @ 120k and since...

- She'd owned the car 7 years and 70000 miles- she clearly knew how to use the clutch properly and didn't forget how to drive her own car. We had inspected the car and were happy it was virtually the same as before. We all drive the car from time to time. It was a stipulation that the pedal feel had to be close as possible to the original.

-It can't be a coincidence that within a short time of the clutch being changed that a huge clutch issue raises its head. It wasn't 12 months or 6 months later. It was a fortnight.

- They were the last ones to drive it. I don't know why they didn't send a recovery truck- there's no way to know if they hadn't made it worse.

- This was the first occasion in two weeks that the car had been in heavy traffic

-We're all petrol heads and if she were using the clutch wrong, we would have corrected her. She drives fine.

Nevertheless, they're adamant it was user error and they're only obliging us this time and if the car comes back with the same symptoms, they won't be standing over it.

dgt

So they used the old clutch with a new dmf? Why not get a new one?

dgt

Well I'm an idiot..... I'll re read it later when not so busy

TonyStark

Sounds like their responsibility from what you have said. There is no reason why they shouldn't stand over the work. Would seem if there is a problem with the work and they won't make good then it's a matter for the small claims. The further work needed would seem to be due to them touching the car in the first place.

If they couldn't stand over the work they shouldn't have done work on the car in the very first instance. It would seem to me that they have made bad situation worse.

cantdecide

dgt wrote: »

Well I'm an idiot..... I'll re read it later when not so busy

That would be great. I know it's a long story!! Thanks.

TonyStark wrote: »

The further work needed would seem to be due to them touching the car in the first place.

The thing is we don't know why this might happen. Is it a gammy new part or maybe a wrong part for a different model? All we know is that they're pointing their finger at us and as none of us are mechanics, we're having to rely on circumstantial evidence.

cantdecide

Any further thoughts on this, folks?

rex-x

The only way the clutch would stink of fumes would be if it was partially engaged, either by a faulty part (which would be obvious on removal) or by your mother riding it for 10 mins straight, while its impossible for me to say from my couch what is wrong my gut feeling is it was her fault sadly

dgt

cantdecide wrote: »

That would be great. I know it's a long story!! Thanks.

Well after re reading it again, the only way to find out is to whip the box off and see. A possibility the clutch is half engaging due to a faulty slave cylinder, it does look rather strange alright.

A while back I had a Fiesta I was restoring, whacked in a bigger clutch and noticed the pedal wouldn't let it disengage. Turns out the slave cylinder had given up when I took the box out and needed replacing.....

mathepac

I don't believe I've heard of a main VAG dealer (or decent independent) who would change a fly-wheel on one of those PD engines and not fit a clutch-kit at the same time.

Wait now sorry

Clutch-release bearing, slave cylinder, system not bled.

corktina

the bit that worries me is the "biting point crucial to be the same " bit.

It could be that the Mammy has been driving it as she did the old (half-faulty) one and not making allowances for the clutch being new. With the biting point now likely to be at the top of the pedal instead of near the bottom, I would suspect she may well have been riding the pedal....but I wasn't there.

jca

Have you driven the car since the new clutch was fitted? It looks like it was slipping badly and then burned out. They could have put the old clutch on a new flywheel.

Odyssey 2005

I can't believe that a main VAG dealer advised fitting a spurious DMF. The genuine DMF has a two year warranty.:eek:

djimi

corktina wrote: »

the bit that worries me is the "biting point crucial to be the same " bit.

I dont understand this at all to be honest. It might be mildly irritating to have to get used to a new clutch, but any driver who is even remotely competent wouldnt even think about it after a couple of minutes of driving the car.

jca

There's no such thing as a spurious dmf. They're only made by 2 companies luk and sachs. There are huge differences in pricing but in the end the customer is only paying the extra for an oem box.

cantdecide

For the record, they fitted a new pressure plate. I have no reason at this stage to believe they'd fib about that.

rex-x wrote: »

The only way the clutch would stink of fumes would be if it was partially engaged, either by a faulty part (which would be obvious on removal) or by your mother riding it for 10 mins straight, while its impossible for me to say from my couch what is wrong my gut feeling is it was her fault sadly

dgt wrote: »

Well after re reading it again, the only way to find out is to whip the box off and see. A possibility the clutch is half engaging due to a faulty slave cylinder, it does look rather strange alright.

A while back I had a Fiesta I was restoring, whacked in a bigger clutch and noticed the pedal wouldn't let it disengage. Turns out the slave cylinder had given up when I took the box out and needed replacing.....

That's what I was thinking too but I didn't have an opportunity to look into it. Obviously they haven't offered to show us any of the parts at this stage.

corktina wrote: »

the bit that worries me is the "biting point crucial to be the same " bit.

It could be that the Mammy has been driving it as she did the old (half-faulty) one and not making allowances for the clutch being new. With the biting point now likely to be at the top of the pedal instead of near the bottom, I would suspect she may well have been riding the pedal....but I wasn't there.

The old pressure plate was still in decent condition. The biting point was at the start of the pedal stroke before and after the work was done.

djimi wrote: »

I dont understand this at all to be honest. It might be mildly irritating to have to get used to a new clutch, but any driver who is even remotely competent wouldnt even think about it after a couple of minutes of driving the car.

As I've said already, the biting point is very sharp and it's right at the beginning if the pedal stroke. I've seen her drive and when she's in traffic, she over-clutches if anything. She thinks her foot has to be on the carpet before she can touch the gear stick. If anything, she's over-cautious about riding the clutch and always has been. The proof is that her last pressure plate still had tons of meat on it and they volunteered that themselves.

It's just familiarity. She's 60 and this is her fourth car ever and she's just too used to her own car. Although she won't drive other peoples' cars normally, she's driving their courtesy car at the moment and it took her a couple of days to get used to it.

You have missed the point I made that it was crucial that it stayed as close as possible to the original. This was in the context of changing to a solid flywheel or not. The feel of the pedal did stay virtually the same as it always had been. She said it herself that there was barely a difference between old and new. That's what she wanted and that's what she got. The only thing that changed was that there were new parts fitted.

Are there any other mechanical reasons that might make create these symptoms? Is there anything that might have come undone?

Odyssey 2005

jca wrote: »

There's no such thing as a spurious dmf. They're only made by 2 companies luk and sachs. There are huge differences in pricing but in the end the customer is only paying the extra for an oem box.

Agreed, but oem box = warranty

bear1

I wonder... when they removed the box, could they have damaged it and then oil slowly started dripping out which would then cause problems for the clutch? (lack of lubrication)
Just thinking aloud.. I'd want to see their invoice for all the work that was carried out.

Another thing, do you know if the clutch made any strange noises when depressed?
Also, I believe that the clutch would start slipping before it would eventually burn out, it could be that the clutch became contaminated if the car started smoking/burning smell. Either the mechanic was a complete idiot fitting the new clutch, the parts were dodgy or unfortunately your mother rode the pedal

George Dalton

Odyssey 2005 wrote: »

Agreed, but oem box = warranty

Sachs or Luk (the DMF will be made by one or the other) also offer warranty.

Unfortunately warranty on a clutch is a very grey area, no matter what stamp is on the box it was supplied in.

jca

George Dalton wrote: »

Sachs or Luk (the DMF will be made by one or the other) also offer warranty.

Unfortunately warranty on a clutch is a very grey area, no matter what stamp is on the box it was supplied in.

I don't think I've ever heard of anyone getting a new clutch on a warranty claim. They always put it down to driver error wear and tear etc. I think the mammy was slipping the clutch in traffic and it went wallop.

George Dalton

jca wrote: »

I don't think I've ever heard of anyone getting a new clutch on a warranty claim. They always put it down to driver error wear and tear etc. I think the mammy was slipping the clutch in traffic and it went wallop.

That does happen a lot, and it doesn't matter whether the clutch came out of a Sachs box or a VW box, that still applies.

It is possible to get warranty on clutches but it is a struggle. We have made three claims so far this year and so far have only gotten paid out on one of them.

bear1

I recall a situation in our Alfa a year or so ago. Clutch was slipping so straight into the indy it went.
Mechanic bought a Sachs one, DMF was still in good form so that stayed in.
About a month or so later the clutch failed again, brought it back to the indy which diagnosed the problem as the release bearing going bad I believe. Sent it off to Sachs and they returned a new one FOC. I guess I was just lucky

cantdecide

I remember about 10 years ago I had an 1.6 integra and I had the clutch changed. Being an enthusiastic yungfella, I told my mechanic I'd source the clutch (always a big mistake!). It came back with a shudder and after whipping it out again and bringing it back to the motor factor, I got no satisfaction. The difference is that it didn't cost me €950 so I got over it...

The parts are under warranty. They've said that the parts supplier has deemed it to be operator error and won't stand over it. I think the garage just prefer rowing with their customers rather than rowing with their suppliers.

OldmanMondeo

jca wrote: »

There's no such thing as a spurious dmf. They're only made by 2 companies luk and sachs. There are huge differences in pricing but in the end the customer is only paying the extra for an oem box.

Sorry, but that statement is complete and utter BS. Sachs and LUK are the main manufactures for VAG. There is a huge amount of non OE or OEM manufactures making pure crap. I have heard of DMF's being remanfactured, welded all sorts. I sell car parts and I can back my statement up.

jca

OldmanMondeo wrote: »

Sorry, but that statement is complete and utter BS. Sachs and LUK are the main manufactures for VAG. There is a huge amount of non OE or OEM manufactures making pure crap. I have heard of DMF's being remanfactured, welded all sorts. I sell car parts and I can back my statement up.

Who are the other manufacturers of NEW dmf's? No one mentioned remanfactured crap or welded dmf's.

OldmanMondeo

jca wrote: »

Who are the other manufacturers of NEW dmf's? No one mentioned remanfactured crap or welded dmf's.

Get yourself a TecDoc log in and see. I don't have the info to hand, but as stated I sell after market and have done for years. There are a load from Asia who make them.

KwackerJack

Always go for a Solid flywheel and brand new clutch.

The DMF are a waste of time....if I bought a VW or Ford tomorrow id change to a solid flywheel straight away!

jca

OldmanMondeo wrote: »

Get yourself a TecDoc log in and see. I don't have the info to hand, but as stated I sell after market and have done for years. There are a load from Asia who make them.

Maybe the garage used one of your clutches...;)

cantdecide

UPDATE

After making several attempts to extract money out of my mother, they gave the car back. No money changed hands although they continued to blame her for the problem. My mother remains adamant she did nothing wrong on the day (she being a mass-every-day type that simply wouldn't say so if she were in the slightest bit unsure).

The car isn't as smooth as it had been originally now. After the original flywheel gave up, it vibrated at idle. It ran smoothly after the new flywheel was fitted and was grand until the new clutch went for a poop. Now it's rough at idle again and it shudders and seems to think about stalling literally every time it goes into 1st.

We only had their word that the flywheel was still okay after the last incident.


Is it just one of those things or is there something still wrong with it?

jca

cantdecide wrote: »

UPDATE

After making several attempts to extract money out of my mother, they gave the car back. No money changed hands although they continued to blame her for the problem. My mother remains adamant she did nothing wrong on the day (she being a mass-every-day type that simply wouldn't say so if she were in the slightest bit unsure).

The car isn't as smooth as it had been originally now. After the original flywheel gave up, it vibrated at idle. It ran smoothly after the new flywheel was fitted and was grand until the new clutch went for a poop. Now it's rough at idle again and it shudders and seems to think about stalling literally every time it goes into 1st.

We only had their word that the flywheel was still okay after the last incident.


Is it just one of those things or is there something still wrong with it?

It sounds like you're still in trouble. I think the flywheel was damaged when the new clutch burned out. There should be no vibration or extra roughness, it should be as smooth running as when it was newly installed.

bear1

I think your flywheel is fubbered

glic71rods46t0

Get an independent expert assessment of the current situation and threaten small claims court if its found that there is a problem