Something weird that has come to light about land

KatyMac

I got a letter recently about a tiny corner of a parcel of land that apparently was registered in my father's name and the owner of the rest of the parcel wanted to know if my dad would sign it over to him. We had no idea where this bit came from, its a long way from the rest of our land and reckon that somewhere in the dim distant past a mistake was made.
When I went to talk to the solicitor he did a search in the Land Registry and an absolutely huge area of land is actually registered in my dad's name - well about 30 acres, which is huge in my eyes! Land that has absolutely nothing to do with us, some of it is close(ish) to one of our outfarms, but definitely not ours!
Has anyone else had a similar experience. I certainly am not doing a 'land grab' and hope my neighbours don't think that I am, but find it amazing that such circumstance has existed since somewhere in the late 1960s.
I think it's going to be a total nuisance to sort out and I sincerely hope it's not going to cost a fortune!

madalig12

Cha Ching, It might gain you a fortune more like.

blue5000

Just wondering is there any state owned forestry near it? Heard of a case where they planted a couple of extra fields 'by mistake'.

grazeaway

its more common then you would think. up until a few years ago all the land registry work was doen by hand so mistakes are not suprising. due to small amount of land change in ireland these issues are only spotted when land is changing ownership. my dad discovered only a few years ago that one of our fields was in our neighbours name, my great grand father bought part of an ajioning farm and my grandfather sold part of it. took ages for the issue to be resolved. the land registry had lost the folder for the transaction and we were about to get avidavites signed when it was found in the achives. basicly what happend was that soem of teh pages got stuck together in teh file and that transfer was not signed on this field. many years late the file was re opened and it assumed the that this field was sold as well so the neighbours name was filled in.

did your dad buy land back in the 80's or did he inherit anything. Most fields are name via townlands which may be simailar to you home place. also townland names can be older then the postal address. My brothers postal address is actually differnet to the townland address so his site and utiality bills have different address for teh same place

KatyMac

There was no land bought or sold from this house since early in the 1900s, so the mistake was probably in existence since then just nobody spotted it. It's just ordinary grazing fields with a fair share of rushes. I'd take it for a present, but doubt that will happen any time soon! I think I need to get our names away from it, and not care whose name will be put on it. I'll let what I think will be about 3 neighbours fight that out. Solicitor thinks may be something to do with the Land Commission and land divisions but the funny thing was my family never got and Land Commission land, so where my dad came into it I'm agog to find out!

hugo29

KatyMac wrote: »

There was no land bought or sold from this house since early in the 1900s, so the mistake was probably in existence since then just nobody spotted it. It's just ordinary grazing fields with a fair share of rushes. I'd take it for a present, but doubt that will happen any time soon! I think I need to get our names away from it, and not care whose name will be put on it. I'll let what I think will be about 3 neighbours fight that out. Solicitor thinks may be something to do with the Land Commission and land divisions but the funny thing was my family never got and Land Commission land, so where my dad came into it I'm agog to find out!

thats very good of you kathymac, not too many people would be as accommodating and would claim the land

would any of the previous owners or their descendants have shared a name with your father

KatyMac

God! My name would be mud if I actually tried to put in a claim! Wow, the thoughts!
Don't think anyone in the distant past would have had the same name as my father, but it's a thought. My solicitor is going to look for an 'Instrument' (I think that's what he called it) which will either shed light on when things went wrong or may be an instrument of torture!

iverjohnston

So who has been using/farming it for the last 30 years?
Are they trying to get ownership via squatters rights?

Is there any Single Farm Payments attaching to it, or does the Dept. have a record of who has been claiming it.

Where are the maps and parcel numbers attaching to this land?

How would your name be mud, especially when the neighbour wants to buy it?
There was a farm of land near us , which everyone thought was owned by the farmer using it. Only after he died did it turn out that he was renting it from a solicitors firm for a nominal rent , the owners being untraceable.
Eventually descendants of the owners were found in Canada, and they got 40 years rent and the sale value of the land.

yellow50HX

iverjohnston wrote: »

So who has been using/farming it for the last 30 years?
Are they trying to get ownership via squatters rights?

Is there any Single Farm Payments attaching to it, or does the Dept. have a record of who has been claiming it.

Where are the maps and parcel numbers attaching to this land?

How would your name be mud, especially when the neighbour wants to buy it?
There was a farm of land near us , which everyone thought was owned by the farmer using it. Only after he died did it turn out that he was renting it from a solicitors firm for a nominal rent , the owners being untraceable.
Eventually descendants of the owners were found in Canada, and they got 40 years rent and the sale value of the land.

Same round here. My dad used to buy straw from a local farmer. We had always assumed he owned the farm as get had been working it about 25 years. Turns out he was renting it same as the lad before him. The last farmer & owner died around 1930. His sole heir was a son that emergrated to the states around 1900. He couldn't bring himself to sell it so set up a trust fund from the lease of the land. The farm is still in the same family. Actually met some of them a few years ago when they were over tracing family roots.

FYM

My father bought land adjacent to our own years ago, at the time the solicitor handling the sale informed my father that there was a mistake in the sale and that the neighbours house was also signed over, my father instantly signed it back and taught nothing more of it, until last year when a sale was taking place and the solicitor now acting for the neighbour informed my father and his client that the house they had been living in for 30 odd years was actually in my fathers name and that legally he could have them evicted. obviously he didn't and this solicitor finally corrected the original solicitors error.....

KatyMac

yellow50HX wrote: »

Same round here. My dad used to buy straw from a local farmer. We had always assumed he owned the farm as get had been working it about 25 years. Turns out he was renting it same as the lad before him. The last farmer & owner died around 1930. His sole heir was a son that emergrated to the states around 1900. He couldn't bring himself to sell it so set up a trust fund from the lease of the land. The farm is still in the same family. Actually met some of them a few years ago when they were over tracing family roots.

You have opened up some very interesting ideas! As far as I know there are at least 3 different farmers using bits of the land parcel. One part has been planted (about 15/20 years) and I would have thought grants etc would have brought this to light, but maybe not. I'll let ye know what happens next once my solicitor has the information pulled into the light.
Would ye not think that it would make for very uncomfortable living for me if I did make a play for ownership? 'The Field' and the Bull McCabe spring to mind!! Yes, it would be nice if I could get it without having the neighbourhood howling at my door, but I can't see that happening.

Sorry lads, I quoted the wrong man I'm answering Iverjohnston

iverjohnston

Ok, who planted the land and collected the premiums?
The other 2 parcels, were the guys farming it paying rent for it, if so so whom, if not, why not?
If it turns out to have been your fathers legally, perhaps from a distant uncle etc, why would you feel any way guilty about now owning it.
It may only recently be discovered to belong to your dad, perhaps as a result of some other probate. Know of a plot of land, still in the guys grandfathers name. And if died in the 1930's.
Especially if these guys transpire to have had free run of it for years. Don't know where you live , but has to be worth 7 to 9 thousand an acre . Just don't in spending any money in your head at this stage!

Dont be daft

You'd be surprised how many places have problems with ownership and possession.
I seen a +300 acre farm with a big georgian house right beside the water and there was a major issue with the deeds. It took nearly a decade to sort it out.

The documents for land go so far back that its a mystery how it doesn't happen more often. I've seen documents for land that went so far back they were written on a kind of sheepskin material. Its mad when you think about it.
Simple things like pages getting stuck together and ink smudging. People of the same name and sometimes with fathers and sons the same addresses.

As for the situation here, it sounds like a bit of a mess. Often happens that the only way to sort these things out is to claim adverse possession.

viztopia

Does anyone know how to do a land registry search by name? From reading the website you can call into their office. I have searched by folio number on the website before.

hugo29

KatyMac wrote: »

You have opened up some very interesting ideas! As far as I know there are at least 3 different farmers using bits of the land parcel. One part has been planted (about 15/20 years) and I would have thought grants etc would have brought this to light, but maybe not. I'll let ye know what happens next once my solicitor has the information pulled into the light.
Would ye not think that it would make for very uncomfortable living for me if I did make a play for ownership? 'The Field' and the Bull McCabe spring to mind!! Yes, it would be nice if I could get it without having the neighbourhood howling at my door, but I can't see that happening.

Sorry lads, I quoted the wrong man I'm answering Iverjohnston

Is there any chance any of the other lads were aware of the ownership problems and carried on anyway,

iverjohnston

viztopia wrote: »

Does anyone know how to do a land registry search by name? From reading the website you can call into their office. I have searched by folio number on the website before.

you used to be able to go into the land registry office in the courthouse here in Cavan, and request the book of folios , which were listed in alphabetical order of the registered owner. No longer possible as the service has been centralized to Dublin. You may have to saw a visit.

tabby aspreme

I think the folios may now be on a digitised map , check the land registery website.
Not being insulting here Katy Mac but were any of your ancestors in the auctioneering business

O.A.P

KatyMac wrote: »

I got a letter recently about a tiny corner of a parcel of land that apparently was registered in my father's name and the owner of the rest of the parcel wanted to know if my dad would sign it over to him. We had no idea where this bit came from, its a long way from the rest of our land and reckon that somewhere in the dim distant past a mistake was made.
When I went to talk to the solicitor he did a search in the Land Registry and an absolutely huge area of land is actually registered in my dad's name - well about 30 acres, which is huge in my eyes! Land that has absolutely nothing to do with us, some of it is close(ish) to one of our outfarms, but definitely not ours!
Has anyone else had a similar experience. I certainly am not doing a 'land grab' and hope my neighbours don't think that I am, but find it amazing that such circumstance has existed since somewhere in the late 1960s.
I think it's going to be a total nuisance to sort out and I sincerely hope it's not going to cost a fortune!

My old lad is for ever telling me that they aint making any more of it (land) so have a look even if it cost ya a few pound its a better bet than the ggs.
Hopefully your prayers have been answersed

st1979

Good luck to anyone trying to put out some one who has had uncontested use of the property and not paid you any rent for over 12 years.

To me it seems that katy is not only going to do the right thing but also the only thing she can do. As it seems that the ownership is a mistake not something just forgotten about. And to get possession will be dam near impossible

Horace

The people who have been using the land may have squatters rights and if so they will not just walk away from the land when you ask them to hand it back to you. You could end up with a long legal battle with solicitors being the real winners. That said someone knows the real story try and make contact with a elderly person from the area they might know the full story.

yellow50HX

don't go dismissing any claims just yet. you need to find out how and why tour dads name ended up on the land register. If it was a genuine mistake then fine that's easy enough to agree with. however there might be a good reason why its in his name. the current people faming it may just have been farming it on a rent agreement back in the 60's and may never have actually owned it. There have been loads of cases where the land may not have been signed over to the next of kin

there are a couple of brothers near here that were squabbling over land. Their father passed away and passed the farm onto his sons. Part of the farm had actually been owned by an uncle and their father had taken this over when his brother died. The bit hey were squabbling over was the uncles. They had agreed that one would take the home farm and the other the uncles farm but in order to divide it equally part of the uncles farm needed to be divided. It turned out that the uncle only owned about half the farm, he had rented a neighbouring farm back in the 70's, the owner died soon after and he kept working the farm. it was always assumed that he had bought it outright but original owner had no family and the solicitor working the will had trouble tracking down relatives. over the years the case wound down, the solicitor passed away and the file ended up in an archive but the uncle kept the land. Last i heard the brothers agreed that one would keep the uncles farm in total but were looking to make a settlement to own the whole farm as i think its ownership was about to be reverted back to the state. either way it was messy.

the country is full of small holdings whose owners have died with no will or no relatives. over time the land get subsumed into neighbouring farms and over generations the ownership disappears.

yellow50HX

O.A.P wrote: »

My old lad is for ever telling me that they aint making any more of it (land) so have a look even if it cost ya a few pound its a better bet than the ggs.
Hopefully your prayers have been answersed

my dad says the same...

i remember when i was a kid we used to go on hols down by the coast. there was a tidal inlet that we would cross over a bridge. i remeber we usedto play there when the tide was in. about 10 years ago i was passign teh same place and it was all in grassland. the famer adjioing it dammed off the tide and back filled the inlet reclaiming it. he then sold a coulple of sites on it. can you create land folios for reclmainion work?

bbam

This is a purely paperwork exercise..
We had a similar issue with a laneway a bit down the road from our house.. Turned out somehow that the laneway was on our folio number..

However.. having never asked rent, nor challenged the occupier to vacate the property, even if it were genuinely yours, they can hold on to it if they wish.. From memory I think its a 12 year thing, 12 years without paying nore being challenged and you've no rescourse..

In our case the person adjoining the lane paid the legal cost of sorting the paperwork as it was going into their name, they wanted control over access as the laneway accessed their property.

st1979

bbam wrote: »

This is a purely paperwork exercise..
We had a similar issue with a laneway a bit down the road from our house.. Turned out somehow that the laneway was on our folio number..

However.. having never asked rent, nor challenged the occupier to vacate the property, even if it were genuinely yours, they can hold on to it if they wish.. From memory I think its a 12 year thing, 12 years without paying nore being challenged and you've no rescourse..

In our case the person adjoining the lane paid the legal cost of sorting the paperwork as it was going into their name, they wanted control over access as the laneway accessed their property.

The bit in bold is the only thing you need to consider. All the other comments about getting paid for the land are dreaming. The only way you could get paid is by being a prick and to save going to court the other side would offer a small settlement. But if i was the occupier of that land that has had use of the land with not having paid your father even a pound a year for it. Its now mine and no one could shift me legally.
I know cause i was executor for a will where the man who died was left a house in the 70's in a small town far from where he lived that was rented and the 'tenants' refused to pay rent and made it clear what would happen to him if they were put out. No rent was collected and when he died many years later it didn't even warrant a 5 minute discussion with the solicitor. As after 12 years the tenants owned the house

bbam

st1979 wrote: »

The bit in bold is the only thing you need to consider. All the other comments about getting paid for the land are dreaming. The only way you could get paid is by being a prick and to save going to court the other side would offer a small settlement. But if i was the occupier of that land that has had use of the land with not having paid your father even a pound a year for it. Its now mine and no one could shift me legally.
I know cause i was executor for a will where the man who died was left a house in the 70's in a small town far from where he lived that was rented and the 'tenants' refused to pay rent and made it clear what would happen to him if they were put out. No rent was collected and when he died many years later it didn't even warrant a 5 minute discussion with the solicitor. As after 12 years the tenants owned the house

If attempts were made to move on the squatter/resident then there is a case to fight.. If no contact was made to move the people on and no money changed hands, then all is lost.

freedominacup

iverjohnston wrote: »

you used to be able to go into the land registry office in the courthouse here in Cavan, and request the book of folios , which were listed in alphabetical order of the registered owner. No longer possible as the service has been centralized to Dublin. You may have to saw a visit.

Waterford.

freedominacup

There's a 1/4 acre on a plot of ground that I bought inside the boundary ditch that "belongs" to someone else. The closest land he owns is around 300m away from it. It only came to light when sorting out security on a new loan. Solicitor says it's a pure formality as I have had adverse possession of it for 20 years and another person had it for 15 years before that. The same firm of solicitors had handled transfers on the ground since the early 1900's. The neighbours land and mine were part of one much larger holding upto 70 years ago. I'd say Katy is at nothing. The parcel in my case is landlocked and tiny and not worth anyones while fighting over but the principle is the same. The solicitor who found it is in a firm I changed to around 10 years ago.

maidhc

freedominacup wrote: »

Waterford.

No most stuff is in Dublin.

No real reason to go though when it is all online at prai.ie.

grazeaway

freedominacup wrote: »

There's a 1/4 acre on a plot of ground that I bought inside the boundary ditch that "belongs" to someone else. The closest land he owns is around 300m away from it. It only came to light when sorting out security on a new loan. Solicitor says it's a pure formality as I have had adverse possession of it for 20 years and another person had it for 15 years before that. The same firm of solicitors had handled transfers on the ground since the early 1900's. The neighbours land and mine were part of one much larger holding upto 70 years ago. I'd say Katy is at nothing. The parcel in my case is landlocked and tiny and not worth anyones while fighting over but the principle is the same. The solicitor who found it is in a firm I changed to around 10 years ago.

heard of this before, many of these were kept as sites for houses for people on the farm or for family. one of my friends bought a farm a fw years that had 10 differnt foilo numbers in one field. These are all subplots that the landlord had divided up for staff to have alloments back when it was part of a big estate

nashmach

maidhc wrote: »

No most stuff is in Dublin.

No real reason to go though when it is all online at prai.ie.

Some is in Waterford anyway, certainly for the South East.

But as you say if required easier to do it online.