Any doubts?

TeddyTedson

Hi. I'm Teddy, I don't usually post here and am not religious but I just wanted to ask Christians if they ever had any doubts about there beliefs and what caused these doubts?
My friends mother was always heavily involved with the church but she has stopped even attending mass several months ago. She's around 60ish and nothing major seemed to happen in her life to cause this. Her husband is dead well before this and it just strikes me as being very weird.
You don't just stop going one day out of nowhere. Do you?

Doc Farrell

I don't think its possible to have faith without doubt. It may be possible if you are a desperately frightened person, then faith becomes a shield.
But faith is an experience rather than an object to be acquired.
The most famous recent person to highlight the difficulties all thinking people have with a deep sense of faith is Mother Theresa. Here's an interesting, if slightly academic article on it.

http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2007/10/does-doubt-belong-to-faith

Many older people never really had to question their faith or their leaders in the church until the recent abuse scandals. But many parishes now hold different courses, for example ones based on Fr Bob Barron's book, to help mostly older parishioners.

The idea that some hold, that one is either a complete believer or a complete unbeliever and that no middle ground is possible is a fundamentalist approach.
Experiencing faith is tougher the bigger one's ego is, I know this from personal experience. Also if a persons search for faith is undermined by a narcissistic, bullying or grandiose teacher then they may never get another chance to develop a true understanding of the point of Christianity. That is a deep, grave, stupid error on the part of the teacher/Christian.

Faith is not about rules or doctrines to be accepted or rejected. It is an experience to be nurtured in ways that I'm not 'experienced' enough to list. But I can provide links to people who know more about it than me.
Here is the pope on doubting or falling:
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/pope-tells-children-how-to-face-doubts-about-faith/

Manach

From a book by the Jesuit Ft. James Murphy,is that faith is not a binary condition but more a wide spectrum from absolute to a widely fluctuating border of unbelief. As Doc Farrell mentioned, even (or perhaps not to surprisingly) figures like Mother Theresa have doubts.
Leaving aside the faith issue, there is always a utility in encouraging people who are acquainted with the friend's mother to chat and converse and see is there are other issues on her mind.

Geomy

I have no doubt that there's a God, Gods, Angels or some sort or sorts of higher power. ..

I doubt that what the Catholic Church preach is all true, and I doubt the teaching's about sexuality, priest's getting married and sex before marriage being wrong is true.
Man made fear tactics I think.

I have a strong spiritual leaning and know plenty of men and women in their 60s + who don't go to mass but are spiritual.

leonil7

being religious will never remove doubt. doubt is the symptom of a need, a need for answers, a need for meaning.

and faith is born out of need. but faith is not a blind leap in the dark. faith is always defined by the object of faith.
this is what differentiates the claims of 'faith' by all other religions, even atheists who seemed to have only 'faith' in themselves.

the object of faith in Christianity is none other than Jesus Christ.

and since Christ is a person, to have faith in Jesus one must have a relationship with him.

'i am the way, the truth and life'. he did not say 'ill show you the way, the truth, and life'.

and here is the way that answers (not remove) all doubt, that in Jesus Christ we find it. we find meaning, we find purpose.

Mat 11:28 "Come to me, all of you who are tired from carrying heavy loads, and I will give you rest."

rest for the weary, answers to those who doubt.

antiskeptic

TeddyTedson wrote: »

Hi. I'm Teddy, I don't usually post here and am not religious but I just wanted to ask Christians if they ever had any doubts about there beliefs and what caused these doubts?
My friends mother was always heavily involved with the church but she has stopped even attending mass several months ago. She's around 60ish and nothing major seemed to happen in her life to cause this. Her husband is dead well before this and it just strikes me as being very weird.
You don't just stop going one day out of nowhere. Do you?

I've had a discussion here recently with someone whose belief is derived from sense that God is a concept worth believing in. Their faith is self-described as being the hope that their belief is in fact true - it's not based on evidence in the first instance.

I can imagine that kind of belief being subject to reversal.

In my own case, my belief is evidence based. That is to say, it is personal experience and assessment of the world around me which, when compared to the claims and predictions of that Bible, convince me that God most certainly exists.

I can't fathom how that belief could be reversed. Once you know something based on evidence, I'm not sure how you can unknow it.

leonil7

the early christians (after the apostles) did have their own doubts. it will always manifest itself esp when someone is just talking about it, and you are simply asked to have faith. that is why in time of doubt we always have to revert to something more concrete, rather than trying to psych ourselves that what we think we believe is probably true.

one must go back to scripture in this case. because the apostles wrote that what they believe is TRULY TRUE, and that what you believe is not a social trend that could just come and go and is a product of cultural upbringing or peer pressure or the tendency to conform.

1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life--
1Jn 1:2 the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us--
1Jn 1:3 that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.
1Jn 1:4 And we are writing these things so that our joy may be complete.
1Jn 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

the christian faith is not based on some concoction of the mind. it is real. Jesus is real, the apostles talked to him, heard him, seen him first hand. he was not a figment of imagination. and i suppose if you ever had doubts then one has to go back to scripture and read the writings of people who have , first hand, profess the christian faith.

antiskeptic

leonil7 wrote: »

that is why in time of doubt we always have to revert to something more concrete, rather than trying to psych ourselves that what we think we believe is probably true.

one must go back to scripture in this case.

What if you doubt the scriptures are the word of God?

1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life--
1Jn 1:2 the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us--
1Jn 1:3 that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.
1Jn 1:4 And we are writing these things so that our joy may be complete.
1Jn 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

The apostles had the luxury of seeing with their own eyes (although many who saw with their own eyes then didn't believe still - which raises the questions of the usefulness of tangible evidence when the core problem is spiritual blindness)

leonil7

you must have a valid reason to doubt that scriptures are the words of God or that it can speak to you.

but understanding (which answer and removes doubt) is not simply the capacity of man, but the gift of the holy spirit. in other words, it will require not just a will to understand , but the gift to understand. which is obviously beyond anyone's control.

so here comes in the need for prayer and faith. in which case becomes the answer to doubt.

antiskeptic

leonil7 wrote: »

you must have a valid reason to doubt that scriptures are the words of God or that it can speak to you.

It would be far safer to presume they aren't the word of God until such time as you had valid reason to suppose they were.

And if the valid reason why you once thought they were the words of God flees you then a valid reason you would no longer have.

Doubt arises for a reason

but understanding (which answer and removes doubt) is not simply the capacity of man, but the gift of the holy spirit. in other words, it will require not just a will to understand , but the gift to understand. which is obviously beyond anyone's control.

Indeed. And so the doubt might be the operative thing for want of this gift and so unbelief the rational follow on from it

so here comes in the need for prayer and faith. in which case becomes the answer to doubt.

Prayer very often goes unanswered (witnessed not only by veritable libraries of Christian writing dealing with this very subject but by the cries of the faithful in the Bible itself). And faith (in the sense of blind hope) is a tank that can run dry..


Ultimately, the only (imo) answer to doubt is evidence. However that evidence is wrapped up. If your in possession of it then doubt you will not. If not, then doubt will surely arise.

leonil7

i think you are proposing that reason alone can remove all doubt.
if is not 'reasonable' then doubt will always exist.

unfortunately that is not the case of the christian faith. otherwise the word 'faith' loses its meaning.

the pharisees have all the more reason to doubt anyone else. they want to seek 'proof' and 'evidence'. but still they cannot see or accept jesus as the christ, even though the living evidence is right there in front of them performing miracles, etc. instead they we so blind, their reasoning did not help at all. instead they hated him.

Mat 12:14 But the Pharisees went out and conspired against him, how to destroy him.

so here is my point; evidence itself is insufficient to remove doubt. reason can get you only up to a certain point. understanding to remove doubt might come through reason or evidence, but it will only come through revelation (especially on matters beyond reason) through faith.

this is the same as reading scripture, one might read it as a book. but the other sees that it speaks to him/her directly. it is not just a matter of reason after all.

antiskeptic

leonil7 wrote: »

i think you are proposing that reason alone can remove all doubt.
if is not 'reasonable' then doubt will always exist.

I'm using the word 'reason' in the sense of "having a cause to.." not in the sense of relying on reason. For example:

the pharisees have all the more reason to doubt anyone else. they want to seek 'proof' and 'evidence'. but still they cannot see or accept jesus as the christ, even though the living evidence is right there in front of them performing miracles, etc. instead they we so blind, their reasoning did not help at all. instead they hated him.

Mat 12:14 But the Pharisees went out and conspired against him, how to destroy him.

The reason why some believed is that they light had switched on, they could see the truth and believed. What they could see was the evidence that enabled their belief.

If, for whatever reason, a person hasn't got the evidence then the belief will disappear. By 'evidence' I mean whatever it is that the persons perceives such that their belief is sustained.

In other words, the sequence is: evidence > belief. The belief isn't blind / without cause / without a reason.

this is the same as reading scripture, one might read it as a book. but the other sees that it speaks to him/her directly. it is not just a matter of reason after all.

And so I agree. But am merely transposing the word 'evidence' for that which the Christian sees and the non-Christian doesn't see.

Lapis lazuli

I felt I had to share the following words with you.

In Judea and Galilee it came down to the people either believing the Pharisees, or believing Jesus.
Both had faith in God, but some placed their complete faith in Jesus. "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me"

Pilate asked "What is 'truth' ?" . . . . The truth was standing in front of him.

Never underestimate ordinary people's ability to discern for themselves who's 'truth' rings truer.
Never underestimate the vested interests and barriers against the truth.
Christ was crucified for being the truth.

antiskeptic

LL wrote:

Never underestimate ordinary people's ability to discern for themselves who's 'truth' rings truer.

Thus hope for all

leonil7

'Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

or in the words of christ ;

Joh 20:29 Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

where does your 'evidence' come in if man will simply rely on his perception to believe, or something that is reasonable, or beyond what the senses can grasp ?

if 'faith' is part of the 'evidence' you are suggesting (which obviously what Heb 11:1 states), i do believe we can agree. but since you have been avoiding to use that word, probably it would be best for our readers to know if your definition of evidence goes beyond a legal term.

antiskeptic wrote: »

If, for whatever reason, a person hasn't got the evidence then the belief will disappear. By 'evidence' I mean whatever it is that the persons perceives such that their belief is sustained.

In other words, the sequence is: evidence > belief. The belief isn't blind / without cause / without a reason.

antiskeptic

leonil7 wrote: »

'Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

or in the words of christ ;

Joh 20:29 Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

In other words, the evidence which undergirds a belief can be straightforward empirical evidence (physically seeing the thing with your own eyes). Or it can be non-empirical evidence - a.k.a. faith.

To put it another way: faith is evidence of the non-empirical kind. It is evidence for something which can't be seen (such as Gods existence). it undergirds beliefs just as physical evidences do to things which can be seen.

Faith in this context, is supplied to man by God in order to enable belief in man.

where does your 'evidence' come in if man will simply rely on his perception to believe, or something that is reasonable, or beyond what the senses can grasp ?

if 'faith' is part of the 'evidence' you are suggesting (which obviously what Heb 11:1 states), i do believe we can agree. but since you have been avoiding to use that word, probably it would be best for our readers to know if your definition of evidence goes beyond a legal term.

The above should clarify. Faith is the primary evidence sustaining belief.

Soul Winner

When Jesus said to Peter "O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?" Matt 14:31 It should read like so: "Oh little faith man, why did you double think?"

That's where we get the word 'doubt' from, to 'double think' or 'thinking twice'. "I'd think twice about that if I were you" for example. 'Distazo in the Greek (διστάζω).

Peter double-thought. One minute he is walking on the water with Jesus and the next he is sinking and crying out for help, and all because he looked at the wind. He was going fine until he looked at the wind. Like someone who is afraid of heights, they're fine until they look down. You can take this story as literal or figurative but either way it gives a message for us today. When life's circumstances are getting you down don't put your focus on them, keep your focus on the Lord and He will see you through all of life's circumstances. Peter was going fine as long as his focus was on Jesus. As soon as he took his focus off Jesus and started looking at the wind (typical of life's circumstances) he started to sink.

It's these kinds of hidden meanings in these texts that convince me that no mortal man weaved the fabric of the New Testament nor the whole Bible, texts that not only tell a story but also convey valuable lessons for every Christian who reads them, lessons that are relevant and that can speak to any generation at any time in history.

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." 2 Timothy 3:16

Anyway having doubt is natural, so when it happens do the necessary readjustments.

lmaopml

I think 'doubt' is a part of being human - and so too is faith. It's almost 'natural' and a desire that we have that needs to be met to know we are of value and loved and deserve love. I don't think there is a single other desire that does not immediately find it's focus and can be 'met' - but this desire is equal - but not quite so easily met.

What a difficult topic?

It's important to examine 'doubts' and it builds your internal strength - I could list off books, but I think each person comes across what they are looking for...

However, I do believe that it's important to pray in the right Spirit, without doubt, even if your prayer is not answered the way you like or asked for, some retrospection is important - and of course being honest too. Pray and don't 'doubt' when you do so that you are addressing and making your request in the name of Jesus Christ.


I found in my life that my prayers were not always answered the way I asked, but I was given a 'strength' and not only that a massive 'hope' too - and THAT is the most under rated miracle. A changed heart -

I've seen changed hearts, I had one, and I've seen 'miracles' I think I can say there is no greater one, than a person given strength and courage or a complete change of heart, a heart that hopes and loves to the end - and mysterious as Christ is, he works on hearts, and not by our multimedia, for your examination etc. -

Sometimes the change is not perceivable to the wanting to 'see' and prove but who doesn't put one foot in front of the other without consulting everything the world offers except encountering Christ.

Miracles happen in hearts.