Another Raptor Persecution Incident

OpenYourEyes

A Sparrowhawk shot in Meath and found hanging on a post. Has to be the landowner - nobody else would be hanging birds from posts in someone elses field! Hope the law comes down hard on them, way too much of this crap going on!

CJhaughey

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

Has to be the landowner - nobody else would be hanging birds from posts in someone elses field!

Not necessarily, could be someone trying to get the landowner in trouble...

Birdnuts

I think they need to pull out all the stops on this one - having a clearly deranged individual with a firearm is a danger to any type of protected species and god knows who/what else!!:mad:

Zoo4m8

I think we need to take a step back here, the instant assumption it was the landowner is just that, an assumption, when I was involved in farming it wasn't unusual when herding in the morning to find lampers had been in and hung a fox on a fence, in fact it was common place in those days to hang 'vermin' from gateposts etc.
Here I'll make a couple of assumptions myself, I assume the bird was shot, I assume the gate is at the roadside, if that's the case it could have been put there by anybody.....
To assume the the shooter is deranged and a danger to more than wildlife, hmmmm... Just because someone is a complete moron doesn't mean they are deranged, as we all know morons as a species are commonplace in all levels of Irish society and the only way to reduce numbers is through information/education/legislation...

magicbastarder

a rather bizarre bird to shoot anyway, from any farming perspective.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

As this is a wildlife forum, then of course we are all disgusted by the unnecessary killing or another BOP. We will all post comments condemning it. But accusation and assumptions and name calling and ranting here will achieve nothing. Neither will bemoaning the fact that authorities can't or won't do much about it. It's sickening but no more so to some people than the act of killing rabbits by ferreting or shooting foxes. We will always have individuals who will kill wildlife but it's our overall humanity and and care as a society that counts.
So, let's accept that this happened but not start accusing anybody when none of us here know what really happened.

Kess73

magicbastarder wrote: »

a rather bizarre bird to shoot anyway, from any farming perspective.

It is. It is difficult to pick any group that a sparrowhawk would present any threat to.


No threat in any way to any livestock, no threat to poultry, no real threat to racing pigeons, no threat to the vast majority of domestic pets.


In my opinion, it smacks of an ignorant killing of an animal, something that is all too typical of the treatment of wildlife in Ireland.

OpenYourEyes

One thing I will say - while it might seem like there have been more raptor persecution incidents than usual this year (plenty come to mind), thats not the case - it's just that attention is being put on them more than it has in the past. So it's good that the media and public are being made more aware of these incidents, and from that making other people aware how unacceptable and unnecessary it is.

That being said, unfortunately it just takes a small number of bad minded people to do a lot of damage. Hopefully with this increase attention and the recent publication of an annual report on raptor persecution by the NPWS, and improved protocols to try and get prosecutions, that we'll see the people responsible dealt with accordingly. i.e. fines, firearms license revoked, farm payments withheld etc etc.

Woodville56

magicbastarder wrote: »

a rather bizarre bird to shoot anyway, from any farming perspective.

agree ! As a regular birder I rarely get a chance to see a Sparrowhawk at close enough range and perched to view in all it's beauty, never mind an opportunist shooter managing to shoot one !
Surely local gun club folk in the area must know if there's a renegade among their number - country folk generally have a good idea of such activity.

Birdnuts

Zoo4m8 wrote: »

I think we need to take a step back here, the instant assumption it was the landowner is just that, an assumption, when I was involved in farming it wasn't unusual when herding in the morning to find lampers had been in and hung a fox on a fence, in fact it was common place in those days to hang 'vermin' from gateposts etc.
Here I'll make a couple of assumptions myself, I assume the bird was shot, I assume the gate is at the roadside, if that's the case it could have been put there by anybody.....
To assume the the shooter is deranged and a danger to more than wildlife, hmmmm... Just because someone is a complete moron doesn't mean they are deranged, as we all know morons as a species are commonplace in all levels of Irish society and the only way to reduce numbers is through information/education/legislation...

I'm not blaming the landowner until all the facts are established. However if someone did that on my land, America's finest CSI team would have a job putting him/her back together if I got to them before the law.

I think people are going away from the point here, which is that there are individuals in this country with licenced or unlicenced firearms that are prepared to use them to commit very serious wildlife crimes. This is not just a threat to vulnerable wildlife populations but also to the image of the vast majority of decent law abiding hunter/shooters many of whom will be equally disgusted by this incident. As a gun owner myself I don't want any more restrictions on fire-arm ownership in this country. However incidents like this will invariably lead to more pressure and restrictive practices when it comes to the law in this area. Particulary in parts of the country were this type of wildlife crime appears to commoner than other regions

cd07

I just cant understand why people commit these crimes. Sparrowhawks are no significant threat to any gamebirds or pigeons. I have in the past heard of breeders of pheasants targeting them though while poults are still in the pens. So in my opinion this lies with a member of a gun club. Landowners should show more interest in what people shoot whilst on their land though and make it very clear to them that no protected wildlife should be harmed with the threat of refusing to allow anybody to shoot their land if there has been illegal killing of wildlife. They need to inform gun clubs of this and maybe erect signs on their land stating this.

jellybaby21

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

A Sparrowhawk shot in Meath and found hanging on a post. Has to be the landowner - nobody else would be hanging birds from posts in someone elses field! Hope the law comes down hard on them, way too much of this crap going on!

I cant understand why anyone would want to hang a protected specie from a post.After committing a crime would they not want to hide it?I find it strange if it was the land owner he would hang it in view and not hide what he had done.Its not good no matter who has done it.

Birdnuts

cd07 wrote: »

I just cant understand why people commit these crimes. Sparrowhawks are no significant threat to any gamebirds or pigeons. I have in the past heard of breeders of pheasants targeting them though while poults are still in the pens. So in my opinion this lies with a member of a gun club. .

I don't understand either - simply measures like putting a top net on such pens cuts out any possibility of poults being taken by any sort of BOP. In any case pretty much any study that has looked into this area show that losses to BOP's are tiny(in the order of 1-2%). A recent study in the UK showed that road kill accounts for far more losses in pheasants then BOPS like buzzards etc. But as I stated earlier the majority of hunters etc. know this, its just a small minority of simpletons who are stuck in some Victorian time warp that do the damage in this area.

jellybaby21

cd07 wrote: »

I just cant understand why people commit these crimes. Sparrowhawks are no significant threat to any gamebirds or pigeons. I have in the past heard of breeders of pheasants targeting them though while poults are still in the pens. So in my opinion this lies with a member of a gun club. Landowners should show more interest in what people shoot whilst on their land though and make it very clear to them that no protected wildlife should be harmed with the threat of refusing to allow anybody to shoot their land if there has been illegal killing of wildlife. They need to inform gun clubs of this and maybe erect signs on their land stating this.

The sparrowhawk can be a real threat at times to racing pigeons.I raced pigeons for years and in my opion are a bigger threat than the peregrine.I have seen them take pigeons off my loft.At the time I put up with this because of the resoect I have for the sparrowhawk and all wildlife.So for you to say they are no threat to pigeons so it must be someone in a gun club is in my opion wrong.This could have just as easily been a pigeon man because some of them think the only good hawk is a dead hawk but then again it could have been anyone.We just dont know and probably will never know.

cd07

jellybaby21 wrote: »

The sparrowhawk can be a real threat at times to racing pigeons.I raced pigeons for years and in my opion are a bigger threat than the peregrine.I have seen them take pigeons off my loft.At the time I put up with this because of the resoect I have for the sparrowhawk and all wildlife.So for you to say they are no threat to pigeons so it must be someone in a gun club is in my opion wrong.This could have just as easily been a pigeon man because some of them think the only good hawk is a dead hawk but then again it could have been anyone.We just dont know and probably will never know.

I didnt say they were no threat I said they arent a significant threat and they arent. I too had pigeons for years living surrounded by woodland and over the years Sparrowhawks took very very few birds and those they did take were usually young birds off the landing board so I cant agree with you there. But I do agree with you when you say fanciers think the only good hawk is a dead one.In my experience of watching Sparrowhawks as we all know only the hens tackle pigeons but even at that not all hen Sparrowhawks kill them. Having watched several pairs of Spars rear their broods some hens never fed pigeon at all and only one hen in particular regularly brought pigeon/dove to the nest.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Here we go with all the speculation and dragging up the same old stereotypes that are resurrected every time the killing of a BOP appears on Boards. Truth is none of us yet knows who was responsible. I just find the constant re-hatching of these prejudices very tiring. Maybe I'm just getting too old and have heard it all trashed out too many times.

OpenYourEyes

I don't think they're prejudices really - it's true to say that some farmers, some hunters and some pigeon fanciers are involved in illegal activity involving the persecution of raptors - farmers/hunters and people with pigeon experience here have said it! And we all know it anyway, from experience, the scientific literarature etc. Nobody here has said "all hunters" or "all farmers" or "all pigeon fanciers", because it's obviously a minority that isn't representative of those communites overall, but to say that it's not fair to refer to them as hunters/farmers/pigeon fanciers isn't true.


Like I said above, thankfully these incidents are getting more attention and I personally get very encouraged when I see the NARGC condemning Red Kite poisonings, or the lads over in the hunting forum calling for strict punishments on poachers etc. I think projects like the ones involving Red Grouse and Grey Partridge in Ireland are showing hunters and conservationists that they can work together to achieve common goals, and that weeding out those involved in illegal activity is best for everyone.

jellybaby21

cd07 wrote: »

I didnt say they were no threat I said they arent a significant threat and they arent. I too had pigeons for years living surrounded by woodland and over the years Sparrowhawks took very very few birds and those they did take were usually young birds off the landing board so I cant agree with you there. But I do agree with you when you say fanciers think the only good hawk is a dead one.In my experience of watching Sparrowhawks as we all know only the hens tackle pigeons but even at that not all hen Sparrowhawks kill them. Having watched several pairs of Spars rear their broods some hens never fed pigeon at all and only one hen in particular regularly brought pigeon/dove to the nest.

Sorry your rite you did say no significant therat,my mistake.It all depends on what you call significant as I had 7 pigeons taken in one season but that was the worst season I ever had.Normaly it was 3 or 4 and as you say most of them young birds but not always.I think thats significant if the young birds are from your top racing stock.

dodderangler

I'd have a rough idea who it was. And I know this havin heard from pigeon owners that they will kill a sparrowhawk or peregrine.
This poster is a joke. It almost tellin people to persecute them
http://www.rpra.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Songbirds-Sticker.pdf

Scotty #

Zoo4m8 wrote: »

I think we need to take a step back here, the instant assumption it was the landowner is just that, an assumption,

Are we also assuming it was shot? Has it been clarified?

OpenYourEyes

Scotty # wrote: »

Are we also assuming it was shot? Has it been clarified?

Confirmed it was shot.

whyulittle

Buzzard shot in Westmeath

24th November 2014

The ISCPA is appealing for information after a buzzard was shot in Co. Westmeath.

A member of the public found the badly injured bird of prey in Castletown Geoghegan in recent days and brought it to the National Animal Centre in Longford where it received pain relief before it was transferred to Kildare Animal Foundation for specialist treatment .

It was decided the buzzard could not be saved due to a badly damaged wing and it was put to sleep to prevent any further suffering.

People with information are asked to contact the National Parks and Wildlife Service, the ISPCA or Kildare Animal Foundation

http://www.midlands103.com/news/buzzard-put-down-after-being-shot-in-westmeath

dodderangler

<snip> eejits at it again.?



Well at least the pheasants will be safe now:)

homerhop

As someone who hunts, the people who shoot birds of prey make me sick to the core of my stomach.

OpenYourEyes

dodderangler wrote: »

Well at least the pheasants will be safe now:)

Not sure what tone you're going for there, but studies in the UK have shown that Buzzards are responsible for less than 5% of pheasant mortality - so there'll be no noticeable difference!

homerhop

I think it was a dig at the pheasant hunting folks that they were now safe with one less bop to worry about

OpenYourEyes

homerhop wrote: »

I think it was a dig at the pheasant hunting folks that they were now safe with one less bop to worry about

I think you're right - just said I'd add in the fact in case anyone else was reading and thought Dodderangler was being sincere!

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

homerhop wrote: »

I think it was a dig at the pheasant hunting folks that they were now safe with one less bop to worry about

Except pheasant hunt clubs are not known to blame Buzzards for taking game. More likely just a fool with a gun taking a potshot for the heck of it.

homerhop

I beg to differ on that one, hear a lot of lads blaming buzzards for taking birds, more so poults that fully grown, but I do here the odd lad trying to tell me he seen one taking a fully grown cock or hen

dodderangler

Lads you know I hunt myself. I was being the highest form of sarcasm in my post.
I reckon more pheasants are hit by cars than actually taken by buzzards.
Just the discussion about buzzards not long ago in hunting forum made me laugh.
And with regards on a buzzard taking a fully grown cock pheasant.!
My Harris hawk female struggled with one with myself having to dispatch it. A buzzard with it's small feet would be extremely lucky to actually kill one especially with the strong feet of a cock pheasant

Capercaille

dodderangler wrote: »

Just the discussion about buzzards not long ago in hunting forum made me laugh.
And with regards on a buzzard taking a fully grown cock pheasant.!

I think this was the thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057323097

Birdnuts

homerhop wrote: »

I beg to differ on that one, hear a lot of lads blaming buzzards for taking birds, more so poults that fully grown, but I do here the odd lad trying to tell me he seen one taking a fully grown cock or hen

I think we are dealing with "flat earth" syndrome among a certain group of hunters when it come to this issue. What I mean by this is that some people seem to assume that because they happen to see buzzards around the place they jump to the conclusion that

1) they are feeding exclusively on pheasants

2) they consume significant amounts of them on a daily basis

On the first point numerous studies both here and in the UK have shown that buzzards feed predominantly on what most people would consider small vermin species such as rodents, rabbits, young crows etc. Below is some info from buzzard diet in Cork

http://duhallow.blogspot.ie/p/buzzards-in-duhallow.html


On the second point the dietary requirements of a rather lazy inactive bird weighing 2-3 pounds is likely to be a small fraction of their overall weight. One adult rat or a bit of roadkill will see a buzzard through for up to half a week. Therefore the idea that buzzards are ploughing through numerious pheasants or anything else over the course of a day simply defies any logic. I think such people need to cop on to the fact that buzzards or any other bop are totally different to the likes of mink,fox etc. when it comes to their role in natural food chains etc.

OpenYourEyes

The Journal covered it too, also adding a somewhat more positive story about a Buzzard being released again having been hit by a car - hopefully it doesn't meet a similar fate to the other one!

http://www.thejournal.ie/buzzard-shot-ispca-1796511-Nov2014/

Graces7

dodderangler wrote: »

Lads you know I hunt myself. I was being the highest form of sarcasm in my post.
I reckon more pheasants are hit by cars than actually taken by buzzards.
Just the discussion about buzzards not long ago in hunting forum made me laugh.
And with regards on a buzzard taking a fully grown cock pheasant.!
My Harris hawk female struggled with one with myself having to dispatch it. A buzzard with it's small feet would be extremely lucky to actually kill one especially with the strong feet of a cock pheasant

Pheasants have no road sense;) They walk down the lane here as I am trying to get out and stroll along with great aplomb.. Not hit one yet thankfully.

Appalled at the dead buzzard.

dodderangler

Most would be released birds that just walk out infront of cars
I do talk t truck drivers when im working on their trucks and they've often hit them as they're driving country roads but a lot hit the roof or side of the truck

Capercaille

dodderangler wrote: »

Most would be released birds that just walk out infront of cars
I do talk t truck drivers when im working on their trucks and they've often hit them as they're driving country roads but a lot hit the roof or side of the truck

A lot of released pheasants are little more than domestic chickens ill-equipped for life in the wild. Easy prey for foxes. They walk in front of cars unaware of the dangers.

My own cat once brought back a newly released pheasant to the house. Even with several bells on his collar he caught the bird.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

A pheasant hunter here last year walked up to a pheasant and tried to shoo it into flight but the bird just kept walking a few yards in front of him. Eventually the hunter fired a shot in the air and then ****vthe bird when it took flight. Hardly sport or skill!

homerhop

To say only reared birds stroll along isn't quiet true, I see birds on the roads here where I have to stop and blow the horn to get them to move out of the way. These are birds that are not pen reared

Woodville56

Capercaille wrote: »

A lot of released pheasants are little more than domestic chickens ill-equipped for life in the wild. Easy prey for foxes. They walk in front of cars unaware of the dangers.

My own cat once brought back a newly released pheasant to the house. Even with several bells on his collar he caught the bird.

I get an adult cock pheasant in the garden regularly feeding on the fallen seed from the bird feeders ! Quite approachable too ! Just hoping he keeps his head down and out of sight of the gun clubs lads - the lands around the house are preserved but that doesn't appear to be much of a deterrent to rogue shooters !

Birdnuts

homerhop wrote: »

To say only reared birds stroll along isn't quiet true, I see birds on the roads here where I have to stop and blow the horn to get them to move out of the way. These are birds that are not pen reared

Yeah - gamebirds in general aren't the brightest. Any bird that prefers to run rather than fly from danger is going to be vulnerable to traffic and the like. Also cos many roads are quiet narrow they can have difficulty taking off if they do deceide to fly and are facing the wrong way

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Woodville56 wrote: »

I get an adult cock pheasant in the garden regularly feeding on the fallen seed from the bird feeders ! Quite approachable too ! Just hoping he keeps his head down and out of sight of the gun clubs lads - the lands around the house are preserved but that doesn't appear to be much of a deterrent to rogue shooters !

It all depends on who has preserved the land. It is often a gun club. Preserved is not a reserve.

dodderangler

Sure go onto YouTube and just watch the Americans hunt pheasants
They do kick pheasants into the air when they won't flush.
Don't get me started on driven shoots with Americans throwing the birds from treetops for the lads to shoot under neath

homerhop

dodderangler wrote: »

Sure go onto YouTube and just watch the Americans hunt pheasants
They do kick pheasants into the air when they won't flush.
Don't get me started on driven shoots with Americans throwing the birds from treetops for the lads to shoot under neath

You cannot compare the U.S. with here, two completely different mindsets.

dodderangler

homerhop wrote: »

You cannot compare the U.S. with here, two completely different mindsets.

Totally different is true but not exactly saints over here either

homerhop

dodderangler wrote: »

Totally different is true but not exactly saints over here either

That can be said about any aspect of life here.

OpenYourEyes

To be fair I think Dodderangler was pointing out the extreme end of pheasant-shooting, he wasn't implying that all/most/many pheasant-shooters are like that.

As Homerhop says, there are bad elements of every community unfortunately. I think we can all acknowledge that without tarring everyone in that group with the same brush either.

homerhop

I understand that, am just sick that we get tarred in the way we do. I have mentioned it before, I have brought people over to the wood our gun club has to show them the buzzards as they have never seem them, I know where to see them in the evening and I know where they nest, a pretty impressive nest to see.
A local farmer has them nesting on his land this year and I was chatting to his wife, saying I walk down the road to look at them when the weather is fine, 2 adults and a chick, I told her where to go and roughly what time, and even the tree they had hatched in. I love to see them, I enjoy hearing them call and seeing them circling high in the summer sky.

Woodville56

Susan Odd Tile wrote: »

It all depends on who has preserved the land. It is often a gun club. Preserved is not a reserve.

Preserved by the landowner with signage that hunting and shooting forbidden

OpenYourEyes

With regards the recent Buzzard shooting, I've seen hunters on facebook and other social media sites (as well as here) condemn the shooting in the strongest terms, and the few hunters I know have all been delighted and curious whenever they've seen a Buzzard when they're out and about.

(speaking as mod now)
But let's leave it at that - this thread is about raptor persecution incidents, let's keep it on-topic. We can have general Buzzard discussion elsewhere ( I think we have a Buzzard thread...)