BMW Timing Chain

Ulrikaka

My car left me stranded on the M50 this week is rush hour traffic. I have a 08 320d Touring. I was towed to Joe Duffy's where (after giving them permission to take off the cylinder etc to get access to the engine) they told me the timing chain had gone and crankshank etc needed replacing. I've been reading horror stories on line since this happened to me.

Joe Duffy came back saying the cost of repair is almost €8k but BMW will contribute €4,400 - leaving me with a substantial balance. I subsequently rang BMW directly to see if they would contribute any more and they told me they are paying 100% towards the parts. Hence the balance of €3,500 is for labour to Joe Duffy. Is this not an obscene cost?? They previously mentioned it would take 2 days to replace. I feel I'm being totally screwed 'cos they already have the engine taken apart so I can hardly pack it up and leave them ..........

Has any body else any experience of this and does the labour cost seem right??

jetfiremuck

They are covering everything costwise to them in the 3500 they are offering you. The dealer is getting the parts at cost and warranty rate on the repair will cover the dealers end. Id check an indy and aftermarket for comparison. Strange how thed know it needs a crank with a cyl head pull.

jetfiremuck

Forgot to add whats a used engine making now. Might be a way to go. Good luck.

Avns1s

jetfiremuck wrote: »

They are covering everything costwise to them in the 3500 they are offering you. The dealer is getting the parts at cost and warranty rate on the repair will cover the dealers end. Id check an indy and aftermarket for comparison. Strange how thed know it needs a crank with a cyl head pull.

Because its a known issue (hence the token goodwill from BMW) and that's part of the repair.

bazz26

jetfiremuck wrote: »

Forgot to add whats a used engine making now. Might be a way to go. Good luck.

And buy another engine that may eat it's chain too?

OP, did you price the work for a good BMW indy garage, it might work out cheaper getting it done by an indy even though BMW will not contribute towards the cost. Worth ringing around for quotes anyway. It would sicken me to pay a penny to a BMW dealer money to fix a known BMW design flaw and would only do so if it was the cheapest option. These engines are a disaster.

HandsomeDan

bazz26 wrote: »

And buy another engine that may eat it's chain too?

OP, did you price the work for a good BMW indy garage, it might work out cheaper getting it done by an indy even though BMW will not contribute towards the cost. Worth ringing around for quotes anyway. It would sicken me to pay a penny to a BMW dealer money to fix a known BMW design flaw and would only do so if it was the cheapest option. These engines are a disaster.

Sorry Baz, what % of these engine chains are failing, do you you know?

bazz26

Don't know the percentages but it is common enough. Plenty of chatter about cases on owner's forums.

mickdw

jetfiremuck wrote: »

They are covering everything costwise to them in the 3500 they are offering you. The dealer is getting the parts at cost and warranty rate on the repair will cover the dealers end. Id check an indy and aftermarket for comparison. Strange how thed know it needs a crank with a cyl head pull.

Didn't the op say that the parts are being provided free by bmw so the 3600 is all for the dealer. Seems like an utter disgrace to me.

bazz26

mickdw wrote: »

Didn't the op say that the parts are being provided free by bmw so the 3600 is all for the dealer. Seems like an utter disgrace to me.

Yep. Paying a BMW dealer to fix a BMW engine design fault.

This has come up a few times here. If this was the U.S, BMW would have been sued a long time ago and issue recalls.

A bit like VAG's DSG and Multitronic failures. They were sued and forced to offer 10 year warranties.

E.U citizens get screwed big time by auto companies.

I'd be seriously worried if I had one of these engines.

Not good rep for Bavarian Motor Works !

Idbatterim

Op google valdas motor confidence. Get a price from him... It's bloody obscene money. I take it your going to have to pay for whats already been done?

readytosnap

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd be seriously worried if I had one of these engines.

!

I drive a 06 e90 318i, does that have one of those engines? I thought that if your car had a chain as opposed to a belt then you would never have a problem with it? obviously that last sentence confirms my lack of knowledge in relation to cars.

I can't believe what they are charging, is the car not under warranty?

Scortho

readytosnap wrote: »

I drive a 06 e90 318i, does that have one of those engines? I thought that if your car had a chain as opposed to a belt then you would never have a problem with it? obviously that last sentence confirms my lack of knowledge in relation to cars.

I can't believe what they are charging, is the car not under warranty?

If your car has a chain it's not meant to be replaced. Technically that is.
They're meant to last the lifetime of the engine.

Nope you don't have one.
4 cylinder Diesel bmws from 2007 on have this issue.

Cerco

Scortho wrote: »

If your car has a chain it's not meant to be replaced. Technically that is.
They're meant to last the lifetime of the engine.

Nope you don't have one.
4 cylinder Diesel bmws from 2007 on have this issue.

Not all 2007's, only those with the N series engine.

road_high

That really is shocking stuff on a modern car. Is it just me or have cars gotten less reliable again with mega repair bills to boot? At least back in the day even if a car had problems, the bills would envariably in the 100s. Not multiple 1,000s.

Scortho

Cerco wrote: »

Not all 2007's, only those with the N series engine.

Apologies.

mickdw

road_high wrote: »

That really is shocking stuff on a modern car. Is it just me or have cars gotten less reliable again with mega repair bills to boot? At least back in the day even if a car had problems, the bills would envariably in the 100s. Not multiple 1,000s.

Its really not acceptable at all. Ordinary people cannot afford to drop 3 to 4k on rabdom failures in what is a normal run of the mill car. To be honest, if I was running a porsche 911, would be pretty pissed with an 8k bill for a repair. To think that bmw dealers come up with these type of bills regularly to repair basic diesel saloons is bordering on the ridiculous.

HandsomeDan

mickdw wrote: »

Its really not acceptable at all. Ordinary people cannot afford to drop 3 to 4k on rabdom failures in what is a normal run of the mill car. To be honest, if I was running a porsche 911, would be pretty pissed with an 8k bill for a repair. To think that bmw dealers come up with these type of bills regularly to repair basic diesel saloons is bordering on the ridiculous.

Those car sold for 40-50k when they came out. Nothing run of the mill about them. An the chain going is defo not a typical repair.

Outkast_IRE

Honestly If this happened me, on a car with a perfect service record, I would be taking a case against them pronto, I doubt the case would ever see the courtroom as BMW know if it set a precedent they would be in deep trouble.

If owners who shelled out for this already grouped together too and took group action the costs could be spread out amongst the owners.

Scortho

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

Honestly If this happened me, on a car with a perfect service record, I would be taking a case against them pronto, I doubt the case would ever see the courtroom as BMW know if it set a precedent they would be in deep trouble.

You'd be better off getting a bunch of owners who it's happened to, spread out costs of legal route which could be high.

If it's one owner, they very well could go to court as the costs would be massive, which would put most off it.
If it was a couple of hundred owners however you wouldn't be put off as much by potential legal costs which could run into 6 figures.

If it was me, I'd be taking a hit on the car and selling it as quickly as possible...and that's coming from an alfa owner.

road_high

mickdw wrote: »

Its really not acceptable at all. Ordinary people cannot afford to drop 3 to 4k on rabdom failures in what is a normal run of the mill car. To be honest, if I was running a porsche 911, would be pretty pissed with an 8k bill for a repair. To think that bmw dealers come up with these type of bills regularly to repair basic diesel saloons is bordering on the ridiculous.

Yep I feel ordinary people are being conned into buying cars they assume are going to be reliable (within reason of course), but there's nothing reasonable about bills like this. And they appear to be all to common on forums like this.
I'd be very cautious buying BMW. Their "good name" in my eyes has evaporated long ago.
Christ at least with so-called unreliable makes like Fiat, the repair bills tended to be affordable at least.

myshirt

Still waiting for someone to come along and give out about a 4 pot 177bhp engine.

As I see it, a good start is to change the oil and filter every 12,000 miles, and drive the car correctly.

Let it warm before giving it welly. Don't drive it hard. Don't drive a diesel if you don't need a diesel. And don't let the wife behind the wheel.

Cerco

myshirt wrote: »

Still waiting for someone to come along and give out about a 4 pot 177bhp engine.

As I see it, a good start is to change the oil and filter every 12,000 miles, and drive the car correctly.

Let it warm before giving it welly. Don't drive it hard. Don't drive a diesel if you don't need a diesel. And don't let the wife behind the wheel.

What has any of that got to do with a manufacturing/design problem?

TBi

HandsomeDan wrote: »

An the chain going is defo not a typical repair.

It shouldn't be a typical failure either. I needed my chain replaced in my Mini after 80k km's. It had stretched so much I was lucky it hadn't jumped and killed the engine.

Funnily enough the problem only affects the mini (BMW), not the Peugeot with same engine...

Elessar

I have a car with this same engine type (318D Msport 2009) and all this worries me. No issues yet thank god and it's a great car (40k miles) and still in warranty until May. I think I'll extend it past that!

What are the signs of a failing chain?

myshirt

Cerco wrote: »

What has any of that got to do with a manufacturing/design problem?

Oh no, point taken. It is fundamentally a design fault. I accept that.

Nevertheless, you see some high mileage N47's around with no problems. Regular servicing and proper care are a big factor. 20k service intervals are nuts. Clean oil is a must. As is driving a diesel the way a diesel is supposed to be driven.

HandsomeDan

Elessar wrote: »

I have a car with this same engine type (318D Msport 2009) and all this worries me. No issues yet thank god and it's a great car (40k miles) and still in warranty until May. I think I'll extend it past that!

What are the signs of a failing chain?

I've the same engine with 120k miles, and no problems.

Appaerntly this is the first sign:

But a rattle does not necessarily mean the chain will ever go.

Leonard Hofstadter

myshirt wrote: »

Oh no, point taken. It is fundamentally a design fault. I accept that.

Nevertheless, you see some high mileage N47's around with no problems. Regular servicing and proper care are a big factor. 20k service intervals are nuts. Clean oil is a must. As is driving a diesel the way a diesel is supposed to be driven.

Well there's no doubt that the ridiculous service intervals that are allowed with these engines is part of the reason they give trouble. I reckon if someone serviced one of these at least every 12k miles or once a year, the odds of having this problem would be massively reduced.

However, it does not change the fact that the problem boils down to a manufacturing fault, and despite updating the design of the engine in 2009, they still didn't fix the problem until engines built on and from January 2011, and if you look on youtube you will see cars from 2012 and 2013 with the problem, though I don't know if this is the same problem or something else.

Part of the reason this repair is so bloody expensive is because BMW in their infinite wisdom decided to move the chain and its ancillaries from the front of the engine to the rear of the engine. It wouldn't cost half as much to do this job if they were at the front, because the engine wouldn't need to come out of the car - as is the case with the N47.

By the way, the N57 six cylinder diesels have the exact same problem, but there are far fewer of them around, and the 3 and 5 series didn't get this engine until 2010 (or 2009 in the case of the 330d when the facelifted model was introduced).

unkel

Moral of the story, don't buy a 4-pot BMW. Wasn't a good idea 30 years ago, still isn't now :pac:

If you can't afford a proper BMW, buy a Golf or a Honda or something

Elessar wrote: »

I have a car with this same engine type (318D Msport 2009) and all this worries me. No issues yet thank god and it's a great car (40k miles) and still in warranty until May. I think I'll extend it past that!

Do extend! Those extended warranties offer spectacular value for money. Don't worry about the chain in your case just yet. I have absolutely no evidence, but from reading about the chain issue on forums I have formed the opinion that the chain tends to break on cars over 100k km that weren't maintained too well (in my book, they might have been serviced on the dot according to the manufacturers schedule)

Mech1

Quote from above, "Part of the reason this repair is so bloody expensive is because BMW in their infinite wisdom decided to move the chain and its ancillaries from the front of the engine to the rear of the engine. It wouldn't cost half as much to do this job if they were at the front, because the engine wouldn't need to come out of the car"


I am a professional mechanic, and have been since I finished my exams (city +guilds) in 1985, so I have seen inside a few engines, and been under a few dashes at this stage.

I am bewildered and confused why manufacturers consistently try to reinvent the wheel. Im all for technology moving on and some great improvements have been made in my time, like moving from contact breaker points to hall sensors to distributorless, like carbs to fuel injection, like OHV to OHC to name a few. But some "developments" of late just seem to be a case of change for change sake, like who thinks a dual mass flywheel is a great invention?

I would love to see a manufacturer bring out a new version of some late 90's engines tuned and refined to meet todays emission levels. It would cost a lot less.

Scortho

Mech1 wrote: »

Quote from above, "Part of the reason this repair is so bloody expensive is because BMW in their infinite wisdom decided to move the chain and its ancillaries from the front of the engine to the rear of the engine. It wouldn't cost half as much to do this job if they were at the front, because the engine wouldn't need to come out of the car"


I am a professional mechanic, and have been since I finished my exams (city +guilds) in 1985, so I have seen inside a few engines, and been under a few dashes at this stage.

I am bewildered and confused why manufacturers consistently try to reinvent the wheel. Im all for technology moving on and some great improvements have been made in my time, like moving from contact breaker points to hall sensors to distributorless, like carbs to fuel injection, like OHV to OHC to name a few. But some "developments" of late just seem to be a case of change for change sake, like who thinks a dual mass flywheel is a great invention?

I would love to see a manufacturer bring out a new version of some late 90's engines tuned and refined to meet todays emission levels. It would cost a lot less.

I think we'd all love to see a busso that could pass the pocy emissions.

unkel

Yeah unfortunately we all have to be realistic so car manufacturers are telling us...

I mean a BMW 328i (must be the famous BMW straight 6, right?), nah, having 4 cylinders and just a tiny 2l engine

Mercedes CLA45 AMG (Wow, must be a big V8, right?), nah another tiny 2l 4 cylinder engine

I for one will strive to own and drive nice N/A cars with at least 6 cylinders as long as my (tiny) budget allows me. That ^^^, Sirs, is not progress :mad:

Stheno

unkel wrote: »

Mercedes CLA45 AMG (Wow, must be a big V8, right?), nah another tiny 2l 4 cylinder engine

There goes my idiot approach to Mercs. 4.5 AMG to me used be a 4.5l powerhouse

Gumbo

unkel wrote: »

Do extend! Those extended warranties offer spectacular value for money. Don't worry about the chain in your case just yet. I have absolutely no evidence, but from reading about the chain issue on forums I have formed the opinion that the chain tends to break on cars over 100k km that weren't maintained too well (in my book, they might have been serviced on the dot according to the manufacturers schedule)

Ives even the chain go on 20d's with less than 30k on them. Some of them with complete BMW service history and still on their BMW service pack /warranty.

road_high

kceire wrote: »

Ives even the chain go on 20d's with less than 30k on them. Some of them with complete BMW service history and still on their BMW service pack /warranty.

Would you recommend somebody buy one based on what you've seen?

unkel

road_high wrote: »

Would you recommend somebody buy one based on what you've seen?

Are you kidding? Don't touch any of them unless you are covered by a BMW warranty.

bazz26

I had one for 3 years and 75k miles with no issues but I moved it on there a few months ago as at 5 years old I didn't want to push my luck. They can fail at any mileage irrespective of how well they have been maintained so it is down to pure pot luck imo. Would I buy another BMW with that engine? Not a chance.

The reason BMW haven't issued a recall is because it would cost them an absolute fortune to fix all of them and they can get away with it. While at the same time looking all noble offering what they consider goodwill when in fact all they are doing is creating business for their network of dealers. The idea of handing over thousands to one of their dealers to fix their mess would be both sickening and insulting to be honest.

shedweller

jetfiremuck wrote: »

They are covering everything costwise to them in the 3500 they are offering you. The dealer is getting the parts at cost and warranty rate on the repair will cover the dealers end. Id check an indy and aftermarket for comparison. Strange how thed know it needs a crank with a cyl head pull.

The sprocket for the timing chain is welded to the crankshaft. The chain wore so much that the sprocket has to be replaced too. Hence a new crankshaft. They knew it as soon as they heard the chain broke.
What i'd like to know is how different is the bmw TC to other more reliable (not getting at bmw, just an observation!) brands of TC. Are they made by the same manufacturer and actually the same chain? Or different? Is it an oiling issue unique to bmw?
Is there a huge difference in the load on the TC vs other makers?

HandsomeDan

unkel wrote: »

If you can't afford a proper BMW, buy a Golf or a Honda or something

Wouldn't swap my 4cyl 3 series for any poxy honda or golf. No thank you.

And, as has been said, 6cyl are not immune.

gobbler

I have a 2005 model, e90 n46, 320i rattling from the engine a few weeks ago, got worse, brought to a garage instead of dealer, timing chain on its way out, opened the oil cap with the engine switched on pretty noisy, so i was quoted €1300, not too bad but he had 2 other bmw's in the garage for the same issue, seems to be a known issue to all the garages anyway! Knocked my confidence in bmw thats for sure. I Seem to have to add oil every week or 2 so thats not good either.

Blazer

A few lads have priced them over on bmw-drivers.net for Indy and it comes in around €1800 or so.
One guy even did the job himself.:pac:

thread here about the issues

http://www.bmw-driver.net/forum/showthread.php?t=39216&highlight=n47

Merl1n

Does the 2010 on 2litre bmw diesel have the same timing chain problem?

weekaizer

Merl1n wrote: »

Does the 2010 on 2litre bmw diesel have the same timing chain problem?

Yeap, it's affects BMW 1,3 and 5 series 2 litre diesel from Mid 07 to 2011..

Gumbo

road_high wrote: »

Would you recommend somebody buy one based on what you've seen?

It's pot luck to be honest.

I've a 2009 520d sport in the house here, one owner from new with 30k km on it and full documented service history, we'll maintained and looked after, hasn't gone yet, fingers crossed!!! It's not mine though.

I personally wouldn't buy anything less than a 25d engine.

embraer170

captainspeed wrote: »

Well there's no doubt that the ridiculous service intervals that are allowed with these engines is part of the reason they give trouble. I reckon if someone serviced one of these at least every 12k miles or once a year, the odds of having this problem would be massively reduced.

What kind of service would you expect to be done to the car every year / 12k miles, assuming what BMW requires is not sufficient?

Gumbo

embraer170 wrote: »

What kind of service would you expect to be done to the car every year / 12k miles, assuming what BMW requires is not sufficient?

Every year the oil and filter should be changed at a bare minimum regardless if mileage. If your doing big miles then every 10k km would be my service intervals.

Every year :
Oil
Oil filter
Air filter
Good all round check

Every 2nd year :
Oil
Oil filter
Air filter
Turbo filter
Brake fluid
Good all round check

Then whatever pops up in the mean time ie pads wiper etc

The timing chain issue is a design fault, no amount of good servicing will fix it, if it's Gona go its Gona go no matter what and there's no time frame or mileage frame in which it can happen. I seen a 2008 one with 60k in it go last week in a well known Dublin main dealer.

Bigus

shedweller wrote: »

The sprocket for the timing chain is welded to the crankshaft. The chain wore so much that the sprocket has to be replaced too. Hence a new crankshaft. They knew it as soon as they heard the chain broke.
What i'd like to know is how different is the bmw TC to other more reliable (not getting at bmw, just an observation!) brands of TC. Are they made by the same manufacturer and actually the same chain? Or different? Is it an oiling issue unique to bmw?
Is there a huge difference in the load on the TC vs other makers?

Mercedes C180 petrols and E200 from 2003 on are eating timing chains and variator Gears as well, even at low miles ,well maintained. Very widespread.

Also Vw 1.4 tsi and polo 1.2 aswell a petrol passats, that don't have a belt anymore, are chewing timing chains.

If you want to know about mechanical maladies or serious issues of a car you might be interested second hand, go into the relevant parts department and they'll soon tell you what are the most common current issues.

Bigus

Here's the set up from a lad on donedeal specialising in the n47 , you can see from the crankshaft that this is the clutch end of the engine.

shedweller

This is a worrying state of affairs eh?
What was once a thing that never saw the light of day after installation is now something that wears out as quick as a belt and needs sprockets replaced too. This means crankshafts in some cases and given certain cases, may almost write off a car! At this rate, in a few years we'll be writing off a car because the headlight has gone! Well not really but still...

mickdw

shedweller wrote: »

! At this rate, in a few years we'll be writing off a car because the headlight has gone! Well not really but still...

Well we did have a thread here about an oldish volvo that main dealer failed to rectify a poorly aligned light and wanted 850 to replace meaning it would be uneconomical. All it needed was a bit of a botch to get it through the test.

shedweller

mickdw wrote: »

Well we did have a thread here about an oldish volvo that main dealer failed to rectify a poorly aligned light and wanted 850 to replace meaning it would be uneconomical. All it needed was a bit of a botch to get it through the test.

Ya thats further along the same lines. A broken timing chain would write off a much newer car.