Another bus lane query

highdef

OK, sorry for another one of these threads but I just want to be sure about something. There are several bus lanes around the place that have a bus lane sign but no sign saying what times the lane is active. If there are no times displayed, I believe that it's open for every Joe Soap to use. Would this be correct?
What made me think was one night on the way home recently, I had to take a detour on the way home which brought me on the outer ring road in Dublin - R136, a road I never travel on a normal basis. This road has a good few roundabouts and traffic light controlled junctions so after every roundabout or junction, a new bus lane begins.
However, the majority of the bus lanes don't display times. As far as I am concerned, this means I can use them (and should use them as a regular left/driving lane) and I did so. This link gives an example of one of the signs in question: https://www.google.ie/maps?ll=53.304211,-6.391296&spn=0.131301,0.346413&cbp=12,335.8,,1,7.79&layer=c&panoid=Jqe42IKF0BZHiNXkfDwRcQ&cbll=53.328679,-6.432331&t=h&z=12

ezra_pound

"Bus lane" means a part of a roadway marked with the roadway markings referred to in article 4 and provided with the regulatory traffic sign referred to in article 5 of these Regulations in which classes of vehicles other than omnibuses, classes of vehicles set out in bye-laws relating to the bus lane and, where sign A or B referred to in the Second Schedule to these Regulations is provided in conjunction with a bus lane, pedal bicycles, are prohibited or are prohibited between the times indicated on a plate provided in accordance with article 5 (2) of these Regulations.

... so you were breaking the law.
Unless a time is indicated then it is always a bus lane.

highdef wrote: »

OK, sorry for another one of these threads but I just want to be sure about something. There are several bus lanes around the place that have a bus lane sign but no sign saying what times the lane is active. If there are no times displayed, I believe that it's open for every Joe Soap to use. Would this be correct?
What made me think was one night on the way home recently, I had to take a detour on the way home which brought me on the outer ring road in Dublin - R136, a road I never travel on a normal basis. This road has a good few roundabouts and traffic light controlled junctions so after every roundabout or junction, a new bus lane begins.
However, the majority of the bus lanes don't display times. As far as I am concerned, this means I can use them (and should use them as a regular left/driving lane) and I did so. This link gives an example of one of the signs in question: https://www.google.ie/maps?ll=53.304211,-6.391296&spn=0.131301,0.346413&cbp=12,335.8,,1,7.79&layer=c&panoid=Jqe42IKF0BZHiNXkfDwRcQ&cbll=53.328679,-6.432331&t=h&z=12

highdef

Thanks for that ezra_pound. I had read somewhere before (probably here on Boards) that a bus lane sign must also display the times but it would appear not to be the case, going by what you have said. If this is indeed the case, what is the point in wasting money making hundreds of signs stating that a bus lane is a 24 hour one when they could simply not put a 24 hour sign up in the first place?

And also, why do some bus lanes have no 24 hour signs and others do, when having one will suffice, legally.....it's not exactly consistent?

Del2005

ezra_pound wrote: »

"Bus lane" means a part of a roadway marked with the roadway markings referred to in article 4 and provided with the regulatory traffic sign referred to in article 5 of these Regulations in which classes of vehicles other than omnibuses, classes of vehicles set out in bye-laws relating to the bus lane and, where sign A or B referred to in the Second Schedule to these Regulations is provided in conjunction with a bus lane, pedal bicycles, are prohibited or are prohibited between the times indicated on a plate provided in accordance with article 5 (2) of these Regulations.

... so you were breaking the law.
Unless a time is indicated then it is always a bus lane.

Link to the statue please.

monument

A sign with no time / day plate = 24 hours, 7 days a week.

Same go for clear ways, no parking, cycle lanes etc.

monument

ezra_pound wrote: »

"Bus lane" means a part of a roadway marked with the roadway markings referred to in article 4 and provided with the regulatory traffic sign referred to in article 5 of these Regulations in which classes of vehicles other than omnibuses, classes of vehicles set out in bye-laws relating to the bus lane and, where sign A or B referred to in the Second Schedule to these Regulations is provided in conjunction with a bus lane, pedal bicycles, are prohibited or are prohibited between the times indicated on a plate provided in accordance with article 5 (2) of these Regulations.

... so you were breaking the law.
Unless a time is indicated then it is always a bus lane.

Please don't post outdated sections of law or at lease please name/date or link to any SI or Act you are quoting.

highdef

monument wrote: »

A sign with no time / day plate = 24 hours, 7 days a week.

Same go for clear ways, no parking, cycle lanes etc.

Thank you. It still does not answer my other question though - what is the point in wasting money making hundreds of signs stating that a bus lane is a 24 hour one when they could simply not put a 24 hour sign up in the first place?

lil5

Probably the same reason why they put 'no parking' garda cones on double yellow lines ...

ezra_pound

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1980/en/si/0358.html

Del2005 wrote: »

Link to the statue please.

AlekSmart

highdef wrote: »

OK, sorry for another one of these threads but I just want to be sure about something. There are several bus lanes around the place that have a bus lane sign but no sign saying what times the lane is active. If there are no times displayed, I believe that it's open for every Joe Soap to use. Would this be correct?
What made me think was one night on the way home recently, I had to take a detour on the way home which brought me on the outer ring road in Dublin - R136, a road I never travel on a normal basis. This road has a good few roundabouts and traffic light controlled junctions so after every roundabout or junction, a new bus lane begins.
However, the majority of the bus lanes don't display times. As far as I am concerned, this means I can use them (and should use them as a regular left/driving lane) and I did so. This link gives an example of one of the signs in question: https://www.google.ie/maps?ll=53.304211,-6.391296&spn=0.131301,0.346413&cbp=12,335.8,,1,7.79&layer=c&panoid=Jqe42IKF0BZHiNXkfDwRcQ&cbll=53.328679,-6.432331&t=h&z=12

I rather suspect Highdef,that you'll be grand....I would not be surprised to find that the necessary orders,bye-laws and whatever other instruments may be required have not been enacted for such stretches.

dowlingm

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2011/en/si/0527.html :rolleyes: Make way for the Zil!

ezra_pound

AlekSmart wrote: »

I rather suspect Highdef,that you'll be grand....I would not be surprised to find that the necessary orders,bye-laws and whatever other instruments may be required have not been enacted for such stretches.

Why do you think this?
DO you think the same of all bus lanes in he country? All that is needed is a bye law from council declaring bus lane to be promulgated in iris oifigiuil.

dowlingm

ROTR:

Where there is a bus lane, you will see an upright blue and white sign on the side of the road on a pole and on the roadway there will be markings of a continuous white line and the words ‘Lána Bus’. You must obey the road marking and the sign. The white plate shows when the section of road is meant only for the buses shown. Normally bus lanes operate from 7am to 7pm or during peak hours. Outside these times, all traffic may use them. You should check the information plate to confirm the time limits that apply.

"Normally" is not a word that should appear in a publication like ROTR in my view as it introduces doubt. One interpretation is that the sign is valid without a time plate with a "default" of 7-7, another is that all signs must have time plates to be valid with the most common signage being 7-7 (which introduces a casual assumption even though they try and roll it back later).

In my view, a document like that should say something closer to "a bus lane sign is only valid when accompanied by a sign which either says "AT ALL TIMES" or "between (start time) and (finish time). As each lane is different and lane timings may be changed, be diligent in checking the operative time on each occasion you approach a bus lane."

ezra_pound

In law it is a 24 hour bus lane unless otherwise specified. This is as per 1981 law I linked.

Unless this has since been changed I don't see the alternative argument.

monument

dowlingm wrote: »

ROTR:
"Normally" is not a word that should appear in a publication like ROTR in my view as it introduces doubt. One interpretation is that the sign is valid without a time plate with a "default" of 7-7, another is that all signs must have time plates to be valid with the most common signage being 7-7 (which introduces a casual assumption even though they try and roll it back later).

In my view, a document like that should say something closer to "a bus lane sign is only valid when accompanied by a sign which either says "AT ALL TIMES" or "between (start time) and (finish time). As each lane is different and lane timings may be changed, be diligent in checking the operative time on each occasion you approach a bus lane."

The ROTR is a mess of a document. You should not expect much from it.

Del2005

dowlingm wrote: »

ROTR:
"Normally" is not a word that should appear in a publication like ROTR in my view as it introduces doubt. One interpretation is that the sign is valid without a time plate with a "default" of 7-7, another is that all signs must have time plates to be valid with the most common signage being 7-7 (which introduces a casual assumption even though they try and roll it back later).

In my view, a document like that should say something closer to "a bus lane sign is only valid when accompanied by a sign which either says "AT ALL TIMES" or "between (start time) and (finish time). As each lane is different and lane timings may be changed, be diligent in checking the operative time on each occasion you approach a bus lane."

On one of the first few pages of the ROTR it says it's an interpretation of the law. To get the law you have to dig through the Statutes, which has been already posted, and then try and figure out what it means in English.

The placing of 24/7 signs on bus lanes is what causes the confusion, there should only be time signs on bus lanes which open to other traffic. What makes it even worst is that they use an orange sign with "Bus Lane Not in Use" which doesn't have a legal basis so you could get done for driving in a bus lane if a Garda got anal enough, they have to cover the signs to open a bus lane to traffic.

dowlingm

Del2005 wrote: »

On one of the first few pages of the ROTR it says it's an interpretation of the law. To get the law you have to dig through the Statutes, which has been already posted, and then try and figure out what it means in English.

In addition, there may be case law which has been decided which might be known by the district/circuit court solicitors but which Joe Public wouldn't necessarily be able to find easily.

highdef

OK, have been thinking about this a bit more. Monument said "A sign with no time / day plate = 24 hours, 7 days a week." Does this mean, for example, if there is a pole where there should be a sign but there is none present (for whatever reason), then the bus lane can be used?

A case in point is the R139 (formerly the N32) between the M50 and Malahide Road. The road markings on that road suggest that there is a bus lane in each direction and there are poles along the length of the road where the bus lane signs used to be. Now I happen to know that the bus lane is no longer a bus lane but going by the fact that the majority of people drive in the right hand lane, most people believe the bus lane is still in use.

monument

highdef wrote: »

OK, have been thinking about this a bit more. Monument said "A sign with no time / day plate = 24 hours, 7 days a week." Does this mean, for example, if there is a pole where there should be a sign but there is none present (for whatever reason), then the bus lane can be used?

A case in point is the R139 (formerly the N32) between the M50 and Malahide Road. The road markings on that road suggest that there is a bus lane in each direction and there are poles along the length of the road where the bus lane signs used to be. Now I happen to know that the bus lane is no longer a bus lane but going by the fact that the majority of people drive in the right hand lane, most people believe the bus lane is still in use.

I'm not replying directly as I can't say what is or isn't at that example, but if there's no sign than there's no bus lane. The law requires the sign to be in place.

A judge is always open to taking a different view.