Preschool Montessori - too hyper?

S.R.

Hi. My Child is going to preschool montessori. And today I have been told he is too hyper and this group is not for him, they can't manage with him any more.They ask us not to come anymore.Have anyone been in this situation?

spurious

I've moved this to a more appropriate forum.

byhookorbycrook

What kind of behaviours have been happening?

S.R.

He would do what he wants to do, not what he asked to do by minders. Generally he would not take part in activities. For example, he would wonder around room, while other kids were busy doing some drawing etc.
I have to say, son does not understand english well and does not speak well, I mean not yet. But even when son does understand what minders ask him to do, very often he would not do. Partly I blame his behaviour on language problems, we are not Irish and my son used to hear 3 languages since he was born.
Also manager says he might have attention deficit disorder and suggested to contact HSE to check him. In creche with other kids son does not concentrate while playing: he might take one toy, next minute second, minute later third one. He does not participate in everyday activities with other kids. But at home he does concentrate. He can sit calmly for 30 minutes and even more while building blocks, doing puzzle or playing with railway. Manager started complaining about son's behaviour on third day, and almost every day since. I knew straight away she would be happy if we stopped attending her creche. Then she suggested that son might need 3-4 months to settle in and said something like "we'll see how things go", but today he said this place is not for my son, that minders can not manage him. It was like she was telling us not to come anymore.
My son is almost 4 year old and is very stubborn. At home very often he would do what we ask him to do as he does in creche.
What I wonder about is:
1. have anyone experience like this when manager tells you not to come anymore?
2. does manager have right to stop kid from attending?
3. if child has attention deficit then how is he able to concentrate at home?

Thank you.

gabsdot40

If it is a private school then I imagine the owner can pick and choose who comes and if they are finding your child difficult to manage they probably feel they'll be better off without him.
Do you think yourself that he has special needs. It always annoys me when people diagnose kids after spending a couple of hours with them.
The problem is that now your son has been labelled in this school it will be difficult for him to loose that label. You should find another preschool who will be willing to take him. I'm sure you will be able to . what are are you in?

Moonbeam

I can understand it from their point of view but a good large montessori should normally be able to deal with him unless he has exceptional needs.
Do you feel that their is a problem yourself?

Big Bag of Chips

Language can obviously be a big problem for kids. It will be harder for him to follow instruction if he doesn't fully tune in or listen to the direction being given to him.

Also sitting down listening to a story, or sitting around doing an activity where he can't really understand others is not going to be much fun for him, so obviously, he is not going to be too interested in doing it.

His language is something that you, as his family really really need to work on. Over the next year, before he starts primary school, you need to encourage him to listen to and speak more English. Otherwise you and his teacher will come up against similar problems.

It is impossible to say whether he has ADHD or not, and it takes a lot of visits to professional people to be diagnosed. It might be no harm going to your local Public Health Nurse. She can refer him, and if he gets seen and nothing is found, then you've lost nothing. But if something is going on with him, it'll be good to know.

Try find another Montessori. But in the meantime work on his English and trying to get him to do what he's asked.

As a matter of interest, if you ask him to do something, and he ignores you and doesn't do it, what happens?

mohawk

Hi OP
I would imagine that a preschool can ask a child to leave as its a private business. I don't know if its the ECCE year, but if it is then you can transfer to another ECCE place.

With a language barrier he might just be getting overwhelmed and so is appearing hyper to the childcare providers. In preschool there is alot of activity and noise and some children get very hyper when they are excited. If you are concerned you could go to your GP to refer you or look into getting an assessment of need from the HSE.

My little boy has autism and he attends a mainstream preschool. We had a few teething problems, but the staff have been brilliant and he now he gets glowing reports home. My son gets very hyper when excited but they have found ways to help him focus his energy in a more productive manner.

I know I am rambling but my point is that some preschools are far more accommodating then others. It might be better for both him and you if he moves to a more understanding preschool. If you are in a rural area that is easier said then done though.

Best of luck.

S.R.

gabsdot40 wrote: »

If it is a private school then I imagine the owner can pick and choose who comes and if they are finding your child difficult to manage they probably feel they'll be better off without him.
Do you think yourself that he has special needs. It always annoys me when people diagnose kids after spending a couple of hours with them.
The problem is that now your son has been labelled in this school it will be difficult for him to loose that label. You should find another preschool who will be willing to take him. I'm sure you will be able to . what are are you in?

Yes, it annoyed me too! Manager mentioned attention disorder just after 3 days, 9 hours (we are there from 9 to 12 daily), and even these 9 hours she did not spend with him coz she has to look after other group. She was called by my son's minders when they couldn't manage with him. So you are right: after just two hours she thinks my son "might" (tricky word, isn't it?) have attention problem.

Another thing is she knew at beginning that there will be hassle coz before enrolling son spend one day in creche so that we could see how it goes. And on that day after group finished manager told my wife something like "there a lot to be done to prepare your son for school".

Sorry, what do you mean by "what are you in?" ?

S.R.

Moonbeam wrote: »

I can understand it from their point of view but a good large montessori should normally be able to deal with him unless he has exceptional needs.
Do you feel that their is a problem yourself?

I can understand them too, but on other hand does manager expect every kid to be an "angel"? Everyone can not be the same. Even if there are 100 kids in group and all of them quiet and attentive it does not mean that 101st kid has to be same. May be I am wrong, but this is my opinion.

I think son does not have a problem like attention deficit. If he does then how he can sit and play or learn something at home? At home he has no attention deficit, in creche he has? Isn't it strange? I noticed, that around other kids he is less attentive, same happens when we go to playground at local park.

And it is not only my opinion. Recently we twice had an appointment with speech therapist, I mentioned to her my son's behaviour in creche, she said that she saw many kids with attention deficit and autism and she can not see anything in my son. She played with my son, they did language exercises and overall he was calm and did correctly almost everything she asked him to do. She said if he had attention deficit he would run around room and would not answer her questions or would not do what she asked him to do. Plus, we were referred to her by pediatrist, who said nothing about attention deficit or something else. Only problem he found was language skills.

S.R.

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

Language can obviously be a big problem for kids. It will be harder for him to follow instruction if he doesn't fully tune in or listen to the direction being given to him.

Also sitting down listening to a story, or sitting around doing an activity where he can't really understand others is not going to be much fun for him, so obviously, he is not going to be too interested in doing it.

His language is something that you, as his family really really need to work on. Over the next year, before he starts primary school, you need to encourage him to listen to and speak more English. Otherwise you and his teacher will come up against similar problems.

It is impossible to say whether he has ADHD or not, and it takes a lot of visits to professional people to be diagnosed. It might be no harm going to your local Public Health Nurse. She can refer him, and if he gets seen and nothing is found, then you've lost nothing. But if something is going on with him, it'll be good to know.

Try find another Montessori. But in the meantime work on his English and trying to get him to do what he's asked.

As a matter of interest, if you ask him to do something, and he ignores you and doesn't do it, what happens?

Problem is that very often he does not do what he is told to do even when he does understand! And I know he does understand many things, just do not want to do them if he does not like them or not interested in them.
Another examples of his behaviour are:

1. he would often cover his ears with his hands when he does not like something he asked to do;
2. he often goes under tables if he does not like something. But at home he never ever went under table.

Since last year I stopped using my language, only English. In last 3-4 months his English advanced a lot! He started to use sentences, he started to ask questions like "dad, where are we going?", but a lot still have to be done. Today for instance manager told my wife that my son wouldn't wait his turn when group were playing with blocks. Every kid had to take one block in turn. I said to my wife, of course he did not coz he has never heard word "turn" and we never explained to him what does it mean.

About seeing GP: today I made appointment for tomorrow. I will ask her to refer us to HSE so that they assessed my son.

When I ask him to do something, 9 times out of 10 he does it if my wife is not at home. If she is at home then problem starts. With her being around he very often becomes unruly, then it's hard to force him to do something. In any case whether is wife home or not I repeat few times instructions, if there is no reaction - I raise voice. Sometimes I lose patience and do shout. He might cry coz dad shouts and coz he does not want to do what he is told to do. I am telling you he is very stubborn, especially when his mom is with him.

By the way, sorry for my English.

S.R.

mohawk wrote: »

Hi OP
I would imagine that a preschool can ask a child to leave as its a private business. I don't know if its the ECCE year, but if it is then you can transfer to another ECCE place.

With a language barrier he might just be getting overwhelmed and so is appearing hyper to the childcare providers. In preschool there is alot of activity and noise and some children get very hyper when they are excited. If you are concerned you could go to your GP to refer you or look into getting an assessment of need from the HSE.

My little boy has autism and he attends a mainstream preschool. We had a few teething problems, but the staff have been brilliant and he now he gets glowing reports home. My son gets very hyper when excited but they have found ways to help him focus his energy in a more productive manner.

I know I am rambling but my point is that some preschools are far more accommodating then others. It might be better for both him and you if he moves to a more understanding preschool. If you are in a rural area that is easier said then done though.

Best of luck.

Yes, it is ECCE.
About language: I saw there one asian girl, she does not speak English, but understands and what is most important she does sit and do what she is asked to do. She does take part in activities with other kids, she does not touch something she should not etc. At the same time I have to take into account the fact that she has been at creche for several months now, my son only 2 weeks there.
I will try to find another creche as I want my son to interact with other kids, to learn English, to prepare for school etc. Sitting at home is not good. Problem is that I am not sure in new creche we won't be asked to leave too.

Big Bag of Chips

Even if he didn't understand the word "turn" he should have been able to figure out what was going on when he saw other kids waiting.

In that instance it doesn't sound like he didn't understand, he just didn't want to share!

Is your wife too easy on him? Does she often give in to him if he refuses to do something, or has a tantrum? She needs to realise that she is not doing him any favours by allowing him to decide what he does or doesn't do.

Playschools and Montessoris are a bit more relaxed in that they have time to coax a child and try to encourage them to join in. In school he will have to accept that he has to do what he's told. There will be one teacher with maybe 30 kids in the room. They will not be able to let him wander around and do what he likes..

There is no harm in asking the PHN or GP to refer him to somewhere. But maybe you and your wife could go to a parenting course together. It might give you ideas of how to best deal with tantrums and stubbornness (that is all fairly common in 4 year olds )

Edit: Just to add, unless the Montessori manager is only new to the profession,and has very little experience with kids then she will have dealt with many kids and various different personalities in children. I'd guess that not every other child she has ever come into contact with has been perfectly behaved. So if she has raised issues with you about his behaviour, you should take them on board. She deals with groups of children everyday. She will notice behaviour outside the "norm" for children his age. I don't mean you should accept her "diagnosis". But you should definitely talk more to her about the issues he had in school. How the teachers tried to deal with him, and if she has any suggestions that you might do at home to help him interact better with children his age.

It is not nice to hear our child being criticised but sometimes it takes somebody looking in from the outside to bring problems to our attention.

Moonbeam

If it is different behaviour to being at home then he could jsut be looking for attention and pushing boundaries which would not be very unusual at 2/3.
What age is he?

S.R.

Moonbeam wrote: »

If it is different behaviour to being at home then he could jsut be looking for attention and pushing boundaries which would not be very unusual at 2/3.
What age is he?

He will be 4 in December.

S.R.

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

Even if he didn't understand the word "turn" he should have been able to figure out what was going on when he saw other kids waiting.

In that instance it doesn't sound like he didn't understand, he just didn't want to share!

Is your wife too easy on him? Does she often give in to him if he refuses to do something, or has a tantrum? She needs to realise that she is not doing him any favours by allowing him to decide what he does or doesn't do.

Playschools and Montessoris are a bit more relaxed in that they have time to coax a child and try to encourage them to join in. In school he will have to accept that he has to do what he's told. There will be one teacher with maybe 30 kids in the room. They will not be able to let him wander around and do what he likes..

There is no harm in asking the PHN or GP to refer him to somewhere. But maybe you and your wife could go to a parenting course together. It might give you ideas of how to best deal with tantrums and stubbornness (that is all fairly common in 4 year olds )

Edit: Just to add, unless the Montessori manager is only new to the profession,and has very little experience with kids then she will have dealt with many kids and various different personalities in children. I'd guess that not every other child she has ever come into contact with has been perfectly behaved. So if she has raised issues with you about his behaviour, you should take them on board. She deals with groups of children everyday. She will notice behaviour outside the "norm" for children his age. I don't mean you should accept her "diagnosis". But you should definitely talk more to her about the issues he had in school. How the teachers tried to deal with him, and if she has any suggestions that you might do at home to help him interact better with children his age.

It is not nice to hear our child being criticised but sometimes it takes somebody looking in from the outside to bring problems to our attention.

Don't forget we weren't there, so we don't know exactly what was going on in creche. I am absolutely sure manager just tried to make things look worse than they were so that I withdrew my son. Just think: on 3rd day she stopped me to talk about my son, next day she stopped me TWICE, next day she stopped me again, then next week again! I was thinking "Why are u telling me all this day after day? I've already heard this and that! What do u want from me? I can't change my son over night." And not only to me she talked numerous times, but also to my wife!

After second time she talked to me I was absolutely sure that she was trying to put pressure on me to stop my son attending their creche. Why else would she talk to me every day repeating what she has already told me?! This week on Tuesday she finally said what I already knew she wanted: "this group is not for your son". She said it somehow by the way, if u understand what I mean. I was in hurry, she talked to me, at the same time she was talking to other parents, who came to pick their kids. I just ignored her and went home with kid. Next day my wife went to pick up son, manager stopped her and started again: "your son this, your son that", and at the end she said to my wife what she said to me on previous day: "This group is not for ur son." She didn't say it straight like "I don't want u to attend my creche", but message was clear. Manager also said that next week she is on holidays and girls won't be able to control my son without her, so she suggested my wife to come to group and look after him. Wife said that she can't coz of work and that husband can come to control him. Manager refused that saying something like "it's bad idea". Why she said it's a bad idea if I come to control him? Because I told her before few times, that when mom is not around, when kid is with dad, then he is ok. He does what I tell him to do. When wife is around, kid changes and even in my presence often doesn't obey orders. Do u understand? I see it like this: manager planned "to prove" how bad kid behaves and if I was there instead of my wife her plan would be ruined.

He does share toys with kids while on playground in local park. And even if he did not, then I am asking: is not sharing one of things creche teach children besides parents? How to behave in group, in society, how to count, to read, how to work together etc. - all these things are also taught in creche, schools etc. Am I wrong?

My wife was easy on him since he was born and I told her not to be many, many times since kid was around 6-8 months. I told her that being a bit strict does not make her a bad mother. I told her that kids do understand more, than adults can imagine, even when they just for instance 10 months. She didn't listen. As result, with her around he used to do and get what he wants. Now my wife realised that I was right and tries to be stricter, but as u can understand now it is not easy coz kid is used to get what he wants.

Yes, I know he has to learn how to obey instructions from minders and teachers, I hoped in creche eventually they will teach him. But as u know my hopes were in vain. Manager said to me one day "We'll see how it goes". I asked her how much time kid needs to settle in creche, manager said around 3-4 months, but just after TEN DAYS!!! she says this group is not for my kid.

This week we went to GP, I explained situation, he will arrange an appointment with doctor to assess my son. GP said that he does not see any sign of attention deficit. He said that my son's language skills has to be improved and he is sure they will. At the same time GP said that son has to learn how to listen instructions and how to follow them coz in school it will be more difficult.

Sorry for long post.

Big Bag of Chips

But if your son was disrupting the class everyday, then the manager was right to tell you.. everyday.

You said you did not see how he was behaving: so you have to take the manager's word that his behaviour was causing big problems in the class.

Preschools aren't really in the habit of turning kids away... They solely deal with that age group, so know generally what to expect.

You have admitted that very often your son does not do what he's told. The minders and manager have other kids to consider. Maybe they could have/should have given him more time to settle in, but they are professionally trained people who deal with children on a daily basis. They will know the difference between a child who needs time to settle in, and a child who will not settle because it's less about settling in and more about behaviour. The GP has even said he needs to learn to take instruction and obey people.

The reality is, it is a private business and if the manager feels the child is too much trouble for her staff to handle she can ask for him to be removed.

Look it is very difficult to deal with a stubborn child, but not impossible. He just needs to realise that he is not the boss! If he is not taught that this year you will have big problems next year in school.

Edit: You've admitted that sometimes the only way to get him to do what you ask is to lose your temper and shout at him... That is not an option for a preschool worker. And you probably wouldn't be too happy if you heard that is how they handled him.

S.R.

Big Bag of Chips,


But if your son was disrupting the class everyday, then the manager was right to tell you.. everyday.

And? What do u think I can do about it? I talked to friends back home and was told, that either kids are disruptive or not - minders do deal with them, without trying to force them out of creche. May be in Ireland it is different?
And do u want I give u example of "disrupting behaviour" of my son? Here: my son likes to play with planes, buses, trains. Sometimes he imitates plane, keeping his hand up in air with something in hand as if it is a plane. Manager complains to me about it. Do u think it is normal to complain about things like this?

You said you did not see how he was behaving: so you have to take the manager's word that his behaviour was causing big problems in the class.

NO, I do not want to to take manager's word because I caught her exaggerating things. One day she told me my kid grabbed one girl by throat. Yeah, I absolutely believe that my son is a maniac because manager said so. My kid never touches others in menice way. Sometimes while in playground in local park he touches other kids trying to invite them to run together, to play coz he can not express himself with words. SOMETIMES. He is almost 4 and we saw him touching others only 10-20 times max. Touches playfully, not in menice way trying to harm them, as manager tried to show it to me. I KNOW MY KID BETTER THAN MANAGER. And u can not say that he is tricking me like for example teenagers do trick their parents coz kid is too small to understand how to deceive parents by being nice when parents are near and being evil when parents can not see him. If u doubt my words, then I invite you to visit us.

You have admitted that very often your son does not do what he's told.

Yes, I did and I know often he does not.

The minders and manager have other kids to consider.

Yes, I agree, they have to.

Maybe they could have/should have given him more time to settle in, but they are professionally trained people who deal with children on a daily basis.

NO, NOT MAYBE. They should gave him more time like manager said at beginning. She herself said he will need 3-4 months to settle. And also my wife's co-worker told us about her son. In his first year in preschool he also didn't do what he was asked to do. WHOLE YEAR manager was complaining about co-worker's son. She was tired to hear complaints, but what could she do? They were complaining, but they did not tell her "this group is not for your son"! Why not? And why our manager did say these words?
Next year after summer break co-worker's son was absolutely changed! He grew up, understood more, his behaviour was changed, he settled in and complaints stopped. Do u see what I mean?
So, u r saying they are professionally trained? OK, then I have to say that u missed one of my biggest points and I have to ask u a question: IS MANAGER PROFESSIONALLY TRAINED TO MAKE THE DIAGNOSIS ABOUT MY SON??? IS she doctor or something? Who did give her right to say "he might have attention deficit disorder"??? Or who did give her right to say "i think your son has something"??? And this is when I told her that DOCTORS, WHO ALSO DEAL WITH KIDS ON DAILY BASIS, told us my son has no sign of any illness like ADD or something else. Who has more right to talk about health issues: manager with childcare certificate/diploma or doctor/pediatrist with medical diploma?
I am telling u: when manager realised that my son is more hassle that she expected, she tried to do everything to force us out of creche. And when she couldn't do it using blah-blah-blah, she just said "this group is not for your son".
Big Bag of Chips, there is good saying: it is hard to find black cat in dark room, especially when she is not in room. So, don't try to find that cat in this story. This story is more simple than u try to show it.

The GP has even said he needs to learn to take instruction and obey people.

Yes, he said. But he didn't say that my son has ADD or any other illness. He only said he is slightly behind in language skills, but eventually he will catch up.

The reality is, it is a private business and if the manager feels the child is too much trouble for her staff to handle she can ask for him to be removed.

This is most important sentence u said so far.

NO, she should not have right to ask to remove kid coz kids are not potatoes for her business! "This one I like I will keep him, this one is rotten, so I will throw it away" - do u reckon it's right?
I hope there are not many people in Ireland, who thinks like u. With attitude like yours it's not wonder that u r being ripped-off by companies like phone companies, internet providers, TV etc, it's not wonder that government, bankers, developers etc. "raped" this country, ruining what Celtic Tiger brought you! And now thousands and thousands of young men and women have already left country and many more are trying to get out!

P.S.You forgot what my post was about, taking it to different direction. I just wanted to know: 1. by law does manager have right to stop kid from attending creche?; 2. did it happen to somebody else here?; 3. and as I said, u missed my biggest point: I know kid often doesn't do what he is asked to do due to language problem and due to his character, but IT DOES NOT GIVE RIGHT TO MANAGERS/MINDERS MAKE DIAGNOSIS LIKE ADD OR ANY OTHER!

Sorry for long post.

Big Bag of Chips

If you read my other replies you will find that I did answer your questions. And I did so without being rude or insulting towards you. I'd appreciate if you could offer me the same courtesy.

No. She cannot make a diagnosis. That is why she told you to go the HSE. That is why you go to the PHN or GP. [Edit: Who can't make a diagnosis either. They would have to refer you. So the creche manager saying he MIGHT have something is no worse than the GP saying he probably doesn't. Neither are qualified to make a diagnosis. And the creche manager would see your child and his behaviour more than your GP would]

Yes. She is perfectly entitled to ask you to take your child out of her facility.

Has anything similar happened anyone? My own child caused problems in Junior Infants. I was told everyday.... What did the teacher expect me to do about it? Talk to him and stress to him that that sort of behaviour is not allowed or tolerated in school. And come up with a way of getting him to behave properly. Which I did. And he changed his behaviour in school.

You obviously don't want to believe that there is any problem, preferring instead to blame the creche for singling out your child.

Fair enough. I was just trying to help, and give you a perspective you mightn't have thought of before.. I don't know you or your child so have no 'agenda' against either of you, nor am I trying to make this more complicated than it is.

Clearly my help wasn't wanted... And you just wanted someone to tell you your son is fine and the creche are wrong.

Good luck to you.

gabsdot40

S.R. wrote: »

Sorry, what do you mean by "what are you in?" ?

Sorry, I meant what area are you in? Someone here might be able to recommend another school