University for Kilkenny

foxcoverteddy

Do I read it write that people are looking towards Kilkenny for a University of the South East? Perhaps if we start fighting it may be to our advantage, sit back and do nothing and you get nothing. Though slightly off thread I see our employee's at the council are going to ignore the protest over the CAS.
I think perhaps Crockett and co should think again before it is too late, it may be the people of Kilkenny care enough to take the protest further?
Any way Kilkenny University might be on the cards.
Educating Foxy.

emeldc

I think that story is nearly two years old already.
http://www.kilkennypeople.ie/news/kilkenny-news/university-for-kilkenny-and-the-south-east-1-3437422

S28382

If Waterford cant get it Kilkenny will never get it.

foxcoverteddy

If we can get private funding, we can do it, think positive, think what it would do for our city, come on we have only just started.

S28382

foxcoverteddy wrote: »

If we can get private funding, we can do it, think positive, think what it would do for our city, come on we have only just started.

Haha in this day and age who and why is somebody going to fund a uni for Kilkenny?


Its nothing about being positive or negative its about being realistic.

You got your Aldi you damn sure wont get your uni.

redtelephone

foxcoverteddy wrote: »

If we can get private funding, we can do it, think positive, think what it would do for our city, come on we have only just started.

The World Bank reckons it costs about 500 million dollars to set up a top class university. Their report also says its much cheaper to expand existing institutions.

http://siteresources.worldbank.org/EDUCATION/Resources/278200-1099079877269/547664-1099079956815/547670-1237305262556/WCU.pdf

It would be nice but I don't think it's realistic in any of our lifetimes.:(

road_high

The best Kilkenny can probably do is develop themes with already existing Institutions. I can see the one with NUI Maynooth finally developing into something useful as they are now starting to base part of some full time degree courses in Arts in Kilkenny. I just say let WIT and Carlow at it.

I don't see it as a huge handicap anymore. The roads network has shrunk the distance greatly to 3rd level institutions and certainly does not hugely affect the attainment of 3rd level in KK. Higher % of Kilkenny workers are employed in Professional and Managerial positions than many towns/cities with 3rd level on their doorsteps. And KK's unemployment rate is more or less bang on national average too.

Donnielighto

There is no need for a University in Kilkenny. Ireland is already overserved by third level institutions.

foxcoverteddy

Choice? Surely we can think quality education, courses not covered by other institutions, come on be positive.
You think of the colleges in the UK, so why not Kilkenny?

randylonghorn

I have already argued in another thread that a university in Kilkenny is an idea which has sailed on the tide of history, and that it is unlikely to happen now, pretty much for the reason which Donnielighto has summarised so succinctly above.

I have also suggested however that there may be opportunities to develop a couple of smaller "centres of excellence", to use the current buzzword, in areas which are a natural "fit" for Kilkenny, such as mediaeval studies and heritage management / tourism, centres which would be linked to a university or universities and which would draw students and researchers to Kilkenny both from Ireland and, certainly in the case of mediaeval studies, from the US and abroad.

I'm going to be slightly lazy and quote myself if you don't mind, rather than trying to re-phrase for the sake of it!

randylonghorn wrote: »

The brewery site might be a better venue for things like a museum etc.? ... a proper integrated museum and interpretative centre and archives and perhaps even a Centre for Medieval Studies with a third level link (or preferably links, multiple!), catering to serious students and researchers as well as to tourists and to the local community? The little Brewery Museum or Exhibition Hall or whatever they call it is already there to start from as well.

randylonghorn wrote: »

Yep, Kilkenny actually had (for a period of circa six months) what as far as I am aware would have been the second oldest university in Ireland, after Trinity. The Royal College of St. Canice's was granted a charter by James II in Feb 1690, a Rector and professors appointed, and the then vacant Kilkenny College and its endowments handed over to them. Unfortunately James was better at granting charters than at winning wars, and the Royal College foundered with him without ever enrolling a student.

The Butlers had the idea of handing over Kilkenny Castle and grounds as the site for a university at Kilkenny (before WIT or Carlow IT or any of the IOTs existed, or indeed DCU or UL, and when NUIM was still SPCM and primarily a seminary). The offer wasn't taken up; never very clear why, but I suspect nervousness in official circles at a time when money was scarce and when a far smaller proportion of the population attended university was at least a major part of it. In the end, the Castle was handed over to the city for a nominal sum, and taken into care by the OPW, and while there is no doubt that it has been a tremendous asset to the city ever since, one has to wonder what Kilkenny would be like now if the relevant people had enough courage in the 40s and 50s.

The allocation of the locations for the RTCs, now IoTs, might be seen as another lost opportunity in this respect. [Amending here, as some discussion ensued as to whether Waterford or Carlow was chosen first as an RTC location. While I had always heard the story one way, redtelephone offered some very logical suggestions as to why it was the other way round, and a couple of questions I have asked since would suggest that he has the right of it.] There are many who would argue (and many who are not from Kilkenny, and don't have a bias) that Kilkenny as a central site for the south-east would have made far more sense geographically, and that Kilkenny failed to fight its corner hard enough, a mistake definitely not made by its competitors.

Now? I don't think you need worry about a few thousand pissed-up students tbh. The move in government policy and HEA policy is towards amalgamation and rationalization. I suspect the last thing they want is another new college in Kilkenny doing the same old courses in business and engineering and splitting numbers in Waterford and Carlow and elsewhere still further, and reducing economies of scale.

That's not to say that there couldn't be opportunities in Kilkenny ... both WIT and NUIM already have outreach projects in Kilkenny, the former mainly concerned with research and the latter with teaching, mainly adult education / part-time courses but this year for the first time they are taking full-time students for first year of their arts degree as a pilot project, with students completing second and third year on the main campus in Maynooth. If you think about it, that's an opportunity for local families to make very significant savings in these recessionary times; the USI estimate that the cost of accommodation / travel etc. for a student who has to study away from home is in the order of 4 - 5,000 euro p.a.

Any move towards the establishment of a University of the South-East might also have benefits for Kilkenny; I'm sure Phil Hogan would hope so anyway, he could do with some good press!

But a new, large college or campus mirroring and repeating existing provision elsewhere? That's goes against all policy and seems unlikely.

Far better to look for opportunities to do different things, and things which build on the existing strengths of Kilkenny. To me, a Centre or Institute for Mediaeval Studies with links with universities here, in the US and on the continent might be one of those. A place where researchers, or postgraduate or even undergraduate students, might come to study for a semester or a year. Kilkenny has such a rich history and archaeology in this respect, and a surviving archaeology more importantly, and is a perfect venue for such a project.

Given that, and with the Heritage Council located here, heritage tourism and general heritage management might be another appropriate focus in Kilkenny. Traditional and modern crafts is another, and one which the Crafts Council are working hard to foster even now.

And all of these things feed into heritage tourism, which is already very important for tourism and the economy in Kilkenny and in Ireland, and I suspect will become even more important. Let's face it: Ireland isn't exactly a reliable venue for sun holidays. We need to concentrate on selling points which are uniquely ours in order to fill all those hotels built during the Diseased Celtic Tiger! :pac:

Which kinda brings us back round to our starting point, and why it's so important to be careful with all planning and development in terms of Kilkenny's historic built environment. These decisions aren't just for tomorrow or next year, they will impact for generations.

road_high wrote: »

The best Kilkenny can probably do is develop themes with already existing Institutions.

I fully agree that it would be far more strategic to concentrate on this approach.

road_high wrote: »

I can see the one with NUI Maynooth finally developing into something useful as they are now starting to base part of some full time degree courses in Arts in Kilkenny.

So putting through adult students in part-time courses, leading to something like 1,500 awards being conferred over the years ranging from Certificate level to PhD isn't useful?!

Here we would disagree; but then I would strongly espouse the idea that third-level education shouldn't just be an option at 17 / 18, and if for whatever reason you miss the boat at that age, that's it.

touts

Maybe we can get the Canadian and Australian governments to fund it. That seems to be where all Irish graduates seem to be heading these days.

foxcoverteddy

Said it before; that was some post randylonghorn, the whole of it made sense and it would be sweet if part if not all came to fruition.
We need a "University" lobby, hopefully our council would also come on board.
Thank you it was a great post.
Educating Foxy

Domain

foxcoverteddy wrote: »

Do I read it write that people are looking towards Kilkenny for a University of the South East? Perhaps if we start fighting it may be to our advantage, sit back and do nothing and you get nothing. Though slightly off thread I see our employee's at the council are going to ignore the protest over the CAS.
I think perhaps Crockett and co should think again before it is too late, it may be the people of Kilkenny care enough to take the protest further?
Any way Kilkenny University might be on the cards.
Educating Foxy.

You're the person who keeps private messaging me, get a life please!

foxcoverteddy

Education is wealth. Foxy

foxcoverteddy

To Domain I hope your message is not meant for me,. I have no interest in sending you private messages, in fact no interest in your thread whatsoever.
Suggest you apologise to the Mods.

ByronB

Domain wrote: »

You're the person who keeps private messaging me, get a life please!

I am gettin PM's from this one too, about KK and that, who the hell is she??

foxcoverteddy

Suggest you contact the mods immediately, again if the inference is me you are wrong not my MO, so whoever is sending PM's I would ask you to please stop as I do not take kindly to any suggestion they come from me.

The Hill Billy

Folks - If you are receiving unsolicited/problematic PMs - please use the Report PM function & an Admin will look into it for you.

tHB

foxcoverteddy

Thanks, appreciated

JohnMc1

S28382 wrote: »

If Waterford cant get it Kilkenny will never get it.

In fairness Waterford has WIT. We don't have any third level Institution like that.

S28382

JohnMc1 wrote: »

In fairness Waterford has WIT. We don't have any third level Institution like that.

It would be madness to give Kilkenny any third level institution as Dublin is an hour away, Waterford 25 mins, Carlow 20 mins.

linny

S28382 wrote: »

It would be madness to give Kilkenny any third level institution as Dublin is an hour away, Waterford 25 mins, Carlow 20 mins.

I have a heavy foot but Carlow is at least 25 mins and few times I have been to Waterford its at least 40 mins to both ITs

S28382

linny wrote: »

I have a heavy foot but Carlow is at least 25 mins and few times I have been to Waterford its at least 40 mins to both ITs

I travel to Waterford every day and its 25mins, 30mins from my house (Callan Road) to WIT. I have travelled to Carlow a few times and got from my house to the Fairgreen shopping centre in 20mins.

odin_ie

Looking at the Brewery/Abbey Quarter development, there seems to be the idea that there will be some element of third level education happening in Kilkenny. For Kilkenny, I think having a third level campus, even if only for a small number of students would bring a great vibe and fantastic opportunities to the place.

Cloud computing and big data are the buzz words at the moment, and when I see places like Ballincollig in Cork having two very big companies (under EMC) operating out there, and the benefit it brings, I question how Kilkenny is missing out on this kind of industry. I think having a focused third level campus that targets and researches IT, and also taps into Kilkennys Arts and historical heritage would be a fantastic idea that would have fantastic job creation potential.

road_high

linny wrote: »

I have a heavy foot but Carlow is at least 25 mins and few times I have been to Waterford its at least 40 mins to both ITs

Carlow is 25 mins to the IT (it's handy off the motorway), but WIT definitely further way especially if you go in through Waterford and the quays.
My understanding is this is not a stand alone facility so it's not as if "Kilkenny is getting a university", that would be stretching it a bit.

Rightwing

This is crazy talk. Half or the ITs should be closed down, a complete waste of money. And out pops a few education do-gooders, who are probably on €150K.

touts

Are the people of Kilkenny really disadvantaged at having to travel a full 40 minutes to WIT or 25 minutes to CIT? If you lived in Dublin you would spend longer than that getting to college on the bus.

It seems Universities are the new motorways. Everyone wants one in their town or village.

Rightwing

touts wrote: »

Are the people of Kilkenny really disadvantaged at having to travel a full 40 minutes to WIT or 25 minutes to CIT? If you lived in Dublin you would spend longer than that getting to college on the bus.

It seems Universities are the new motorways. Everyone wants one in their town or village.

Indeed, the future of education is online, it's about time some of these underachieving institutions were smashed, let alone get another up an running.

TaosHum

Considering Carlow IT and Waterford IT plan on merging to become a technological university, the chances of Kilkenny getting a stand alone University are pretty much zero.

Best Kilkenny can hope for is to have a campus that's apart of the Carlow Waterford University.

odin_ie

I'm not suggesting a new institution, I am suggesting a campus of the new Technical University of the South East, which appears to be a multi campus institution, if Kilkenny can carve out a niche market in a particular industry or two and gets 1000 students through say two 4 year programs, with optional masters, it would do wonders for the local economy. This wouldn't be Kilkenny University by a long shot.

Doylers

Why give a town a uni? Not enough people in Kilkenny to support one. Waterford is more than close enough and there struggling enough to get a uni.

odin_ie

Refer to http://9thlevel.ie/party-positions/technological-universities/

rayc

I take it most of this is referring to some discussions going on about setting up a research centre in the proposed development in the old smithwicks brewery site. I don't think anyone in their right mind is considering a kilkenny university, rather a campus of the new tech university in kilkenny. WIT already have research offices (TSSG) in kilkenny for the last 18 months in St Kierans which is in partnership with IT Carlow. Any realistic discussion will be about some expansion of this.

Rightwing

What's the population of KK ?

road_high

Rightwing wrote: »

What's the population of KK ?

c25,000. Bigger than Sligo, Carlow, Tralee, Letterkenny, all with IT colleges for years.

road_high

rayc wrote: »

I take it most of this is referring to some discussions going on about setting up a research centre in the proposed development in the old smithwicks brewery site. I don't think anyone in their right mind is considering a kilkenny university, rather a campus of the new tech university in kilkenny. WIT already have research offices (TSSG) in kilkenny for the last 18 months in St Kierans which is in partnership with IT Carlow. Any realistic discussion will be about some expansion of this.

Exactly. There's not going to be "new" institute or administration. Merely a branch of existing like NUI Maynooth or WIT. Who in their right mind wopuld oppose such a development for Kilkenny....

road_high

Doylers wrote: »

Why give a town a uni? Not enough people in Kilkenny to support one. Waterford is more than close enough and there struggling enough to get a uni.

What a ridiculous statement. Maybe you should go tell the same to Carlow, Athlone, Sligo and Letterkenny. All smaller than Kilkenny. They're clearly "too small" as well to have colleges?

S28382

road_high wrote: »

Exactly. There's not going to be "new" institute or administration. Merely a branch of existing like NUI Maynooth or WIT. Who in their right mind wopuld oppose such a development for Kilkenny....

I dont think anyone would oppose some sort of branch from one of the other ITs or Unis but the suggestion from Foxy about Kilkenny getting a Uni is a dream that wont ever come to fruition.

road_high

odin_ie wrote: »

I'm not suggesting a new institution, I am suggesting a campus of the new Technical University of the South East, which appears to be a multi campus institution, if Kilkenny can carve out a niche market in a particular industry or two and gets 1000 students through say two 4 year programs, with optional masters, it would do wonders for the local economy. This wouldn't be Kilkenny University by a long shot.

Exactly. The thread title is completely misleading here. Third level education has moved on from county colours type institutes long ago.
What i read is a research and innovation type campus. Not "Kilkenny University". I don't know how anybody reading about the Abbey Quarter could take that from what is being planned.

Rightwing

road_high wrote: »

c25,000. Bigger than Sligo, Carlow, Tralee, Letterkenny, all with IT colleges for years.

There's too many of these ITs and too many 3rd level in Dublin. Maybe KK being close to Waterford hasn't helped it, a bit like Ennis being close to Limk.

road_high

Rightwing wrote: »

There's too many of these ITs and too many 3rd level in Dublin. Maybe KK being close to Waterford hasn't helped it, a bit like Ennis being close to Limk.

There are too many. Let's face it's a bit of a gravy train and jobs for the academic community on many levels.
But the Kilkenny development is not a new IT or Uni, merely a cooperation of what we already have, i.e existing IT's. Its not "another IT"

Captain Havoc

I went to college in Shannon which is a very small town. The college itself is very small and it's a recognised NUI college.