Waterford War Memorial Dungarvan

Max Powers

I think this is a great thing, fair play to Dungarvan all who organised, funded it etc. I read in munster express that Deasy was involved so fair play to him too. I think things like this are good for us as a nation. some republican nutters would possibly come out as against this due to these 'kids' wearing British uniforms when they died, times have changed and we should all recognize that they volunteered for different reasons, not because they were traitors, but more like heroes. I look forward to seeing it next time im out in Dungarvan.

( i would classify myself as a republican, just not a Celtic jersey wearing, daily mirror carrying xenophobic one)

babaracus

Yes these people should be remembered and I have no objection to a memorial to them but they did not die for some noble cause or sacrifice, as you make out by calling them "heroes". They died in the pits of hell to satisfy the blood lust of the great empires of Europe at that time. It was a totally unnecessary war which, through revisionism, has been made out to be some form of noble sacrifice. It was not. They died in vain, not as heroes but as cannon and machine gun fodder. For nothing.

Does that mean there should not be a memorial. No. But it should have an inscription on it saying they died for nothing. And that is the saddest part.

Max Powers

babaracus wrote: »

Yes these people should be remembered and I have no objection to a memorial to them but they did not die for some noble cause or sacrifice, as you make out by calling them "heroes". They died in the pits of hell to satisfy the blood lust of the great empires of Europe at that time. It was a totally unnecessary war which, through revisionism, has been made out to be some form of noble sacrifice. It was not. They died in vain, not as heroes but as cannon and machine gun fodder. For nothing.

Does that mean there should not be a memorial. No. But it should have an inscription on it saying they died for nothing. And that is the saddest part.

a lot of what you say is true and could basically apply to every major war. I like to think of soldiers who fought/died fighting the likes of larger countries who try to bully smaller one, heroes.

comeraghs

Today's Irish Times.


http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/heritage/remembering-the-war-dead-1.1546478

comeraghs

Jimmy Drummey slipped quietly from his home in the Waterford village of Abbeyside on a spring morning in 1907. He was 17 years of age. Jimmy told nobody where he was going and his family never heard from him again. Ten years later, in October 1917, the local RIC sergeant called to the family home. He told Jimmy’s sister Alice that her youngest brother had been killed “fighting with the British army in the war”.
Jimmy was my grand uncle and Alice was my grandmother.
I knew everything about my grandmother but I never heard of Jimmy until 70 years after he died. Like many others who died in that war “fighting with the British” Jimmy Drummey was mourned quietly, remembered fondly but not talked about very much. The irony in Jimmy’s case was that while he did indeed die in the first World War, it was not with the British army. Jimmy served with the New Zealand Expeditionary Force – something I discovered in 1989 not too long after I found out about Jimmy in the first place.
My mother kept family heirlooms in a “box under the bed” and in the late 1980s I came across a War Service medal which I was very curious about but which my mother didn’t want to talk about. Eventually she told me that the medal was “Uncle Jimmy’s”, that he had run away to sea, joined the British army, died in the war and that they didn’t talk about him very much. Nobody knew exactly where he had died and nobody knew where he was buried.
I wrote to the British War Graves Commission. They told me that the serial number on the medal showed that Jimmy had enlisted with the New Zealand Expeditionary Force and was never in the British army. This information astounded my mother – not least the fact that in running away to sea, Jimmy had managed to get all the way to New Zealand – “the same fella couldn’t find his way home from Mass”!
My inquiry to the ministry of defence in Wellington yielded more information. Private James Drummey enlisted in the Auckland Infantry, 23rd Reinforcements, New Zealand Expeditionary Force in November 1916. He had been a second officer on the schooner Huia. He was five feet six inches, weighed 11 stone and had a fair complexion, blue eyes and brown hair. He was 27 years of age and single. We got a photograph of Jimmy – the only one the family has.
Jimmy embarked for England in March 1917, left for France in June of that year and joined the 1st Battalion Auckland Regiment in the field in July 1917. At the end of that month he was injured while evacuating casualties and after hospital treatment rejoined his unit on August 11th. Just two months later, on October 4th, 1917 he was killed in action in the 3rd Battle of Ypres.
According to the war records Jimmy had no known grave but was commemorated on the memorial wall at Tyne Cot Cemetery near Ypres.
In 1989 I decided to visit.
Tyne Cot is the biggest military cemetery on the continent and for many people the most poignant. There are 11,956 soldiers buried there and the names of a further 34,957 soldiers with no known graves are engraved on the great memorial wall. The wall wraps itself around the graves and a stone altar bearing Kipling’s words “Their name liveth for ever more”.
I found Jimmy Drummey’s name among the others, said a prayer, remembered our family to him and laid a small bunch of flowers on the plinth. Just yards away a tiny Belgian lady was placing a single rose on a grave and silently crying, 70 years on.
It was October 15th, 1989 and it was my grand uncle Jimmy’s 100th birthday.
On Sunday October 6th, in Jimmy’s hometown, I will remember him again. Beside the ancient castle in Dungarvan, and facing across the harbour to the village that Jimmy slipped out of that spring morning back in 1907, the Waterford Memorial will be unveiled. It lists the names of all the men and women of Waterford who lost their lives in the first World War. Standing proudly in the Abbeyside section will be the name of Jimmy Drummey. He will not be alone. Jimmy will be in honoured company with several others from his own village and with the 1,100 from all over Waterford who died in that war.
For far too long we “didn’t talk about them very much”. On Sunday we will. Not before time.

Snickers Man

Max Powers wrote: »

I like to think of soldiers who fought/died fighting the likes of larger countries who try to bully smaller one, heroes.

Careful where you go with that one. A lot of Waterford soldiers might not come too well out of it.

The county regiment for Waterford at the time of the First World War was the Royal Irish Regiment. Like all Irish infantry regiments it had two regular battalions, ie battalions that were in permanent existence before the outbreak of the war.

And what were the two regular battalions of the Royal Irish Regiment doing at the outbreak of war? Like all Irish regiments one was on garrison duty at home and another was out in the colonies. The 1st Battalion Royal Irish were stationed in India in 1914. Keeping the natives in check.

Who were the bullies and who were the bullied there?

Max Powers

Snickers Man wrote: »

Careful where you go with that one. A lot of Waterford soldiers might not come too well out of it.

The county regiment for Waterford at the time of the First World War was the Royal Irish Regiment. Like all Irish infantry regiments it had two regular battalions, ie battalions that were in permanent existence before the outbreak of the war.

And what were the two regular battalions of the Royal Irish Regiment doing at the outbreak of war? Like all Irish regiments one was on garrison duty at home and another was out in the colonies. The 1st Battalion Royal Irish were stationed in India in 1914. Keeping the natives in check.

Who were the bullies and who were the bullied there?

its a good point but i was on about WW1 soldiers, not people who went to other places and ended up helping suppress other nations, different issue and not part of this memorial

thetoffeeman

I was there today, and the most striking thing there were the wreaths of paper poppies. Haven't we come a long way in the past 20 years. Theres not a traitor among the names on the memorial, and shame on those of us who named them as such.

drumaneen

We have come a long way and, it's probably fair comment to say, not before time. A nation should always remember its fallen sons. For these British and Commonwealth soldiers the red Flanders Poppy is the correct symbol but if this is too much you one check out this Irish Remembrance pin. See us here www.rbl-limerick.webs.com/

revisionist

On Sunday October 6th, in Jimmy’s hometown, I will remember him again. Beside the ancient castle in Dungarvan, and facing across the harbour to the village that Jimmy slipped out of that spring morning back in 1907, the Waterford Memorial will be unveiled. It lists the names of all the men and women of Waterford who lost their lives in the first World War. Standing proudly in the Abbeyside section will be the name of Jimmy Drummey. He will not be alone. Jimmy will be in honoured company with several others from his own village and with the 1,100 from all over Waterford who died in that war.
For far too long we “didn’t talk about them very much”. On Sunday we will. Not before time.

I am also from Abbeyside and lost 2 Granduncles in the slaughter of WW1. I have travelled several times to Flanders in order to silently stand at the grave of one and remember him. My other Granduncle Michael Organ was drowned off the coast of Algeria when his ship the SS Dowlais was sunk by a German U-Boat.He would have been a close neighbour obviously of Jimmy Drummey and he died with a close friend John Power of Home Rule St. However I had and still have deep reservations about this war memorial. Its situation under the walls of the castle in Dungarvan, a symbol of British rule in this country will forever tie the memory of these unfortunate souls to the memory of the almost invariably heinous British occupation of this country.I also object to the manner the monument was advanced by the individuals who were behind it. There was no public meeting but an ad hoc committee was set up and no input was allowed.Meetings were held in secret and when I enquired who was on this committee I was met with blank looks and a veil of secrecy.The dimensions of the monument are ,frankly,huge and totally out of kilter with what should have been a dignified and understated edifice. Furthermore who gave the committee ownership of the names of these men ,some of whom died in appalling circumstances. The expenditure of public monies on this sole project in a town where we do not have a monument of any significant magnitude to remember the thousands in this county who died in the Great Famine. We have no monument to the men of the flying column or those who died in the civil war. The abiding memory I have is of the monument unveiling itself when the great and good of the town and country sat at the front while a number of relatives had to stand at the back. Rank prevailed.The fact is that those who returned from the war did not want to remember it in any way ,harbouring a deep resentment and hate for the British who led so many of their friends and colleagues to horrible deaths through rank incompetence at best or callous indifference at worst. I will always treasure the memory of my Granduncles Will and Michael , I do not subscribe to the Pop history that inspires the interest in this monument. To quote Sassoon :now smug faced crowd with kindling eye , who loudly cheer when soldier boys pass by, sneak home and pray you will never know the place where youth and laughter go.;

Smiley Burnett

In other words, you are totally opposed to the erection of this monument (no matter what the size) and your post is full of inaccuracies and assumptions. It was great to see so many family members of those who died show their appreciation to the committee on the day of the unveiling. In fact the wall was unveiled by two young relatives of a soldier who died.The monument is a fitting tribute to the men and women who died and the public reaction to it reflects the support that is there for it. It's great to see that there are no military or ceremonial symbols on the wall and that the committee took this approach to it. Neither does rank come into it---the monument contains just the names of those who died and where they came from. This makes it very powerful in its own way. It was great to see people OF ALL POLITICAL BACKROUNDS come together to remember their relatives who perished. It's not before time either and instead of bemoaning the fact there is no monument to "the men of the flying column or those who died in the civil war", go out and set up a committee and do something about it!! The reality is it sickens only a tiny narrow-minded minority that these people are being rightly remembered. Fair dues to the people involved for finally doing the right thing by those who died and who were deliberately written out of our history by people who had a very narrow view of what it was, and is, to be IRISH and REPUBLICAN.

revisionist

In your response you point out that I have made assumptions and that my post is full of inaccuracies. Can you please detail these ? No doubt when you penned your reply you let your heart rule your head. I trust that you will retract your accusation that I am totally against the monument. I am merely against the size, design, origin and location of it "The dimensions of the monument are ,frankly,huge and totally out of kilter with what should have been a dignified and understated edifice" . Also who deliberately wrote these men out of our history? Up to the early 1930*s there was a British Legion in the town who marched each year on rememberance Sunday. There was a monument erected in Dublin by the Irish government to commemorate those who died prior to one for the men of 1916. The Irish Free State government put up in 1926 the equivalent of 2000,000 euros in todays money for the provision of a monument for these men. These are all indisputable facts, no one wrote them out of our history . This assertion by you is at best stupid,at worst ,malicious. In terms of your reference to rank I was ,of course, referring to the dignitaries (sic) present who parked their comfortable posteriors at the front while the relatives stood at the back.Ironically unlike the British generals who adopted a rear position while the flower of our youth was being slaughtered . My final request of you is that you actually read this post before answering it rather than adopting a populist approach and villifying a dissenting voice .

Smiley Burnett

just to outline some of your inaccuracies

1---"There was no public meeting but an ad hoc committee was set up and no input was allowed. Meetings were held in secret and when I enquired who was on this committee I was met with blank looks and a veil of secrecy"---NOT TRUE...the notion of erecting a memorial was advanced publicly (and not in secret etc)....membership of committee was in public domain...in fact the committee issued press releases/addressed town council meetings/gave radio interviews....it was well-known who served on this committee (in fact, some of the members have a fantastic record in preserving our history and heritage through their work with the museum society)

2---"The abiding memory I have is of the monument unveiling itself when the great and good of the town and country sat at the front while a number of relatives had to stand at the back. Rank prevailed."---NOT TRUE...a seated area was in place to the side of the monument for invited guests etc and the families and members of the public gathered DIRECTLY IN FRONT of the monument and had unobstructed views and had in fact a better view of the proceedings than anyone else ....(the opening ceremony in fact had no speeches either from any local dignitaries etc .The focus was very firmly placed on the families and those who died)...if you were there, maybe you wouldn't have such an inaccurate view of what ACTUALLY happened...Members and officers of Óglaigh na hÉireann were also present and in fact were in charge of and responsible for the ceremonial aspect of the ceremony

3--"Furthermore who gave the committee ownership of the names of these men ,some of whom died in appalling circumstances"---The overwhelming majority of those who died are recorded [if memory serves me correctly, I think there are 3 names from a total in excess of 11,00 withheld following a request from a family member]...once the idea of erecting a monument became public knowledge, the overwhelming response and feedback was positive...in fact when one local councillor stated that, in many cases families wouldn't want their ancestors named recorded in such a fashion, the committee was inundated with calls to distance themselves from those remarks and to indicate that they were happy to see these people finally being remembered in their own county!

revisionist

Obviously you again ignore the facts. Your response actually leads me to believe that you have a lot more to do with the monument than you led,initially,to believe. Oglaigh na h-Eireann organised it ..so what? Does this make my sentiment any less valid? Also I never mentioned speeches etc. The committee was a secretive one with no public notice of meetings etc. The unveiling was a hastily organised one further smacking of clandestine organisation. Why not wait until today to unveil it on a relevant date? Again you fail to acknowledge that I raised no objection to the monument per se. There was absolutely and categorically no public meeting to discuss the plans,invite input, canvass opinion or seek any input from the people who mattered. When the local Sinn Fein member raised questions he was villified and ridiculed by those behind the monument. The people who have been the driving force behind it know well who I am.However they were reluctant to debate the issue in the face of superior logic. They were also aware of my deep interest in the whole issue of Irish history from 1912 to 1923. My opinion is that Albert Speer would not have designed such a monstrosity in pre-war Germany. The opportunity was missed for a simple edifice to commemorate those who died.The fact that 3 names do not appear on it renders it incomplete. It should have been all names or no name. It does little credit that an incomplete list is on the monument. Incidentally both my Granduncles are on the monument. You can remember them without putting their names on a monument . At least without the absolute knowledge that they would have wanted to be remembered in this way.This ,of course, was impossible so they should have erred on the side of discretion. I have granted you certain leeway in that you probably have not thought about this too much ,and your knowledge is rather shallow regarding the whole complex issue .Also you encouraged me earlier to go and get my own monument for the flying column etc. This should not be the method to establish any form of rememberance. It should be done through public consultation, a transparent process , out in the open ,totally unlike how this process occurred.

Smiley Burnett

1--"The unveiling was a hastily organised one further smacking of clandestine organisation"--a laughable assertion from you, especially when you consider the amount of detail involved in the unveiling and the number of people involved in making the unveiling happen
2--"When the local Sinn Fein member raised questions he was villified and ridiculed by those behind the monument"--simply not true...any examples of where and when this happened??
3--"However they were reluctant to debate the issue in the face of superior logic"---this definitely made me smile!!
4--"I have granted you certain leeway in that you probably have not thought about this too much ,and your knowledge is rather shallow regarding the whole complex issue"---- this actually made me burst out laughing!!

Poor Uncle Tom

Article about it just coming on Nationwide now.

revisionist

You can contact Brendan Mansfield through Waterford County Council in order to verify this. As for the rest you again indulge in assumption while I know the truth...

Smiley Burnett

wonderful piece on Nationwide this evening

MarkK

revisionist wrote: »

... a town where...

It's a memorial for the county, not for the town.

revisionist wrote: »

... we do not have a monument of any significant magnitude to remember the thousands in this county who died in the Great Famine. We have no monument to the men of the flying column or those who died in the civil war.

We do have memorials in the form of graves, the bodies of the WW1 victims were not brought home.

revisionist wrote: »

The fact is that those who returned from the war did not want to remember it in any way ,harbouring a deep resentment and hate for the British who led so many of their friends and colleagues to horrible deaths through rank incompetence at best or callous indifference at worst.

So everyone who returned from the war had exactly the same opinion?
Those who returned are presumably not listed on the monument so I don't see the relevance of your point anyway,

revisionist wrote: »

You can contact Brendan Mansfield through Waterford County Council in order to verify this.

A politician's claims aren't evidence of anything.

revisionist

So everyone who returned from the war had exactly the same opinion?

It is absolutely logical to assume this given the fact that it took almost 100 years before a memorial was erected. The historical fact is that the first generation including those who came home chose to ignore it and never talk about their experience, the next generation forgot about the dead , a theme recurrent on the lips of every member of the current generation who visited the memorial and were asked about it. Do you think there was some insidious force suppressing the memory of these men? In the case of Brendan Mansfield the reference was to a previous post questioning my assertion that a local council member was villified due to his resistance to the nature of the memorial. It would be wise to read the post thoroughly first.Regarding the men of the Flying Column, the Ballykinlar internees, the dead of the War Of Independence and the Civil War , it is somewhat ridiculous to assert that their graves are monuments. Their graves are their resting places and are no tribute to their efforts. The men of WW1 or a significant portion of them have graves in Belgium and France and as far away as Iraq,Egypt and East Africa. I wonder how many of the people who cribbed about them being written from history bothered to go and visit the graves of the fallen? I have been to Flanders and to France to pay tr

revisionist

tribute

revisionist

sorry post interrupted but to continue...I have been to Flanders and to France to pay tribute to my Granduncles. My position on this monument is clear from day one , it was funded by public money ,it should have had public input.There were no public meetings ,this was confirmed to me by a member of the committee(sic) . 3 families to my knowledge declined to have their relatives name on the monument , my opinion all names or no names...no middle ground. The monument is a, garish monstrosity which grossly overstates the reason for its presence. Have you been to Flanders Mark ?The monuments there are perfect in their simplicity.

Captain Havoc

Speculation to the identity of members is forbidden.

revisionist

Point taken but the speculation was in relation to the position of the poster rather than his identity..

MarkK

revisionist wrote: »

Do you think there was some insidious force suppressing the memory of these men?

You are the one claiming to know what every one of them thought!

revisionist wrote: »

In the case of Brendan Mansfield the reference was to a previous post questioning my assertion that a local council member was villified due to his resistance to the nature of the memorial. It would be wise to read the post thoroughly first.

How much more "thoroughly" can one read a one line post, which had no reference or quote indicating what it is a response to?
Unfortunately I don't have your power to read minds.

revisionist wrote: »

"it is somewhat ridiculous to assert that their graves are monuments."

Unless of course you are familiar with the English language.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/monument
"2. An inscribed marker placed at a grave; a tombstone."

revisionist wrote: »

Have you been to Flanders Mark ?The monuments there are perfect in their simplicity.

I have been to Flanders.

What would be the perfect location and format for the Waterford monument?

revisionist

MarkK wrote: »

You are the one claiming to know what every one of them thought!


How much more "thoroughly" can one read a one line post, which had no reference or quote indicating what it is a response to?
Unfortunately I don't have your power to read minds.


Unless of course you are familiar with the English language.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/monument
"2. An inscribed marker placed at a grave; a tombstone."

I have been to Flanders.

What would be the perfect location and format for the Waterford monument?

Again you have just taken what I have said out of context. As with a lot of words there are different contexts they can be taken in. I notice you took one line in isolation and failed to mention the following sentence which qualified my remark..As for knowing what every one of them thought ,my point precisely is the opposite . Nobody can speak for all of them and my point merely reiterated anecdotal family evidence. This was from my Grandfather who served the entirety of the war from August 1914 to the end in November 1918. The absolute ignorance of people like you and your ilk who consistently berate the dissenter astonishes me. And if you did read my posts you would know that I am not opposed to a monument but the nature and size of it. Any future monument without the benefit of extremely generous government funding,as this was, will pale in stature and significance to this monstrosity.
The monument should have been in Walton Park ( fitting ,given the slaughter his scientific prowess pre-empted) and a smaller version without the names. A celtic cross would have been fitting ....