Is a landlord allowed retain copies of keys?

Victor

Thread split from Locks changed without my knowledge or permission

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fl4pj4ck

As far as I know (and correct me if I'm wrong), landlord doesn't have the right to keep a key to the property. He also doesn't have the right to enter it, unless agreed with the tenant.

Althought the links below doesn't specifically say whether LL is allowed to keep the keys or not, from my own experience (having a LL entering the property unanonced in the past) that's what Threshold folks told me

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/landlords_rights_and_obligations.html
http://www.threshold.ie/advice/tenancy-issues/entry-without-permission/

Unless there is an agreement to the contrary or it is an emergency, a landlord should not call to the property unannounced or enter the property without your permission.

D3PO

fl4pj4ck wrote: »

As far as I know (and correct me if I'm wrong), landlord doesn't have the right to keep a key to the property. He also doesn't have the right to enter it, unless agreed with the tenant.

Althought the links below doesn't specifically say whether LL is allowed to keep the keys or not, from my own experience (having a LL entering the property unanonced in the past) that's what Threshold folks told me

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/landlords_rights_and_obligations.html
http://www.threshold.ie/advice/tenancy-issues/entry-without-permission/

the landlord absolutely has the right to a key to his property !!

Furthermore the tenant has no rights to change the locks or modify the property in anyway without permission to do so. So the landlord will be entitled to deduct from the deposit any costs incurred to put the property back to the way it was.

you are correct however the landlord may not enter the property without permission from the tenant unless it is an emergency, flooding, gas leak etc

fl4pj4ck

the landlord absolutely has the right to a key to his property !!

I'd love to see a definitive piece of legislation to confirm that, I'm only sharing what I've been told myself.

D3PO

fl4pj4ck wrote: »

I'd love to see a definitive piece of legislation to confirm that, I'm only sharing what I've been told myself.

you wont find legislative wording to that effect.

what you will see if that the tenant is not entitled to modify the property without permission. Now given that the LL will have a spare key to his property and the locks cannot be changed without permission defacto the LL is entitled to a key to his property

fl4pj4ck

Now given that the LL will have a spare key to his property

this is the bit I'm talking about. according to Threshold neither LL or the Agency acting on their behalf can keep a spare key. I'll shoot them an email about that, will report back.

D3PO

fl4pj4ck wrote: »

this is the bit I'm talking about. according to Threshold neither LL or the Agency acting on their behalf can keep a spare key. I'll shoot them an email about that, will report back.

To be honest with you if you rely on what Threshold have to say then half of what you will know about renting will be wrong.

fl4pj4ck

Well that's a bold statement I must say. Any chance you can confirm what you say?

D3PO

fl4pj4ck wrote: »

Well that's a bold statement I must say. Any chance you can confirm what you say?

Its not really a bold statement at all. Search threads on this forum. There are dozens of them were the person in Threshold has given out the wrong advise to posters here.

Its outrageous but a fact.

fl4pj4ck

I took my time and backed up some of the fact with links for you to review. I don't understand why should I now take your word for granted and look up somewhere to confirm anything.
So unless you can back it up somehow I don't think of this as a "fact", at this time is pure speculation.

whippet

fl4pj4ck wrote: »

I'd love to see a definitive piece of legislation to confirm that, I'm only sharing what I've been told myself.

It doesn't need legislation to determine that the owner of a property is entitled to a key to said property.

fl4pj4ck

According to the links I posted earlier, you have a right to entry when there's an emergency, it doesn't explicitly say you're entitled to keep a key.

djimi

fl4pj4ck wrote: »

this is the bit I'm talking about. according to Threshold neither LL or the Agency acting on their behalf can keep a spare key. I'll shoot them an email about that, will report back.

The landlord is legally entitled to enter the property unannounced in case of an emergency (a reported water leak, gas leak etc). Im not aware of anything in law that states that a landlord is not permitted to hold a key to the property, but if you post something that says otherwise then Im happy to be proven wrong.

As for Threshold, I dont have a lot of confidence in what they say a lot of time, having been told things by them that are questionable at best, or having had conversations with them where they dont seem to know a lot of the basics. They love to use the phrase "in our opinion..." a lot of noticed, which doesnt exactly inspire confidence!

fl4pj4ck

whippet wrote: »

It doesn't need legislation to determine that the owner of a property is entitled to a key to said property.

You forgot about the fact that a leased house becomes a home to the tenant.

djimi

fl4pj4ck wrote: »

You forgot about the fact that a leased house becomes a home to the tenant.

It becomes the home of the tenant (hence the law that the landlord cannot enter unannounced) but it never becomes their property. I doubt very much that any law exists that states that a property owner is not allowed to retain a key to their own property.

fl4pj4ck

djimi wrote: »

The landlord is legally entitled to enter the property unannounced in case of an emergency (a reported water leak, gas leak etc). Im not aware of anything in law that states that a landlord is not permitted to hold a key to the property, but if you post something that says otherwise then Im happy to be proven wrong.

As for Threshold, I dont have a lot of confidence in what they say a lot of time, having been told things by them that are questionable at best, or having had conversations with them where they dont seem to know a lot of the basics. They love to use the phrase "in our opinion..." a lot of noticed, which doesnt exactly inspire confidence!

To enter unannounced - yes. Gardai and other emergency services has the same right to enter unannounced yet that doesn't imply they need a key to the property.
Just saying...
I know it sounds reasonable, but that doesn't mean it's the law.

Zillah

fl4pj4ck wrote: »

Well that's a bold statement I must say. Any chance you can confirm what you say?

If you think about it, it would be utterly ludicrous for the landlord to be forbidden from keeping a spare key to their own property. There are rules guaranteeing the tenant's exclusive and private use of the property in place, but the landlord is allowed access under specific circumstances, most normally to examine the property at a mutually agreed time (which does not have to be when the tenant is present).

If you were told that the landlord has to give up all copies of the keys for a property that they own to every tenant then you've been misled.

drumswan

fl4pj4ck wrote: »

You forgot about the fact that a leased house becomes a home to the tenant.

Whats that got to do with it?

The landlord holds a key before the tenant moves in, if he is specifically required to destroy it surely this is mentioned in legislation somewhere?

fl4pj4ck

Who say anything about destroying the key?

drumswan

fl4pj4ck wrote: »

Who say anything about destroying the key?

Enlighten us. Whats he supposed to do with the key? How could you possibly verify what he does with the key?

fl4pj4ck

Zillah wrote: »

If you think about it, it would be utterly ludicrous for the landlord to be forbidden from keeping a spare key to their own property. There are rules guaranteeing the tenant's exclusive and private use of the property in place, but the landlord is allowed access under specific circumstances, most normally to examine the property at a mutually agreed time (which does not have to be when the tenant is present).

If you were told that the landlord has to give up all copies of the keys for a property that they own to every tenant then you've been misled.

But of course it would! And there is ludicrous legislation I know of. So unless someone comes back with a definitive confirmation I don't see how are any of us in wrong discussing it.

fl4pj4ck

drumswan wrote: »

Enlighten us. Whats he supposed to do with the key? How could you possibly verify what he does with the key?

I don't know, maybe give it to the tenant. That actually makes sense, doesn't it?

djimi

fl4pj4ck wrote: »

To enter unannounced - yes. Gardai and other emergency services has the same right to enter unannounced yet that doesn't imply they need a key to the property.
Just saying...
I know it sounds reasonable, but that doesn't mean it's the law.

Youre going to have to back this arguement up with some kind of proof if youre going to convince Im afraid! I think you have gotten the wrong end of the stick regarding this, but as I said Im happy to be proven wrong.

drumswan

fl4pj4ck wrote: »

I don't know, maybe give it to the tenant. That actually makes sense, doesn't it?

No it doesnt. What happens if the tenant dies, or leaves the country? Think about what you are saying.

fl4pj4ck

I might, but for you to convince me you will need to prove your version is correct.

fl4pj4ck

drumswan wrote: »

No it doesnt. What happens if the tenant dies, or leaves the country? Think about what you are saying.

I think this constitutes as "emergency" in my dictionary.

(got to go guys, be back later)

djimi

fl4pj4ck wrote: »

I might, but for you to convince me you will need to prove your version is correct.

You made the initial statement; its up to you to back up your claim

RangeR

fl4pj4ck wrote: »

I might, but for you to convince me you will need to prove your version is correct.

Out of curiosity, can you prove your version of the law?

drumswan

fl4pj4ck wrote: »

I think this constitutes as "emergency" in my dictionary.

(got to go guys, be back later)

But the landlord hasnt got a key now, how does he enter in an emergency where the tenant cant open the door.........

Zillah

fl4pj4ck wrote: »

But of course it would! And there is ludicrous legislation I know of. So unless someone comes back with a definitive confirmation I don't see how are any of us in wrong discussing it.

Everything is allowed unless legislation forbids it. You're the one making the ridiculous assertion that a landlord is not allowed to keep a key to the property that they own, the burden of proof is on you to show where that is forbidden in law.

You won't find it, though, because it doesn't exist, because it's an idiotic notion based on nothing, and for some reason you expect us to prove it to you. It doesn't make sense from a practical point of view, it doesn't fit with the spirit of tenancy legislation, it would be completely redundant considering that the tenant's rights are protected in other ways anyway, and it conflicts with everyone's experience of renting where the landlord always has their own key to their property. You're incredibly wrong and everyone sees it except you.

kingtiger

yep Ziilah bang on the money there

as I said earlier its in the lease agreement that the tenant signed

that they cannot alter any locks with landlord consent

an how am I meant to exact emergency repair if I don't have a key?

so if the tenant has broken the lease agreement can I evict them for this?

whippet

fl4pj4ck wrote: »

You forgot about the fact that a leased house becomes a home to the tenant.

I haven't forgotten about that. You are making the distinction between a property and a home.

There is nothing in legislation to say that a landlord can not keep possession of keys to their property.

You seem to be missing this fact.

Also, as pointed out here tenants can not make alterations to the property without the consent of the landlord.

Pawwed Rig

Here is the 2004 act http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2004/en/act/pub/0027/

At no point does it mention that the LL cannot hold a key to the property. Therefore if not explicitly prohibited it is allowed.
Frankly it would be ludicrous not to have a key of your own property. Under the law the LL is still ultimately responsible for the property and what goes on there. I think it would be grossly negligent were a LL not to have a key.

Any law prohibiting holding a key would be completely unenforceable and would only come to light were the LL to access the property which is covered in detail in the act.

odds_on

fl4pj4ck wrote: »

But of course it would! And there is ludicrous legislation I know of. So unless someone comes back with a definitive confirmation I don't see how are any of us in wrong discussing it.

Where in the legislation does it say that the landlord cannot retain a key for his property? Or that the tenant must have the
only keys for the property?

If a landlord requires to enter his property in an emergency, how is he expected to do so without a key? Break a window or break down a door?

fl4pj4ck

RangeR wrote: »

Out of curiosity, can you prove your version of the law?

no such thing as my version of the law,I made an observation based on what I've been told when I was in similar situation

D3PO

fl4pj4ck wrote: »

According to the links I posted earlier, you have a right to entry when there's an emergency, it doesn't explicitly say you're entitled to keep a key.

are you being obtuse for the sake of it. If you actually took a second to think how would they get in in the event of an emergency without a key ?

Are you really suggesting that they would have to break in to their own property to abide by the law ? Maybe you need to take a step back and think about what your posting before posting it.

D3PO

fl4pj4ck wrote: »

I took my time and backed up some of the fact with links for you to review. I don't understand why should I now take your word for granted and look up somewhere to confirm anything.
So unless you can back it up somehow I don't think of this as a "fact", at this time is pure speculation.

I'm not asking you to take my word for it. You can see posts from many persons on here whereby Threshold have got things wrong. Just because Threshold say something doesn't make it correct and there are umpteen cases where they have said something that is complete and utter nonsense.

Relying on somebody else that you think should know what they are talking about is not the best way to go about things. Researching and knowing yourself is much more prudent.

case in point only 3 weeks ago the Gardaí tweeted regarding the legalities of cycle lanes. Guess what the tweet was wrong the Gardaí who tweeted it didn't even know the law in question he/she thought they did. Que an embarrassing climbdown tweet a few hours later appologising for the misinformation.

Now many would just take what the Gardaí say as gospel I mean god forbid they wouldn't know what they are talking about, but they didn't. Same applies to Threshold and anybody else. Nobody is infallible and everybody makes mistakes including them. However in Thresholds case they make more mistakes than most.

You can accept that or not. It is true however, and calling threshold on something and taking it for Gospel is a very very unwise thing to do given their past record on giving out information.

The_Conductor

fl4pj4ck wrote: »

I made an observation based on what I've been told when I was in similar situation

Who told you this?
On what basis were you given this information?
Its factually inaccurate.
Please substantiate your hypothesis.

camphor

D3PO wrote: »

you wont find legislative wording to that effect.

what you will see if that the tenant is not entitled to modify the property without permission. Now given that the LL will have a spare key to his property and the locks cannot be changed without permission defacto the LL is entitled to a key to his property

RESIDENTIAL TENANCIES ACT 2004
Provisions regarding tenant's obligations
l) not alter or improve the dwelling without the written consent of the landlord which consent the landlord

“alter or improve”, in relation to a dwelling, includes—

(a) alter a locking system on a door giving entry to the dwelling, and

(b) make an addition to, or alteration of, a building or structure (including any building or structure subsidiary or ancillary to the dwelling),

Pawwed Rig

Camphor - You are misquoting D3PO here. The question was asked is if a Landlord is allowed hold a key for his property hence D3PO's response.
The part of the legislation you quoted relates to a separate issue.

mathepac

As an alternative to firing rocks at threshold.ie for unsubstantiated non-specific inaccuracies, some of you might find Irish Landlord an informative alternative.

D3PO

camphor wrote: »

RESIDENTIAL TENANCIES ACT 2004
Provisions regarding tenant's obligations
l) not alter or improve the dwelling without the written consent of the landlord which consent the landlord

“alter or improve”, in relation to a dwelling, includes—

(a) alter a locking system on a door giving entry to the dwelling, and

(b) make an addition to, or alteration of, a building or structure (including any building or structure subsidiary or ancillary to the dwelling),

what exactly is your point ? I just said that without quoting the act ......

Victor

Thread split from Locks changed without my knowledge or permission

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