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pump impeller melted ideas?

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  • 23-09-2013 9:55pm
    #1
    TPM
    Registered Users Posts: 871 ✭✭✭


    Got called to a boiler (grant vortex outdoor module) today.
    Burner firing up and boiler heating up but neat not circulating into the house.
    Boiler installed less than 5 months ago.
    after some checking looking I opened the circulating pump and found the impeller melted and motor just spinning.
    Was wondering if anyone had encountered this before and/or had any possible causes, I have a few ideas but cant really determine it.
    Also do you think there would be any point the home owner contacting grant re warranty


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    #2
    Robbie.G
    Registered Users Posts: 1,884 ✭✭✭Robbie.G


    TPM wrote: »
    Got called to a boiler (grant vortex outdoor module) today.
    Burner firing up and boiler heating up but neat not circulating into the house.
    Boiler installed less than 5 months ago.
    after some checking looking I opened the circulating pump and found the impeller melted and motor just spinning.
    Was wondering if anyone had encountered this before and/or had any possible causes, I have a few ideas but cant really determine it.
    Also do you think there would be any point the home owner contacting grant re warranty
    What temp was boiler running at.
    Did you check if stat phials were sitting in their pockets.
    What make of pump.


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    #3
    jimf
    Registered Users Posts: 3,955 ✭✭✭jimf


    hi tpm did you do the install


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    #4
    TPM
    Registered Users Posts: 871 ✭✭✭TPM


    you know the grant vortex, no numbers and movement limited but it was set in the middle of usable range, yes both phials were in the pockets, the boiler was sitting happily at temperature burner held off by temp stat and with the pump spinning away doing nothing.
    its a grant(wilo) 6m pump,
    the temp stat is working fine, havent checked the overtemp stat yet


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    #5
    TPM
    Registered Users Posts: 871 ✭✭✭TPM


    jimf wrote: »
    hi tpm did you do the install

    no I was in changing a ballcock in the attic and was asked to look at it as it "wasnt working"


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    #6
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    Is it a system boiler? That does look like an OEM Grundfos pump, but cannot tell for sure from that photo. Did it run dry?


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    #7
    oikster
    Closed Accounts Posts: 180 ✭✭oikster


    Agree looks like damage that would need the pump to have been dry. Are you sure no one else has looked at it?


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    #8
    TPM
    Registered Users Posts: 871 ✭✭✭TPM


    shane0007 wrote: »
    Is it a system boiler? That does look like an OEM Grundfos pump, but cannot tell for sure from that photo. Did it run dry?
    as far as i know its a vortex module with the seperate pressure kit fitted, I dont think grand supply the vortex in system form.
    its a grant supplied pump made by wilo.
    there was water in the system when i checked it, the pressure was just under .5 bar


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    #9
    TPM
    Registered Users Posts: 871 ✭✭✭TPM


    oikster wrote: »
    Agree looks like damage that would need the pump to have been dry. Are you sure no one else has looked at it?

    how long would a pump need to run dry for in order for that to happen? more than a min or two for sure
    i dont think anyone else looked at it, but dont know for sure.


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    #10
    oikster
    Closed Accounts Posts: 180 ✭✭oikster


    TPM wrote: »
    how long would a pump need to run dry for in order for that to happen? more than a min or two for sure
    i dont think anyone else looked at it, but dont know for sure.

    The reason I ask is in case someone looked at it ,saw that the pressure was down and topped it up thinking that they had fixed it. How long has it not been working?


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    #11
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    It's not really going to be a warranty issue unless the stat failed. It is more likely to be a low boiler water level, steam produced leading to melting of the impellor.


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    #12
    TPM
    Registered Users Posts: 871 ✭✭✭TPM


    oikster wrote: »
    The reason I ask is in case someone looked at it ,saw that the pressure was down and topped it up thinking that they had fixed it. How long has it not been working?

    that is always a possibility
    home owner was away for over a week, working fine when they left, not working last night when they got home.

    one drawback of the design of the condensing outdoor module, flow and return connections come out the top of the boiler then travel across and down the back of the boiler leaving them more susceptible to air locks and running dry than the traditional top/bottom connections.

    if it was a case of running dry is fitting a pressure cut out the best solution for preventing it reoccurring


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    #13
    TPM
    Registered Users Posts: 871 ✭✭✭TPM


    shane0007 wrote: »
    It's not really going to be a warranty issue unless the stat failed. It is more likely to be a low boiler water level, steam produced leading to melting of the impellor.

    the one thing that was steering me away from the steam was that the over temp stat hadnt tripped, but this may be less likely with the pockets being mounted on the outer of the boiler than with where the pocket is fitted into the top of the boiler?


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    #14
    jimf
    Registered Users Posts: 3,955 ✭✭✭jimf


    TPM wrote: »
    the one thing that was steering me away from the steam was that the over temp stat hadnt tripped, but this may be less likely with the pockets being mounted on the outer of the boiler than with where the pocket is fitted into the top of the boiler?


    as shane already stated I think you need to rule out the stat first maybe a faulty hl stat that's why it hadn't tripped ???


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    #15
    oikster
    Closed Accounts Posts: 180 ✭✭oikster


    You would almost think that the damage caused to the impeller would also have needed it to have been jammed on the housing while the shaft ran on. Very strange. All I can suggest is to find out if it was a replacement boiler and that the system was flushed and also make sure that there are no leaks.


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    #16
    Robbie.G
    Registered Users Posts: 1,884 ✭✭✭Robbie.G


    jimf wrote: »
    as shane already stated I think you need to rule out the stat first maybe a faulty hl stat that's why it hadn't tripped ???

    I had one a few years ago a vortex working stats failed boiler overheated melted Qualpex for 5 mtrs grant stood over it and ended up replacing boiler as there was warping to boiler also


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    #17
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    TPM wrote: »
    the one thing that was steering me away from the steam was that the over temp stat hadnt tripped, but this may be less likely with the pockets being mounted on the outer of the boiler than with where the pocket is fitted into the top of the boiler?

    They are factory set to 104C but have a tolerance of +/- 5C. Legal limit is 114C. The cycling of the burner usually converts to steam before high limit trips, especially when low water volume is present. The air bottle is on the return on those boilers & generally does not pose an issue. That is unless it has the new manual bleed screw instead of a bottle, which I personally disagree with.


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    #18
    corkgsxr
    Registered Users Posts: 3,404 ✭✭✭corkgsxr


    TPM wrote: »
    that is always a possibility
    home owner was away for over a week, working fine when they left, not working last night when they got home.

    one drawback of the design of the condensing outdoor module, flow and return connections come out the top of the boiler then travel across and down the back of the boiler leaving them more susceptible to air locks and running dry than the traditional top/bottom connections.

    if it was a case of running dry is fitting a pressure cut out the best solution for preventing it reoccurring

    Put a auto air vent up there. Flamco one. They never leak


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    #19
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    corkgsxr wrote: »
    Put a auto air vent up there. Flamco one. They never leak

    You will probably find they are too tall for the module. You need the short stubby ones Grant used to use before changing to the manual air release vent.


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    #20
    TPM
    Registered Users Posts: 871 ✭✭✭TPM


    jimf wrote: »
    as shane already stated I think you need to rule out the stat first maybe a faulty hl stat that's why it hadn't tripped ???

    Yes it does need to be checked out, which i will do in the morning when i go back to it.
    Saying that I can see how it would be possible for the stats to be working properly but due to low water and the configuration of the boiler flow and return that the pump could end up running dry and overheating, which is what im leaning towards at the moment.


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    #21
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    I was called to a FB a couple of years ago that kept emptying its water content & tripping the HL. A leak inside the house was the culprit. When I opened a boiler AAV, pure super steam hissed out for about 10 minutes. Had to hold a towel over my arm to release it.

    You could move the pump to inside the house or switch the pump to the return if it's on the flow.


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    #22
    oikster
    Closed Accounts Posts: 180 ✭✭oikster


    What if there is an unnoticed leak that dropped the water level below the pump while the occupants were away. Occupants return home and turn on boiler not knowing about the leak. Boiler fires up and pump runs. Boiler cuts out on stat or limit stat and pump runs on dry. Eventually occupier notices no heat so checks boiler tops up pressure and resets stat and then notices still no heat,but the damage is done.Enter TPM..........TADAAAAA.....


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    #23
    TPM
    Registered Users Posts: 871 ✭✭✭TPM


    oikster wrote: »
    You would almost think that the damage caused to the impeller would also have needed it to have been jammed on the housing while the shaft ran on. Very strange. All I can suggest is to find out if it was a replacement boiler and that the system was flushed and also make sure that there are no leaks.
    The impeller is solid to the pump, and you can see in the photo where the impeller has sank down as the motor cut through it while it wa sspinning
    Robbie.G wrote: »
    I had one a few years ago a vortex working stats failed boiler overheated melted Qualpex for 5 mtrs grant stood over it and ended up replacing boiler as there was warping to boiler also
    I have heard that grant are very good to deal with in relation claims, and the fact that todate i have never had to contact the, in relation to warranty goes to show the quality of the units
    shane0007 wrote: »
    They are factory set to 104C but have a tolerance of +/- 5C. Legal limit is 114C. The cycling of the burner usually converts to steam before high limit trips, especially when low water volume is present. The air bottle is on the return on those boilers & generally does not pose an issue. That is unless it has the new manual bleed screw instead of a bottle, which I personally disagree with.
    shane0007 wrote: »
    You will probably find they are too tall for the module. You need the short stubby ones Grant used to use before changing to the manual air release vent.


    it is the stubby one that is fitted to this one, it is fitted on the flow manifold pipe after the safety valve and before the pump


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    #24
    TPM
    Registered Users Posts: 871 ✭✭✭TPM


    shane0007 wrote: »
    I was called to a FB a couple of years ago that kept emptying its water content & tripping the HL. A leak inside the house was the culprit. When I opened a boiler AAV, pure super steam hissed out for about 10 minutes. Had to hold a towel over my arm to release it.

    You could move the pump to inside the house or switch the pump to the return if it's on the flow.

    have had my fair share of steaming boilers, just never one that melted a pump.

    yes it is on the flow, which tbh im not a fan of, on the return, it runs at a lower temp and has much less of a chance of running dry. I dont understand why a lot of boiler manufacturers recommend them on the flow
    oikster wrote: »
    What if there is an unnoticed leak that dropped the water level below the pump while the occupants were away. Occupants return home and turn on boiler not knowing about the leak. Boiler fires up and pump runs. Boiler cuts out on stat or limit stat and pump runs on dry. Eventually occupier notices no heat so checks boiler tops up pressure and resets stat and then notices still no heat,but the damage is done.Enter TPM..........TADAAAAA.....


    that is sounding like the most likely case at the moment


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    #25
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    TPM wrote: »
    it is the stubby one that is fitted to this one, it is fitted on the flow manifold pipe after the safety valve and before the pump

    That is very odd. They are always factory fitted on on the return. I wonder did the installer make any alteration to the pipework. The return is nearest the front of the boiler & the flow has the temperature phials pocket built in. (Factory formed bend).
    I would also move the pump to the return to eliminate a reoccurrence of this.


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    #26
    TPM
    Registered Users Posts: 871 ✭✭✭TPM


    shane0007 wrote: »
    That is very odd. They are always factory fitted on on the return. I wonder did the installer make any alteration to the pipework. The return is nearest the front of the boiler & the flow has the temperature phials pocket built in. (Factory formed bend).
    I would also move the pump to the return to eliminate a reoccurrence of this.

    it looked the same as ones i installed with the separate sealed system kit, and the instructions state to fit the aav on the flow

    6 Fit the 22 mm compression elbow onto the boiler
    flow connection.
    7 Fit the pressure relief valve and automatic air vent
    onto the manifold pipe. Then fit the manifold pipe
    end into the 22mm compression connector on the
    boiler flow pipe.
    8 Fit both 22 mm pump valves to the circulating
    pump using the sealing washers supplied.
    9 Fit the pump assembly to the automatic air vent/
    pressure relief valve assembly ensuring that the
    pump shaft is horizontal and the pump motor is
    facing towards the front of the boiler. The flow
    arrow on the body of the pump must face in the
    direction of flow away from the boiler connection

    the phials are down the side of the boiler, not into any pipework.

    i was going to suggest fitting a pressure loss switch as the pump is probably the highest part of the whole system due to the boiler position.

    well it all depends on if I end up rectifying it, as the homeowner could go back to the original installer


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    #27
    scudo2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,008 ✭✭✭scudo2


    Was the pump on top of the boiler as that's a position where I've had a few problems with. I perfer them on the cold return fitted half way down the boiler as they never have a problem with air in that position, unless you have a leak in a sealed system of cource.
    I've had a few jamed and melted pumps before too, mainly due to the pump air locks (full of air) boiler switches off as normal due to temp. doesent always have to over heat but pump keeps running on air till it burns out.

    What position was it in ?

    I perfer the lower one.





    Hope this didn't sound like a lot of porn !!!


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    #28
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    They are normally pre-installed for the module range.
    The pump should also never be fitted with the impellor facing upwards.


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    #29
    TPM
    Registered Users Posts: 871 ✭✭✭TPM


    the 50/90 unit is slightly different
    top of first attachment
    and the instructions for the sealed system kit states to fit the aav on the flow pipe, even though it is fitted on the return ex factory, this location of the stubby bottle prevents the fitting of the sealed system manifold pipe.

    I hope nobody minds that we have drifted slightly from the melting impeller to the configuration/installation of the vortex pipework and fittings.


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    #30
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    That is why I asked originally was it a system boiler.
    Does the boiler in question have the system kit?
    On your first attachment, you will see the diagrams showing the AAV on the returns.


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    #31
    TPM
    Registered Users Posts: 871 ✭✭✭TPM


    sorry when i replied i referred to the kit as the pressure kit instead of the sealed system kit.

    it was late tonight when i looked at it, but it seems to have the kit fitted,
    with the pump mounted on top of the boiler, with the bleed screw facing the front of the boiler,(partially blocked be the electrical connection/control panel.


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