The infamous pitch: Put the brakes on second hop.

realgolfgeek

I'd love to be able to perfect this shot.
I would consider myself to have a very good short game, but this is one shot that I'm missing.
9 times out of 10 I let the ball release but there are times where I'd like to fly the ball closer and let the spin kick in on the second bounce.

Anyone a master at this shot ? Anyone care to give some advice ?
Do your grooves have to be spotless, does it make that much of a difference ? Does the type of grass you're playing on make a difference, if it's wet or dry ? Do you have to play the shot off a very tight lie ?

Thanks.

Edit: I've a titleist vokey 56 degree, right club ?

Miley Byrne

I use a 60deg vokey for these shots. Now i won't say I've totally perfected this shot but it has improve a lot this year through practice. The key for me is don't be afraid to be aggressive and zip the clubface under the ball. The biggest fault I used to have on these shots was not accelerating through impace enough so I didn't generate enough spin. I presume you are using Pro V1s?

realgolfgeek

denisoc16 wrote: »

I use a 60deg vokey for these shots. Now i won't say I've totally perfected this shot but it has improve a lot this year through practice. The key for me is don't be afraid to be aggressive and zip the clubface under the ball. The biggest fault I used to have on these shots was not accelerating through impace enough so I didn't generate enough spin. I presume you are using Pro V1s?

I do, I use Pro V1x.
So acceleration ... if I have to accelerate more so than often, should I be taking a shorter backswing then to accomodate ... so the ball doesn't go too far ?
Do you play the ball back in your stance ?

ForeRight

I play the ball back in my stance.
Short snappy swing with huge acceleration on the down swing trough the ball.

It takes 100% commitment with no bottling out of the shot.

If you get it wrong you get it very wrong this is the problem with this shot.

Probably have more consistency trying to perfect I nice pitch and run shot to be honest. It's by far the easier shot to perfect.

Miley Byrne

I would play it from centre to a ball or two behind centre depending on the trajectory I need. Hands forward and hinge the wrists going back and hold them on the follow through. Slow takeaway and quick through impact, keeping hands low on followthrough.

Before anyone takes this method apart, this is the way I do it. May not be textbook stuff but it works for me. My chipping & pitching had gone to pot a couple of years ago and a friend of mine who plays off 1 gave me a few drills & tips to work on. He plays the same shot but with a 64 deg wedge and has it perfected.

bustercherry

realgolfgeek wrote: »

I do, I use Pro V1x.
So acceleration ... if I have to accelerate more so than often, should I be taking a shorter backswing then to accomodate ... so the ball doesn't go too far ?
Do you play the ball back in your stance ?

Trying to accelerate through with a 60 degree only ends in tears. It's all about the correct contact rather than acceleration. I always (and was taught to) play pitch and chip shots with a smooth tempo back and through.

realgolfgeek

thanks for the tips.
Will give it a go at the practice area.
Will report back !!!

gorfield

Hundreds of hours of practice, clean grooves, good lie. Very difficult without all 3.

Rikand

gorfield wrote: »

Hundreds of hours of practice, clean grooves, good lie. Very difficult without all 3.

Maybe for an amateur like you :rolleyes:

copacetic

You should look at the ball you are playing with also, in my opinion all club players are best with the softest ball that gives reasonable distance. The extra couple of yard doesn't make much difference but the extra spin will.

What bounce is on your 56 wedge? If is is more that 8 (which is probably is) then it is hard to hit the shot with confidence.

I think you can play it two ways, low skiddy spinner that grips hard on second to third bounce (if so shot is clear run with a fair bit of green). That can be played best with a nice 52/8 wedge. Play this with good acceleration but clip it more than anything else.

Then a more elevated shot from further out with a pronounced first bounce and grip on the second. This should be played also with a good acceleration through the ball and a divot.

You have to play it hard and accelerate, doesn't work otherwise. That's why pros can't help but spin the ball, they accelerate so much through it.

Decent grooves, softish ball, hit it hard enough to get good spin.

Low bounce makes the shot a bit easier off a tight lie, as less likely to catch it in the middle.

TRS30

You need good club head speed to impact enough spin on the ball to get it to stop. I do this by a slightly shorter back swing and really accelerate through the ball.

As previously mentioned, good lie (fairway), very clean grooves, good quality ball and dry conditions are always required.

Russman

Confidence and commitment are key, along with good grooves. I tend to keep my wrists firm through impact on this shot.

Strangely (or maybe not), I really struggle to play it with a Vokey wedge, just can't seem to get the grip on the second bounce. I've found it much easier with a Callaway or Mizuno wedge for some reason.

Of course, it was even easier with the non-conforming grooves of a few years ago, but is still quite doable with the CC grooves nowadays.

TRS30

Russman wrote: »

Of course, it was even easier with the non-conforming grooves of a few years ago, but is still quite doable with the CC grooves nowadays.

Us amateurs can still use the old grooves till 2016.

Russman

TRS30 wrote: »

Us amateurs can still use the old grooves till 2016.

Ohh absolutely, I stockpiled 3 brand new Callaway X-Tour 56 deg wedges that I got on the interweb about 3 years ago ! :)

John Divney

I've improved this shot by picking it cleanily. Have you ever thought you bladed a sand wedge from 60 yards, had it fly abut 10 feet high all the way to the green like a bullet, and think, that's going out of bounds ir in the rough off the back, and it spins Once and stops dead by the flag, when it really had no right too?

That's more or less the same principle, except you mean to do it.

Senecio

TRS30 wrote: »

Us amateurs can still use the old grooves till 2016.

2024, unless you intend to play at the elite amateur level.

Link

TRS30

Senecio wrote: »

2024, unless you intend to play at the elite amateur level.

Link

Thanks. Not sure if my grooves will last that long!

Senecio

TRS30 wrote: »

Thanks. Not sure if my grooves will last that long!

Nor will mine, but someone like Rusman who has stockpiled wedges may just get there.

Redzah

John Divney wrote: »

I've improved this shot by picking it cleanily. Have you ever thought you bladed a sand wedge from 60 yards, had it fly abut 10 feet high all the way to the green like a bullet, and think, that's going out of bounds ir in the rough off the back, and it spins Once and stops dead by the flag, when it really had no right too?

That's more or less the same principle, except you mean to do it.

Don't think i agree with this. Its true that those clean/boned shots can spin at times if enough of the grooves grip the ball but this is definately not the principle for these shots. A bit of turf should definately be taken after the ball for the shot u require, a good mental thought is to concentrate and hitting down a bit towards the middle of the ball instead of at the back of the ball, this will focus a ball first turf after strike.

Problem with trying to pick the ball is it may result in a scooping action/swing. Without hitting down on it (don't exaggerate and try hit down on it too much, only a slight bit) then it will be hard to generate the spin required.

Agree with the fact that tempo is important, no extra agression is required in swing speed. The agression element comes from the fact that you are willing to throw it lower closer to the flag trusting the spin, it does not transpire into a more agressive swing. The set up and swing mechanics is what u need.

John Divney

You don't need to hit down, the attack angle is shallow, but the loft is low. There is no need for a divot, the ball on the grooves, no debris, with a low loft (forward shaft lean)

Just hitting down on the ball for spin does not work. it lowers the ball flight all right, but does not stop quick on second bounce.

Benny Cake

Not sure what the OP plays off, but surely this is a pretty unnecessary shot for most handicap golfers to have in their Arsenal?

stockdam

Benny Cake wrote: »

Not sure what the OP plays off, but surely this is a pretty unnecessary shot for most handicap golfers to have in their Arsenal?

Disagree strongly.

I used to play with an 8 handicapper who had a bad back and was short off the tee etc.

However he had the most incredible wedge play. He hit the ball so low into the green that you thought it would sail past into the rough. Instead it would check on the 2nd bounce. It was a bit like playing darts.....he hit the ball at the pin and was rarely over 10 feet away from under 50 yards. He saved lots of shots and that is something that every high handicapper would love to be able to do.

Benny Cake

stockdam wrote: »

Disagree strongly.

I used to play with an 8 handicapper who had a bad back and was short off the tee etc.

However he had the most incredible wedge play. He hit the ball so low into the green that you thought it would sail past into the rough. Instead it would check on the 2nd bounce. It was a bit like playing darts.....he hit the ball at the pin and was rarely over 10 feet away from under 50 yards. He saved lots of shots and that is something that every high handicapper would love to be able to do.

OK. But why not just pitch the ball onto the green and allow it to release a little? Your mate sounds like a bit of a magician around the greens, I'm just saying its very high risk golf for the majority...

Redzah

John Divney wrote: »

You don't need to hit down, the attack angle is shallow, but the loft is low. There is no need for a divot, the ball on the grooves, no debris, with a low loft (forward shaft lean)

Just hitting down on the ball for spin does not work. it lowers the ball flight all right, but does not stop quick on second bounce.

I think we're talking about different shots then. A lower loft say a 52 degree for this shot will check on 2nd/3rd bounce and will then continue to release. The shot I'm talking about will check and pretty much come to a halt on 2nd bounce and this shot is close to impossible to play with a lower loft and a shallow angle and no divot (unless the greens are very soft).

In relation to the requirement to play it, the benefit occurs when there are tiered greens and u can control the spin (eg to slow the ball at the top of a ridge before leaving it release down toward to hole etc), requires a mix between practice, a good golfing brain on the right shot for the right time and after that its the right strike which for a 60 yard low flighted shot that will come to a halt on the second bounce has to be downward with the small divot half an inch after the ball

John Divney

Redzah wrote: »

I think we're talking about different shots then. A lower loft say a 52 degree for this shot will check on 2nd/3rd bounce and will then continue to release. The shot I'm talking about will check and pretty much come to a halt on 2nd bounce and this shot is close to impossible to play with a lower loft and a shallow angle and no divot (unless the greens are very soft).

In relation to the requirement to play it, the benefit occurs when there are tiered greens and u can control the spin (eg to slow the ball at the top of a ridge before leaving it release down toward to hole etc), requires a mix between practice, a good golfing brain on the right shot for the right time and after that its the right strike which for a 60 yard low flighted shot that will come to a halt on the second bounce has to be downward with the small divot half an inch after the ball

I don't think it changes, for a 50 yard pitch, a 30 yard pitch, and you want to land it low and at the pin. obviously everybody does it differently with success, but there is data out there for why and what works, and waht tour pros generally do.

Andrew Rice who has a very good blog focusing on research came up with this list

-Great pitchers generally take very little divot, flight the ball low and create high spin rates

-Lower trajectory shots are substantially easier to gauge than higher ones

-When struck correctly lower trajectory shots will have more spin than higher lofted ones

-Most golfers perform better when pitching with their second most lofted club (SW vs LW)

-There are two controllable ways to stop a golf ball – high spin rate and a steep land angle

-Thin shots have more spin than you might think

-The quality of the clubface to ball interaction (friction) is very important in generating spin

-The quality of the lie plays a big role in determining the clubface to ball interaction

-The optimal lie for amazing pitches is a fairly tight, downgrain lie

-Any moisture that gets between the face and ball will decrease friction and thus increase launch angle and reduce spin

-Sand between the face and the ball will increase friction and thus lower launch angle and increase spin

-When practicing it is important to keep a wet towel handy to clean the face after every few shots – don’t use a tee

-Older clubs with worn down grooves or without a milled face will never spin the ball as much as a fresh wedge with a milled face (all else being equal)

-A fresh (new), milled face is more important than fresh grooves or even square grooves

Premium golf balls flight better and spin more than inexpensive golf balls

-The optimal technique is based almost entirely around managing the angle of attack

Controlling what the handle does through impact is vital in managing the angle of attack

A club path that tracks from from in to out will most often lead to better strikes, lower trajectory and more spin

Where a golfer seeks to add loft – bounce, and thus the grind/shape of the sole, will play a bigger role

For stock. and thus lower flighted shots the bounce plays less of a role than you might imagine

Have a look at his blog for some good insights, that is just a round up, there is a lot of science and trackman data, he did test with Moilinari and got his data, and other pros.

http://www.andrewricegolf.com/tag/friction/

Redzah

John Divney wrote: »

I don't think it changes, for a 50 yard pitch, a 30 yard pitch, and you want to land it low and at the pin. obviously everybody does it differently with success, but there is data out there for why and what works, and waht tour pros generally do.

Andrew Rice who has a very good blog focusing on research came up with this list



Have a look at his blog for some good insights, that is just a round up, there is a lot of science and trackman data, he did test with Moilinari and got his data, and other pros.

http://www.andrewricegolf.com/tag/friction/

While a lot of the above is interesting, it doesn't really address what i was saying. The loft for a 30 or 50 yard shot is crucial to the type of shot you want to play. To play this with a sand wedge with a shallow swing as you mention then you will not generate as high a spin rate and to fire it in lower then an allowance has to be made for a reasonable element of run out after the ball checks which would usually be 3rd bounce with a shot like this. If this is played with a lob wedge then the ball will come to a stand still and usually on 2nd bounce if the shot is executed correctly. Both shots are effective and should be used at different times but they are different shots.

John Divney

Why won't it? We are talking about a shot low trajectory, that bounces a varying distance to the hole and hopes then spins to a stop, landing close

Look at these stats from Molinari, a lob wedge

Molinari - 60 Degree Wedge -

Friction Launch 22.9 degrees/Spin Rate 6048/Launch Angle 36.2 degrees/Height 34.8ft/Carry 51.0yds

56 Degree Wedge

Friction Launch 24.4 degrees/Spin Rate 6046/Launch Angle 34.2 degrees/Height 31.5ft/Carry 50.5yds

If he had a 52 degree wedge he would still hit it lower, land it close to the pin and spin it to a halt.

Redzah

John Divney wrote: »

Why won't it? We are talking about a shot low trajectory, that bounces a varying distance to the hole and hopes then spins to a stop, landing close

Look at these stats from Molinari, a lob wedge

Molinari - 60 Degree Wedge -

Friction Launch 22.9 degrees/Spin Rate 6048/Launch Angle 36.2 degrees/Height 34.8ft/Carry 51.0yds

56 Degree Wedge

Friction Launch 24.4 degrees/Spin Rate 6046/Launch Angle 34.2 degrees/Height 31.5ft/Carry 50.5yds

If he had a 52 degree wedge he would still hit it lower, land it close to the pin and spin it to a halt.

At what point does the loft became an issue then based on your stats? What about doing this with 35 degrees? The thing is to play this shot from 30 yards with a 52 degree it might generate spin ( not as much as a 60 as the distance will require the 60 to be hit slightly harder generating more spin) but also the trajectory and forward momentum will not enable the ball to spin as much as it will be fired in too low, there is a balance with this.

I'm not one for the golf technicalities and I'm more of a feel player but I would advise you to keep a close eye on the pros on tv for this shot and look at the ones that stop and the ones that release and then look at the club. Alternatively pay a visit to one of the Irish amateur events and watch what club they use up close

realgolfgeek

Benny Cake wrote: »

OK. But why not just pitch the ball onto the green and allow it to release a little?

I'll give one reason for the moment Benny.

Let's say I'm ten yards off the green, and the pin is say 6 feet on.
A bump and run on fairway first and then onto the green, I feel, is alot less reliable and consistent than pulling off the shot I mentioned, no ? (obviously if played correctly)

John Divney

The stats I've seen, the pros take a sand wedge and the 'Dyanmic lof' (loft at impact is about 45 degrees with a 56 degeree wedge.

So a 52 degree would turn into 40 degrees at impact

This guy, from his stats says, a pitching wedge is better for low spinning than a lob wedge, as the angle of attack does not have to be so downward, it creates a lower 'Spin loft' (trackman term for Dynamic loft minus angle of attack)

Then he says 'This type of strike on the ball leads to a scenario where the friction between the face and the ball is far higher than normal. This increased friction leads to a lower launch and trajectory with a substantially higher spin rate. This grip between the ball and face is what I call ‘friction launch’ and just like the term spin loft it addresses the friction and launch of any shot.'



So try it out, if you have a good 47 degree wedge,

Ironically I've stopped trying this hot as I haven't been practicing and due to the dry weather earlier was bumping and running everything with moderate success, and landing high sand wedges softly and letting roll oui to get over trouble

Senna

I used to love practising this shot and got fairly good at it during the summers when the lies were hard, but I would not try it in a round where the score means something. Real precision shot that requires total confidence, something I couldn't muster for a risking shot like that during a comp round.

Senecio

The shot that the OP has described must be played with a very slightly descending blow and the full natural loft of the club. That way the club strikes the ball with a glancing blow across the bottom of the ball generating the maximum amount of spin with the least amount of elevation. De-lofting the club face will produce less spin for a given club head speed.

This is what makes this shot so difficult. Presenting the full 56+ degrees of loft to the ball at impact with a slight descending blow without fear of blading it. You almost must not allow your left wrist to break down thereby flipping or scooping at impact.

One of the most difficult shots in all of golf, when executed well it looks absolutely amazing. It can also make you look a right twit.