Interview with Pope Francis

Benny_Cake

So Pope Francis has given a lengthy interview to the Jesuit magazine, America.

(It takes a while to get through but the New York Times summarises some of the more interesting remarks here)

Needless to say, most of the media focus seems to have been on what he had to say about homosexuality, women, and abortion but it seems to me that he hasn't said a lot that he hasn't said before on those issues. One of his remarks that caught my eye was this:

..the proclamation of the saving love of God comes before moral and religious imperatives.

He also admits that he had an overly authoritarian manner in the past:

It was my authoritarian way of making decisions that created problems.

Overall, he comes across to me as honest and humble, but what does everyone else think? I'm especially interested to hear what practising Catholics think.

Manach

It is an article to dwell over.
He comes across as a humane pope and willing to reach across to other groupings.
However unlike the previous Pope, he has not quite the experience of a surging secularism against the of the Church in Europe - which instills a rather defensive tone here. As well, he in other recent interviews he stresses the importance to a balanced approach to spiritual life, for clergy not to fall into the realm of being a social activist but to help the sinner. So there are layers of complexity in his messages.

Faith2013

Great interview, And I see you have shared the link to the actual interview where people can read what he really said. the Pope has not changed anything of the Church's teaching, but as he said if you have a dying person you can not going to said their cholesterol is too high, we need to treat the person first for the problem that is most critical. We need to proclaim the gospel so that is heard for what is it. This is very much a Jesuit approach.

joseph brand

..the proclamation of the saving love of God comes before moral and religious imperatives.

Does this mean proselytising is more important than; a) being a decent human and b) going to mass/ saying prayers?

I assume that's what he meant, as he also said this:

We need to proclaim the Gospel on every street corner, preaching the good news of the kingdom and healing, even with our preaching, every kind of disease and wound.

Has this anything to do with their dwindling numbers?

Instead of being just a church that welcomes and receives by keeping the doors open, let us try also to be a church that finds new roads, that is able to step outside itself and go to those who do not attend Mass, to those who have quit or are indifferent. The ones who quit sometimes do it for reasons that, if properly understood and assessed, can lead to a return. But that takes audacity and courage.

Benny_Cake

There may be some significance in his establishment of an advisory group of cardinals? A small step towards greater collegiality perhaps?

I've read a number of comments suggesting that he's all talk and no action. It seems to me that bringing about change in the Catholic Church is a bit like doing a 90 degree turn in an oil tanker - it's so big and unwieldy that when it happens, it happens very slowly. This is an organisation which thinks in centuries, after all.

Of course, whether major change is required or not is a matter of opinion. I think it is, but as someone who has parted with the church (but is fascinated by it, and bears it no ill will) my opinion is not one which is counts for a lot!

Peregrinus

joseph brand wrote: »

Does this mean proselytising is more important than; a) being a decent human and b) going to mass/ saying prayers?

Only if you think that, when Pope Francis says "proclamation of the saving love of God", he means "proselytising".

I don't think he does, myself. He comes from a tradition in which "proclamation" is very much not confined to "announcing things" - it very much involves being a "decent human being" - and "saving love of God" is not a code-word for membership of the Catholic church.

In short, I think you're trying to view this through the framework of a dichotomy which Pope Francis doesn't share. He just wouldn't accept that there's a tension between proclaiming the love of God and being a decent human being, or that you could ever prioritise one over the other.

Peregrinus

Benny_Cake wrote: »

There may be some significance in his establishment of an advisory group of cardinals? A small step towards greater collegiality perhaps?

Um.

I’m in two minds about this. On the one hand, my gut says that cardinals are part of the problem. They’re part of the Vatican, curial system. When people call for greater collegiality, they’re talking about greater collegiality with the bishops, the people who actually lead the church on the ground, rather than with the cardinals, whose main role is to either (a) control or (b) marginalise the bishops. (OK, I exaggerate to make a point, but you see what I’m saying.) From this point of view, if he had appointed an advisory commission of diocesan bishops, it would have been much more encouraging.

On the other hand, if you want to make an enduring change to a body like the Catholic church, you need to bring people along with you. Pope Francis won’t serve for ever and if, when he goes, there’s still a big bunch of cardinals who think that they should be controlling and marginalising and the main quality a bishop needs is the ability to to stay on message, not much will have really changed. So if he does want to change the way things are done, he needs to bring at least a respectable number of cardinals along with him, and/or over time replace some of the current cardinals with cardinals who already think like him. Even if what he is doing is reducing the influence of the cardinals, he has to involve the cardinals in doing that.

Benny_Cake wrote: »

I've read a number of comments suggesting that he's all talk and no action. It seems to me that bringing about change in the Catholic Church is a bit like doing a 90 degree turn in an oil tanker - it's so big and unwieldy that when it happens, it happens very slowly. This is an organisation which thinks in centuries, after all.

Yup. Pope Benedict served for eight years, and in that time as far as I can see basically achieved very little in terms of advancing his agenda in any enduring way. The kind of change that people are looking for in the Catholic church is cultural change; that takes a generation.

Manach

Peregrinus wrote: »

Um.

Yup. Pope Benedict served for eight years, and in that time as far as I can see basically achieved very little in terms of advancing his agenda in any enduring way. .

I disagree. His published material and having his as a voice against the rising tide of secularism served as a primary source of inspiration to many.

Faith2013

[QUOTE=Peregrinus;86629484
Pope Benedict served for eight years, and in that time as far as I can see basically achieved very little in terms of advancing his agenda in any enduring way. The kind of change that people are looking for in the Catholic church is cultural change; that takes a generation.[/QUOTE]

Pope Benedict was abanadoned by those around him, the Curia closed in around him. They never said it coming that he would resign, they saw a figure who could live on another 10 years (after all his elder brother is still alive)

However he made a ver radical decision, a reforming decision. He resigned and in that way had brought a planned change to the Catholic Church.

Pope Francis can't change the Faith, but he can teach it with a differnt voice.

Peregrinus

Manach wrote: »

I disagree. His published material and having his as a voice against the rising tide of secularism served as a primary source of inspiration to many.

Fair point. I perhaps should have said that he didn't achieve a huge amount in terms of bringing Vatican structures and institutions into alignment with his vision of the church.

(And of course there's a view out there that disappointment and discouragment in that department is part of what led him to his decision to resign. I couldn't possibly comment.)

scidive

<Snipped>
Source of post.

Mod: Plagiarism is heavily against the charter. In future when linking to an article quote the sections of it deem most relevant and please provide a source and give credit to the original author.

scidive

I don't like the direction this Pope is taking the Catholic church. He's making our protestant cousins look conservative. The Catholic church is one of the few organisations left in society that gives society moral direction and Pope Francis thinks were too obsessed by it. There never was a more important time when moral direction was needed as our media , tv's , internet ect have saturated society with immorality.

I don't agree also that the church insists only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage and contraception. The church is far more than that there's marriage,baptism, funerals , outreach to the poor and disadvantaged ect ect ect and this statement makes no sense and is an insult to other members of the church.

scidive wrote: »

"VATICAN CITY (CNS) --

"We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage and the use of contraceptive methods," the pope said in the interview, noting that he had been "reprimanded" for failing to speak often about those topics. "It is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time.

Faith2013

scidive wrote: »

I don't like the direction this Pope is taking the Catholic church. He's making our protestant cousins look conservative. The Catholic church is one of the few organisations left in society that gives society moral direction and Pope Francis thinks were too obsessed by it. There never was a more important time when moral direction was needed as our media , tv's , internet ect have saturated society with immorality.

I don't agree also that the church insists only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage and contraception. The church is far more than that there's marriage,baptism, funerals , outreach to the poor and disadvantaged ect ect ect and this statement makes no sense and is an insult to other members of the church.

How do you give moral direction to people that won't even engage with you? Remember it took Christ 3 years to preach his Gospel.

For us who live a conservative Catholic life its well and fine. But Christ came for the sinners not for the just.

The Pope is engaging with the Lost Sheep, showing love and trying to bring them back to a dialogue with the Church.. From there People can start a path back to faith. The Pope has not changed Church teaching, just the voice with which its taught.

scidive

Faith2013 wrote: »

How do you give moral direction to people that won't even engage with you? Remember it took Christ 3 years to preach his Gospel.

For us who live a conservative Catholic life its well and fine. But Christ came for the sinners not for the just.

The Pope is engaging with the Lost Sheep, showing love and trying to bring them back to a dialogue with the Church.. From there People can start a path back to faith. The Pope has not changed Church teaching, just the voice with which its taught.

The pope by his actions is suppressing the truth being told on abortion, gay marriage and the use of contraceptive methods in the belief that it would become more accepting to society with the hope that it will draw people back to faith. Its a change in approach of the church that could do more damage to the church by eroding its own moral authority in its long held principles and doctrines that in effect turns the church to society norms rather than society to church norms and is not the approch that Jesus took.

Taking the example of Jesus he went out and preached the truth . Jesus didn't use popularity (by suppressing some truths) to engage with all people at that time and lead them to faith . No he went out and preached the full truth which offended and enraged some people to the point that he and his apostles were treated as out casts, ridiculed and eventually put to death .

Benny_Cake

scidive wrote: »

The pope by his actions is suppressing the truth being told on abortion, gay marriage and the use of contraceptive methods in the belief that it would become more accepting to society with the hope that it will draw people back to faith.

How is he preventing people from saying what they believe? Anyway, can there be anyone on the face of this planet who isn't aware of the Catholic church's position on abortion, contraception and gay marriage? I think the message is out at this stage.

Manach

I'm very much tending to Scidive's point of view.
However, this in the truest sense of a word a challenge, to reflect on Church teaching and social matters in light of the Pope's pronouncement and not act in a way that is based on my own personal biases.

Benny_Cake

Time will tell. I'm very much aware of the cack-handed way that most of the media cover religious matters (which is why I included the link to the full interview). The excellent Get Religion blog covers this well.

I wouldn't leap to any conclusions based on some of the rather fawning coverage in the media. At the same time I wouldn't dismiss the man based on that either. I'm an interested onlooker on this anyway, but it certainly seems that Francis has provoked a reaction one way or the other.

scidive

The change in approach by the church led by Pope Franics to become more engaging is already building pressures and expectations on the church to change to society norms as this comment on his interview shows :

"The Human Rights Campaign, which supports lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender rights, hailed the pope's remarks, saying they should lead to "transformative change" throughout the Catholic Church. It tweeted:"

lmaopml

I think the reaction to Pope Francis is possibly as predictable as it could have been for his predecessor.

To be honest, I don't think he is saying - 'Here I am, change is on the cards as regards what I call a 'sin'' etc. etc. - He knows quite well that it's not his job.

I loved Pope Benedict and indeed I love Pope Francis too - I think perhaps it's a little harder to get to know Benedict and not be swayed by tit bits of public opinion. Read his words and know him better - he was lovely, the theologian, the peace maker! Sure isn't it the same with everybody?

Pope Francis points this out too - he is quite well aware I'm sure that every single word he says people will hang on to, especially as regards a way of separating sinners one from the other, and those who say 'these' are the worst kind!

Pope Francis is a pastor - he knows that preaching the Gospel changes lives, because Christ himself works in the heart of those who seek him - knowing Christ doesn't necessitate being always perfect, no - because we all love to be a critic at times, but not so much to be self critics - conforming to the world even less so seems to be the priority of this Pope, he is simply preaching Christ.

I love his idea of the interdependence of the body of Christ, it's quite inline with his predecessor - we all have our function and it's terribly important that we mind each other. Most especially if we are aware that what is being preached is losing our lives to make Christ it's centre - that's not easy...but we trust, and have faith and are united. That's the Catholic Church, and it's beautiful.

Ambersky

At last! I know so many good people who were part of the catholic church, were excited by the ideas of the second vatican council and truly believed they were the church and wanted to contribute to it. Then with the rising tide of conservatism, the constant focus on doctrine and quite frankly the obsession with policing sex, fighting every gain made by feminism and being anti gay, these good people felt absolutely rejected by and bereft of Church. For a long time there has been no place for us and those who spoke up for us or better still allowed us to speak in churches and about church, were often silenced. It has been a fearful and repressive time.
For many people who are good people, living lives working for social justice and reform there has been no place for us in the catholic church. Not only has there been no place, the Catholic church has become our opponent and even our enemy .
I remember one television program with Colim O Gorman and a Catholic bishop in it as panelists and looking at them and listening to them I know who I would go to if I was in trouble or needed someone to understand and to listen. The Bishop seemed so closed in himself, academic and insular. Colim the gay man and father, rejected and even abused by representatives of the Catholic church seemed more like the Good Samaritan of the Bible, he seemed open and compassionate and in touch with those who were wounded. The Bishop more concerned with rules regulations and doctrine seemed more like the Priests and Levites of that story, simply missing the point and the golden rule of all spirituality that of kindness. I think this is what Pope Francis is looking for and what a lot of people trying to live what are often difficult lives are looking for too.
It is good to have a pope around who more represents the Jesus who was criticised for the company he kept and who stood up for those who were condemned for not living up to the letter of the law.
Many people will be very excited about what, so far, seems the inclusiveness of this new pope which points to the reality of how excluded they have felt for so long.

lmaopml

Ambersky, Pope Francis is not a 'revolutionary' - he is simply a person who recognises that there are people who struggle but deeply want to know Christ better.

I have a gay brother in law who is probably more Catholic than I am - he is seeking the face of God and struggling, and his struggle taught me to recognise that mine should not be insincere but sincere, warts and all it never stops this search for God, this love of knowing Jesus Christ is paramount and all consuming. Strange as it may sound - it's never ever old!

The Pope cannot change what 'sin' is, but I think it's most welcome that we all count ourselves among sinners - the very same.

The measure we use is rather silly, because it will be measured against us.

This Pope is concentrating on our journey together to seek God, and not the worst of sins we commit - because anybody who seeks Christ does it eventually on their knees, and that is the people of God. A Pastor is one who speaks wisdom and also follows Christ with and among everybody else who hears.

Ambersky

lmaopml
Ambersky, Pope Francis is not a 'revolutionary'

Maybe not and maybe so lmaopml that remains to be seen. Neither of us knows what we are dealing with yet in this new Pope. He is surprising lots of people more in the know than either of us.

The Catholic Church could fall ‘like a house of cards’ if it continues in its obsession with abortion, gay marriage and contraception, the pope has warned.

Sounds pretty revolutionary to me having been at the receiving end of that obsession.

Personally I like the revolutionary Jesus, liberation theology, a church of the poor and see that as a very positive thing.
Not everyone sees revolution as a positive but there is a whole train of thought that this is precisely the gospel message.
Even though I would like a church that was an ally and welcomed those marginalised by several decades of conservatism I dont know if the church itself is redeemable at this stage. Again we will see.

I think a lot of people will be very anxious to make sure that they continue the focus on sin. The Pope is saying take your focus off sin, lets take it for granted that we are all sinners as he himself is a sinner, but that may prove very difficult for conservatives to actually do. They may open their arms but will probably want to make sure to still convey the message that they are hugging a sinner. And not in a "we are all sinners and who am I to judge" kind of way, they will be looking for the rules and quotes and dogma to back up the judgements on those marganalised and not really concentrating on their own sinfulness. It will be hard to break the habits of decades and focus instead on the sins of conservatism, the sins of exclusion, the sins of silence ( no one saw or heard anything and anyway we didnt undersand at the time, you know those sins) and the sins of turning a blind eye to the wounded.
Up to now the conservative church has kind of dealt with itself as being sinful in theory but has pointed at those marganalised as sinful in practice.
It may be time to let some of that go if it is genuinely meant that we are all sinners.

Benny_Cake

Ambersky wrote: »

For many people who are good people, living lives working for social justice and reform there has been no place for us in the catholic church. Not only has there been no place, the Catholic church has become our opponent and even our enemy .

There are a great many faithful Catholics who add passionate about social justice, and who see serving the marginalised as integral to their faith. In the Greater scheme of things, the hierarchy has little impact on the day to day business of living a Christian life. I was reading something recently by a person living in a Catholic Worker house in America, it was quite remarkable to read how the Eucharist and daily liturgy went hand in hand with serving the poor and peace activism. I would imagine that such people rarely give the pope or the bishops a second thought.

Francis does seem to be putting poverty front and centre, which is right and proper. Poverty is very much a moral issue, possibly the greatest moral issue.

Festy

He seems like a good man no doubt ( very humble) but after hearing him say that all atheists go to heaven makes me glad not to be Catholic...joke of a religion tbh....

Faith2013

Benny_Cake wrote: »

How is he preventing people from saying what they believe? Anyway, can there be anyone on the face of this planet who isn't aware of the Catholic church's position on abortion, contraception and gay marriage? I think the message is out at this stage.

Exactly.. Everyone knows the Church's stance on these issues, Even yesterday the Pope gave a speech against Abortion (here)

All the Pope is saying is that we should use a different tone, that we should preach not just these issues.

However the Pope is making a lot of Right wing-Conservative Catholics very nervous, They want him of all people to be clear and to hammer home doctrine and not cause a confusion. That is not Pope Francis.

Ambersky

No I dont think I am misunderstanding things. There is going to be a real shake up for the Catholic Church if it is to survive. People who have been happy in the small church are going to need to learn how to be with others who have been excluded and marganalised if they are going to carry out what the Pope seems to be suggesting. Seeing yourselves as merely serving the poor, the marganalised the sinners is not being on an equal footing with them. Its not always the good catholic with something to give, that's still a relationship of dominance, a paternalistic relationship. A real change would be when those who saw themselves serving the poor and marganailised really believed in a relationship of equality. It would happen when catholics who were comfortable in small church realised that those people who have been marganalised have as much to teach them and give them and when they let themselves be open to being changed by them. I think and hope that the Pope wants to work With the poor and marganailised. The whole thing wont fall down if you arent constantly pointing out how sinful the sins of others are and looking for how right you have been all along to judge their sinfulness, their wrongness, look to your own sins.

His stand is far more radical than anything that emerged from Vatican Two. He says not all doctrines are of equal importance. He objects to the obsession with abortion, gay marriage and contraception.
And he says the church is not a "small chapel" for the select few. Unless it changes, "the moral edifice of the church is likely to fall like a house of cards".
Statements like these are not merely amazing. They are revolutionary. They can reasonably compare with the turmoil of religious – and political – thought that gave the world Martin Luther and the Protestant Reformation in the 16th Century. But the world we now live in is a different world from that of Luther.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/james-downey-all-the-signs-are-there-pope-francis-could-lead-catholic-reformation-29595142.html

Previous posters may be right though it may be a case of same old same old but with a nicer face. The Catholic Church may remain as dogmatic and closed to the lives of many people leading good lives but in a reality many conservatives have not had to face. Maybe the Pope is just being a nice man and asking us to be nicer with each other without any real changes. Thats what many over in A+A think, so maybe those with the view that its just a different tone finally agree with those over in that forum on one thing at least.
Those of us who have been marganalised by the church will see through and will not be happy with someone saying the same old things but in a different tone, of course not. I know a simple change in tone would be a little disconcerting but reassuring to conservatives. The Pope however seems aware that the church could fall unless it changes and that would require real change not just a change in tone.

...........Let us see now if Fr Hoban's colleagues who have been silenced by the Vatican have their rights restored. And let us see if the Pope's wise words attract an audience willing not only to hear them, but to act on them. If that happens, it will effect fundamental changes for the better, not only in the church, but throughout society;

lmaopml

Manach wrote: »

I'm very much tending to Scidive's point of view.
However, this in the truest sense of a word a challenge, to reflect on Church teaching and social matters in light of the Pope's pronouncement and not act in a way that is based on my own personal biases.

I love this! That is exactly it - acting on a personal bias is so very easy - Unity requires not acting on a personal bias, but trusting and trying to understand too, and it's a real virtue to 'trust'.

Recently the Pope said that a nation that writes off it's old people forgets it's memory - and one that writes off it's young people writes off it's future - The Church does neither, she is always old and always young, so long as we 'trust' that we're not in control. We know that life is a pilgrimage, and we're part of a pilgrim Church, not exactly of this world, but very involved in it day by day.

Ambersky

lmaopml I am moved by your reminder that we need to trust that we are not in control. I think there has been a liberal conservative divide in the catholic church for some decades now, with conservatives appearing to be in control and liberals sidelined or silenced. I will leave it up to you to decide whether all of this was the will of God or not. I think it is more in the conservative mind set to need to feel the security of control and to find stability in that however it is important to understand that there are problems inherent in that particularly at the more right of centre style of conservatism .

James Rizor said We are in an era where we need to be part conservative for resilience and part liberal for sustainable change

It wouldn't help if liberals started to take over completely and silence conservatives .
If the catholic church is to survive it will need both conservatives and liberals in my opinion.
Whatever happens and that includes whatever happens socially and politically it would help if we learned how to listen to and understand one another better.
It is in this spirit that I am contributing and maybe if people continue to do this we might get a better understanding of why we need both liberal and conservative thought.

scidive

Not all clergy take the view of Francis has that the church is obsessed with moral issues in fact they take the opposite view in that the church is not speaking enough about these issues. For one Bishop Robert Vasa of Santa Rosa, Calif. says he has not seen evidence of such an obsession.

“I certainly do know that there are individuals, and I certainly would probably be among them, who firmly believe that these are core cultural issues about which we must be vocal,” the prelate told the Press Democrat on Friday. “But I’m not obsessed about them. A vast majority of the things that I write do not include abortion as a topic or contraception or divorce and remarriage. There’s a vast majority of people who never talk about it,” he continued.

Bishop Vasa’s assessment is along the same lines as that made by Cardinal Raymond Burke, the head of the Vatican’s Apostolic Signatura and America’s most senior prelate, in an interview this summer months before the Pope’s interview was published.
The Cardinal told Minneapolis’ The Catholic Servant that the Church has not been nearly outspoken enough on controversial issues like homosexuality. He said there’s been “a failure of catechesis both of children and young people that has been going on for fifty years.”
“It is being addressed, but it needs much more radical attention,” he continued. “There is far too much silence — people do not want to talk about it because the topic is not ‘politically correct.’ But we cannot be silent any longer or we will find ourselves in a situation that will be very difficult to reverse.”