Tenant wants to be back when surveyor accessing unit

yoginindublin

Hi! I have a question. We have already paid a deposit on an apartment unit that we are buying. We are very near closing (i have the mortage in the bank approved, my solicitor has reviewed the contract for sale and has a closing date on it) We had planned to have the unit surveyed this week. Early last week, my agent sent an email to the tenants about my surveyor accessing the unit and he got a reply a week later from the tenant saying that they are out on holidays and prefer to be back when we access the unit (apparently they have a lot of valuables that are out). My agent sent another email asking for when they will be back and its been a few days without any reply from them. The agent tells me that if they become difficult we can access the unit with the permission of the owner. Anyone have any opinion on this? Is this allowed? What if they don't want to move out?

djimi

No its not allowed. The tenant is perfectly entitled to be there when you are looking around their home, and neither you or the landlord are allowed to enter the property without prearranged permission from the tenant.

mickyellow

This has very little to do with the tenant. The owner simply has to notify them that he and the prospective new owners are coming around to check thing over. In my lease agreements I have to give the tenant 24 hours notice for a visit such as this and I've never run into any problems.

There could be another deeper issue here with the tenant not too keen on moving out.........and thus being difficult.

listermint

mickyellow wrote: »

This has very little to do with the tenant. The owner simply has to notify them that he and the prospective new owners are coming around to check thing over. In my lease agreements I have to give the tenant 24 hours notice for a visit such as this and I've never run into any problems.

There could be another deeper issue here with the tenant not too keen on moving out.........and thus being difficult.

You are wrong.

djimi

mickyellow wrote: »

This has very little to do with the tenant. The owner simply has to notify them that he and the prospective new owners are coming around to check thing over. In my lease agreements I have to give the tenant 24 hours notice for a visit such as this and I've never run into any problems.

There could be another deeper issue here with the tenant not too keen on moving out.........and thus being difficult.

As a landlord you are not permitted to enter the property without the consent of the tenant. Your lease can say whatever it likes; legally you have no right to tell a tenant when you will be showing up at their door, and you have absolutely no right to enter the property unless they are there to let you in or it is an absolute emergency.

L1011

mickyellow wrote: »

In my lease agreements I have to give the tenant 24 hours notice for a visit such as this and I've never run into any problems.

That clause has no legal validity

drumswan

mickyellow wrote: »

This has very little to do with the tenant. The owner simply has to notify them that he and the prospective new owners are coming around to check thing over. In my lease agreements I have to give the tenant 24 hours notice for a visit such as this and I've never run into any problems.

There could be another deeper issue here with the tenant not too keen on moving out.........and thus being difficult.

Good grief.

D3PO

another cowboy landlord that doesn't know the law.

Santa Cruz

djimi wrote: »

No its not allowed. The tenant is perfectly entitled to be there when you are looking around their home, and neither you or the landlord are allowed to enter the property without prearranged permission from the tenant.

That is incorrect. While this is not an emergency the landlord does have reason to enter and has a right to enter. Reasonable efforts have been made to get agreement from the tenants.
I would recommend that if entry is made that it is not made unaccompanied and that no one is allowed to remain there unaccompanied.

yoginindublin

My agent who is acting on behalf of the landlord told me that the tenants asked was a 24 hour notice on when we will need access to the unit. We are supposed to meet today, 19/09 and the agent sent them the email about today's access on the 11th of September. The agent told me that the tenants were usually very cooperative but this time they were firm in saying that they didnt want anyone there without them. What about the rights of the landlord who is selling the unit?

djimi

Santa Cruz wrote: »

That is incorrect. While this is not an emergency the landlord does have reason to enter and has a right to enter. Reasonable efforts have been made to get agreement from the tenants.
I would recommend that if entry is made that it is not made unaccompanied and that no one is allowed to remain there unaccompanied.

The landlord cannot just show up and enter whenever they want, just because they feel they have reason to do so. If the tenant says no then that has to be respected. The tenant is not being unreasonable; if they are out of the country then its tough luck to the landlord, who may wait until they return.

djimi

yoginindublin wrote: »

My agent who is acting on behalf of the landlord told me that the tenants asked was a 24 hour notice on when we will need access to the unit. We are supposed to meet today, 19/09 and the agent sent them the email about today's access on the 11th of September. The agent told me that the tenants were usually very cooperative but this time they were firm in saying that they didnt want anyone there without them. What about the rights of the landlord who is selling the unit?

When are the tenants back in the country? Can you not just wait until they are home? Its not their fault that you booked the survey without agreeing a suitable time with them, after all.

mickyellow

mickyellow wrote: »

This has very little to do with the tenant. The owner simply has to notify them that he and the prospective new owners are coming around to check thing over. In my lease agreements I have to give the tenant 24 hours notice for a visit such as this and I've never run into any problems.

There could be another deeper issue here with the tenant not too keen on moving out.........and thus being difficult.

I simply stated above that I give the tenant 24 hours notice if I'm calling around. The tenant (and in some cases) has said no to me. I'm do this purely out of common courtesy and I'm not a landlord that rocks up without permission.

In the past i feel that common courtesy goes a long way and if the tenant isn't available of the timing isn't right we can arrange at a later date.

downwithit

A landlord must serve the property a notice 7 days in advance of entering, the tenant may choose to be in attendance but may not refuse the request with this correct written notice. This can be shortened to 24 hours in the case of an emergency. I do not believe a survey is considered an emergency.

L1011

mickyellow wrote: »

I simply stated above that I give the tenant 24 hours notice if I'm calling around.

No, you "simply stated" you'd put an illegal clause in a contact.

D3PO

I cant see the rush to get the survey done anyway. You wont be able to draw down your mortgage without vacant possession so why not wait until the tenants are gone anyway.

Assuming the seller isn't an idiot they will have issued notice to quit to the tenants. Surely you can wait until the vacate the property anyway.

D3PO

downwithit wrote: »

A landlord must serve the property a notice 7 days in advance of entering, the tenant may choose to be in attendance but may not refuse the request with this correct written notice. This can be shortened to 24 hours in the case of an emergency. I do not believe a survey is considered an emergency.

Sorry but this is totally incorrect. There is no law to allow a LL to enter a property with 7 days notice. The amount of misinformation and nonsense that gets spread on this forum at times is incredulous.

mathepac

D3PO wrote: »

another cowboy landlord that doesn't know the law.

And yet another cowboy EA who doesn't either. It all boils down to what is "agreed between the parties" in a non-emergency situation; this may include lease conditions.

http://www.threshold.ie/advice/tenancy-issues/entry-without-permission/

"Entry [by the landlord / agent / others] without permission is a breach of obligations and if this happens repeatedly you [tenant] can refer a dispute against the landlord to the Private Residential Tenancies Board (PRTB)"

djimi

I think that this is the part of the RTA 2004 that covers it:

(c) allow, at reasonable intervals, the landlord, or any person or persons acting on the landlord's behalf, access to the dwelling (on a date and time agreed in advance with the tenant) for the purposes of inspecting the dwelling,

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2004/en/act/pub/0027/sec0016.html

The key part is "on a date and time agreed in advance with the tenant". It doesnt specify what they time frame is.

downwithit

From the attached link you will find:

"There is no legal minimum period of notice that has to be given e.g. 24 hours. It is a matter of what is agreed between both you and your landlord/agent."

This is generally established as seven days in a standard lease agreement, which you agree to on signing your lease agreement

D3PO

downwithit wrote: »

From the attached link you will find:

"There is no legal minimum period of notice that has to be given e.g. 24 hours. It is a matter of what is agreed between both you and your landlord/agent."

This is generally established as seven days in a standard lease agreement, which you agree to on signing your lease agreement

You cannot sign away your rights in a lease agreement. As the RTA says its on a date and time agreed by the tenant that makes any 7 day clause invalid.

The tenant in this case does not agree to the LL entering the property. Doesn't matter what the lease says the fact is the LL has no right to enter in that regard until the tenant does agree to it.

djimi

downwithit wrote: »

From the attached link you will find:

"There is no legal minimum period of notice that has to be given e.g. 24 hours. It is a matter of what is agreed between both you and your landlord/agent."

This is generally established as seven days in a standard lease agreement, which you agree to on signing your lease agreement

The key is what is agreed between tenant and landlord. The landlord cannot tell the tenant what time they will be there, and no amount of "minimum notice" changes that.

Santa Cruz

Did you not get a call from someone in the building that they smelled gas coming from the apartment or that there may be a leak?
Best check it out in case there is damage being caused by water or God forbid, a gas explosion.

yoginindublin

djimi wrote: »

When are the tenants back in the country? Can you not just wait until they are home? Its not their fault that you booked the survey without agreeing a suitable time with them, after all.

I actually informed the agent and the agent informed them a week ago and got no response until a day before we were supposed to do a survey the tenant says no. What if the tenant continues to make it difficult to access the unit. The agent has sent 3 emails already asking on when they can access the space and they have not been responsive.

djimi

Santa Cruz wrote: »

Did you not get a call from someone in the building that they smelled gas coming from the apartment or that there may be a leak?
Best check it out in case there is damage being caused by water or God forbid, a gas explosion.

And a surveyor is required to be in attendance for this because...?

The tenants arent stupid you know.

djimi

yoginindublin wrote: »

I actually informed the agent and the agent informed them a week ago and got no response until a day before we were supposed to do a survey the tenant says no. What if the tenant continues to make it difficult to access the unit. The agent has sent 3 emails already asking on when they can access the space and they have not been responsive.

How long have they been out of the country for? Its quite likely that they are not picking up their emails (I certainly wouldnt if I was abroad).

They have to allow access at some point, but Im assuming they are not going to out of the country indefinitely? Assuming they are not planning on being abroad for a matter of months, I dont really see how you have any choice but to await their return.

beauf

yoginindublin wrote: »

I actually informed the agent and the agent informed them a week ago and got no response until a day before we were supposed to do a survey the tenant says no. What if the tenant continues to make it difficult to access the unit. The agent has sent 3 emails already asking on when they can access the space and they have not been responsive.

Maybe they are away for 2 or 3 weeks.

Maybe the email didn't get through.

Do they not have a phone number?

djimi

Have the tenants been issued with a termination notice on the basis of the property being sold? If so, would it not be easier just to wait until they have vacated?

Victor

mickyellow wrote: »

In my lease agreements I have to give the tenant 24 hours notice for a visit such as this and I've never run into any problems.

Not bashing.

This is a restriction imposed on the landlord, not an entitlement given to them.

Santa Cruz wrote: »

Did you not get a call from someone in the building that they smelled gas coming from the apartment or that there may be a leak?
Best check it out in case there is damage being caused by water or God forbid, a gas explosion.

In which case you should contact the emergency services and evacuate the building and let potential purchasers know there might be gas problems.

Please do not advocate illegal entry.

Moderator

ABajaninCork

Can the EA not put a note through the door, inviting the tenant to call to make a mutually convenient appointment?

lilymc

You have to give the tenant notice before you enter, our apartment in Dublin city would be inspected when we were at work, we were given due notice and didn't mind. In this case as they have specified that they wish to be there they may have some grounds for dispute as they have specified that they only wanted it inspected with them there.

Yawns

The EA hsa been in touch with the tenants and they have said no. No one in without them while they are away on holiday. It's a perfectly valid reason they have and it should be respected.

I wouldn't be happy with my LL or his EA if they didn't respect my decision while I was away on holiday. If I got back and found they went ahead with it, I'd make a complaint about the LL to PRTB and become quite difficult and unaccommodating towards the prospective buyers. You need a vacant property to drawn down a mortgage these days.

SpaceTime

The other issue is that if you enter the premises without permission and something goes missing or is alleged to have gone missing, you could find yourself on the wrong end of a burglary investigation.

djimi

Another question worth asking is how many other times recently has the tenant granted you or the agent/landlord access to the property in relation to the sale? You need to bear in mind that they are not obliged to go out of their way to facilitate things like multiple viewings/inspections, and only must grant access for inspections at "reasonable intervels" (ie once every few months). Ultimately it is still their home for the duration of the tenancy, and the most fundemental right afforded to the tenant is the right to expect peaceful enjoyment of the tenancy. This right is not to be overlooked just because the landlord wishes to sell the property.

downwithit

See what they have agreed to in the lease agreement, serve the required notice and enter.

Yawns

downwithit wrote: »

See what they have agreed to in the lease agreement, serve the required notice and enter.

Just lol

Some people just don't get it. You can write what you like into a lease but you cannot expect it to hold water if it signs away rights of a tenant. The LL can have an inspection if he likes every once in a while but he can't just say I don't like your answer, I'm coming in anyway. It needs to be agreed and in this case, the tenant has not agreed to a visit whilst they are not there.

The tenants are being perfectly reasonable here. How would you feel if you said no visit while you were away on holiday, then came home and found out they did it anyway. You'd be livid. I ****ing would.

Is it gonna be that difficult to wait til the tenant comes home and then get the surveyor in? After all you arranged a date for it without the tenants being asked in the first place.

Clive

yoginindublin wrote: »

Hi! I have a question. We have already paid a deposit on an apartment unit that we are buying. We are very near closing (i have the mortage in the bank approved, my solicitor has reviewed the contract for sale and has a closing date on it) We had planned to have the unit surveyed this week. Early last week, my agent sent an email to the tenants about my surveyor accessing the unit and he got a reply a week later from the tenant saying that they are out on holidays and prefer to be back when we access the unit (apparently they have a lot of valuables that are out). My agent sent another email asking for when they will be back and its been a few days without any reply from them. The agent tells me that if they become difficult we can access the unit with the permission of the owner. Anyone have any opinion on this? Is this allowed? What if they don't want to move out?

OP as has been stated, a landlord cannot enter a property (outside of an emergency) without agreeing this with the tenant. Anything written into a lease cannot reduce this right for the tenant. Your estate agent is either just wrong or lying to you - now at least you can deal with them on that basis.

While you may feel aggreived that the tenant is refusing permission at the last minute as you see it - look at it from their point of view. They are granting you access to their home and all they are asking is to be there. They are on holidays presumably amd don't need to jump for an estate agent who may or may not have asked their permission with as much notice as claimed. Waiting a few days for a reply when someone is abroad is prefectly reasonable.

Bear in mind that they are required to allow the landlord's agents access (at an agreed time) but that does not mean you and your surveyor. The tenants would be perfectly within their rights to never grant you access while they are in tenancy.

I presume they've been accomodating so far, so give them the same courtesy.

Marcusm

Santa Cruz wrote: »

That is incorrect. While this is not an emergency the landlord does have reason to enter and has a right to enter. Reasonable efforts have been made to get agreement from the tenants.
I would recommend that if entry is made that it is not made unaccompanied and that no one is allowed to remain there unaccompanied.

THe landlord will have a right to enter to inspect the property. This does not extend those rights to a person entering on behalf of a third party (prospective purchaser).

foggy_lad

Santa Cruz wrote: »

Did you not get a call from someone in the building that they smelled gas coming from the apartment or that there may be a leak?
Best check it out in case there is damage being caused by water or God forbid, a gas explosion.

If you smelled gas then entering the property without the fire brigade and Gardai present would be the last thing I would do and even then the surveyor would most likely not be allowed in by the Gardai.

yoginindublin wrote: »

I actually informed the agent and the agent informed them a week ago and got no response until a day before we were supposed to do a survey the tenant says no. What if the tenant continues to make it difficult to access the unit. The agent has sent 3 emails already asking on when they can access the space and they have not been responsive.

Agents, especially rental agents are the biggest cowboys and spoofers going! they will say whatever gets the job done as it won't ever fall back on them! The agents probably only informed the tenants the day before the survey, if so then no surprise that they said no!

lilymc wrote: »

You have to give the tenant notice before you enter, our apartment in Dublin city would be inspected when we were at work, we were given due notice and didn't mind. In this case as they have specified that they wish to be there they may have some grounds for dispute as they have specified that they only wanted it inspected with them there.

Your LL has to give the tenant notice before they call to the door! if they want to enter for any reason then the time and date must be agreed between the LL and tenant!

Marcusm wrote: »

The landlord will have a right to enter to inspect the property. This does not extend those rights to a person entering on behalf of a third party (prospective purchaser).

Only with agreement with the tenant, AFAIK If there is no response from the tenant for a number of weeks then the landlord must post a notice in a prominent position or on the door giving notice that they will enter in 7 days whether the tenant is there or not.

Santa Cruz

djimi wrote: »

And a surveyor is required to be in attendance for this because...?

The tenants arent stupid you know.

They mightn't be stupid but they are not there either. The gas smell went subsequently. Use your cop on.

beauf

If they claim something is missing what then...

They already been sent a request that the LL wants to enter.

djimi

Santa Cruz wrote: »

They mightn't be stupid but they are not there either. The gas smell went subsequently. Use your cop on.

Its not as simply as saying "oh I smell gas; Ill just let myself in an sure my surveyor friend here can have a look around while Im at it". When the tenant gets wind of the fact that the surveyor was also in the property they will (quite rightly) take the landlord to the cleaners.

Santa Cruz

beauf wrote: »

If they claim something is missing what then...

They already been sent a request that the LL wants to enter.

That's why you go in accompanied. Its their word against yours.

Santa Cruz

djimi wrote: »

Its not as simply as saying "oh I smell gas; Ill just let myself in an sure my surveyor friend here can have a look around while Im at it". When the tenant gets wind of the fact that the surveyor was also in the property they will (quite rightly) take the landlord to the cleaners.

Have you ever dealt with the PRTB? They have too much on their plate to be entertaining rubbish complaints like this.

djimi

Santa Cruz wrote: »

Have you ever dealt with the PRTB? They have too much on their plate to be entertaining rubbish complaints like this.

If the tenant has to wait a year to get their judgement then what of it? The case will be heard eventually. I wouldnt mind waiting a few months/a year for a nice little cash windfall from a prick of a landlord who walked all over my legal rights.

ABajaninCork

If he pays...

TheBandicoot

yoginindublin wrote: »

My agent who is acting on behalf of the landlord told me that the tenants asked was a 24 hour notice on when we will need access to the unit. We are supposed to meet today, 19/09 and the agent sent them the email about today's access on the 11th of September. The agent told me that the tenants were usually very cooperative but this time they were firm in saying that they didnt want anyone there without them. What about the rights of the landlord who is selling the unit?

How would you feel about a bunch of strangers entering your home while you're on holiday and poking around? Things do happen, a friend 'lost' a laptop when the landlord organised viewings of his place, he had to get the Gardai involved.

drumswan

Santa Cruz wrote: »

That's why you go in accompanied. Its their word against yours.

Are you seriously advocating breaking the law to gain a minor convenience?

Worst case the tenant could turn on the landlord, refuse to vacate and ruin the sale here. And for what? Because he hadnt the patience to wait for a reasonable time to enter the premises as per the law.

I routinely set up cheap webcams at the entrance of any rented properties I take here due to cowboy landlords like yourself.

TheBandicoot

yoginindublin wrote: »

What if the tenant continues to make it difficult to access the unit.

It's their home, not a 'unit'. They have the right to peaceful enjoyment of it.

yoginindublin wrote: »

The agent has sent 3 emails already asking on when they can access the space and they have not been responsive.

Because they're on holidays for god's sake.

Potatoeman

Why did you book it if they had not agreed? If they already ageed to viewings they have already put themselves out.