St Marys renomvations

femur61

Read that the renovations to St Marys will be in the region of €12 million, new roof, renovation inside, wall out side etc. Heard they are now asking parishioners to donate towards costs This is scandalous if its true not been there many times myself but the church was full of old age pensioners who looked like they hadn't two cent to their name.

Rantan

femur61 wrote: »

Read that the renovations to St Marys will be in the region of €12 million, new roof, renovation inside, wall out side etc. Heard they are now asking parishioners to donate towards costs This is scandalous if its true not been there many times myself but the church was full of old age pensioners who looked like they hadn't two cent to their name.

If the parishioners want to donate i suppose thats their choice in the end. No-one is going to force them....the money has to come from somewhere. Easy to say the catholic church is full of money..but thats not going to last long if every church and cathedral in the world puts the hand out for renovations...
Im not relligious by the way..just dont think its fair to have a go..

road_high

Long as not a penny of taxpayers money goes towrds a private church then i don't see a problem.
It's also a tourist attraction in KK. See they have even opened a tea room now which is a good idea.

femur61

They agree an extortionate amount of money to have renovations start the work then I think its a bit Irish telling them the parishioners are have to pay for it if they want it completed - guilt ! They have to give their money for work which most of them will never live to see finished.

linny

is this not the church just off the high street between goods and sub way, don't think it has anything to do with the church anymore it belongs to the council and is to be turned into a museum http://www.kilkennycity.ie/eng/RSS_LatestNewsAndAnnouncements/St-Mary-s-Church-St-Mary-s-Hall-.6089.shortcut.html

femur61

linny wrote: »

is this not the church just off the high street between goods and sub way, don't think it has anything to do with the church anymore it belongs to the council and is to be turned into a museum http://www.kilkennycity.ie/eng/RSS_LatestNewsAndAnnouncements/St-Mary-s-Church-St-Mary-s-Hall-.6089.shortcut.html

No its the church St Marys I am referring too is on James Street beside the CBS Secondary school.

I think if they don't get the money it will be up to the public to foot the bill as it is a real tourist attraction, its a cathedral.

road_high

That was a former Chruch of Ireland I think. Not sure what input the church have into it anymore though, have an inkling they may donated it to the Council. It's a lovely old building to be fair.

catbear

If it's Marys Church behind the townhall then it's massive part of Kilkenny history, the site going back at least to the establishment of the castle. There are vaults underneath that whole area, the current church is a remodeling and expansion of a much older church, some of that structure is contained within the current building.

It is part of the medieval urban environment and as far as I'm concerned it has great potential to enhance kilkenny's cultural experience for both locals and visitors.

femur61

catbear wrote: »

If it's Marys Church behind the townhall then it's massive part of Kilkenny history, the site going back at least to the establishment of the castle. There are vaults underneath that whole area, the current church is a remodeling and expansion of a much older church, some of that structure is contained within the current building.

It is part of the medieval urban environment and as far as I'm concerned it has great potential to enhance kilkenny's cultural experience for both locals and visitors.

No, I am talking about the church on James Street beside CBS secondary school yes history as well it was built during the famine.

Threadhead

Just to clarify:

St. Mary's Cathedral - James Street, recently renovated to improve access and with a new cafe/tea room.

St. Mary's Church - Off Coffin Lane, across from Goods, due to be renovated as a local heritage centre and museum.

Hope that clears up the confusion.

Rantan

catbear wrote: »

If it's Marys Church behind the townhall then it's massive part of Kilkenny history, the site going back at least to the establishment of the castle. There are vaults underneath that whole area, the current church is a remodeling and expansion of a much older church, some of that structure is contained within the current building.

It is part of the medieval urban environment and as far as I'm concerned it has great potential to enhance kilkenny's cultural experience for both locals and visitors.

totally agree...kilkenny has missed so many opportunites in this area that it makes me sad! however I think OP is taking abouit Mary's Cathedral on James st??

Yeah..f**k it let the buiding fall down:rolleyes:..pesky church..meddling in our affairs..while we're at it, maybe we should just demolish the Rock of Cashel, Skeilig Michil, Christ Church Cathedral, while we're at it...notre Dame in Paris, Chartres Cathedral, etc etc;)

femur61

Rantan wrote: »

totally agree...kilkenny has missed so many opportunites in this area that it makes me sad! however I think OP is taking abouit Mary's Cathedral on James st??

Yeah..f**k it let the buiding fall down:rolleyes:..pesky church..meddling in our affairs..while we're at it, maybe we should just demolish the Rock of Cashel, Skeilig Michil, Christ Church Cathedral, while we're at it...notre Dame in Paris, Chartres Cathedral, etc etc;)

Then why if we all agree that it should be done then why should it be left on the parishioners of a parish if everyone the city is going to benefit from the influx of tourists.

Cycled past it this evening and saw the builder doing the renovations was on a list in the Irish Independent last year as a tax defaulter over a million. Another thing that is not right.

catbear

femur61 wrote: »

Cycled past it this evening and saw the builder doing the renovations was on a list in the Irish Independent last year as a tax defaulter over a million. Another thing that is not right.

What would you have preferred? That the business be shut down, more people put on the dole and the tax remain unpaid? If we followed your feeling then the Irish state shouldn't have received a bailout.

There is a major difference between the Marys Church and Mary Cathedral redevelopments. Mary's church, like the castle, is now pubic property so cost and benefit goes totally to the general public, it will be a public amenity.

Whereas Mary's Cathedral is still property of a non state entity, the Roman Catholic Church and as such the general public has no control over general access. Millions of Irish tax could be spent on it but if there's a serious disagreement between the RCC and the Irish Republic then the RCC are completely within their rights to restrict access to active members only. For that reason the Cathedral should not be counted upon as a tourist attraction.

It is my feeling some heritage funding be available but ultimately the bulk of the funding should come from tax payers who tick RCC on their census forms.

Cabaal

catbear wrote: »

Whereas Mary's Cathedral is still property of a non state entity, the Roman Catholic Church and as such the general public has no control over general access. Millions of Irish tax could be spent on it but if there's a serious disagreement between the RCC and the Irish Republic then the RCC are completely within their rights to restrict access to active members only. For that reason the Cathedral should not be counted upon as a tourist attraction.

It is my feeling some heritage funding be available but ultimately the bulk of the funding should come from tax payers who tick RCC on their census forms.

I think we should follow Germany in this regard, if you are catholic you pay a tax and this goes to the church (not 100% clear on where money goes).

Lets see how many people tick the catholic box then

If any tax payers money goes towards any privately owned church then its wrong on so many levels,

Rantan

catbear wrote: »

What would you have preferred? That the business be shut down, more people put on the dole and the tax remain unpaid? If we followed your feeling then the Irish state shouldn't have received a bailout.

There is a major difference between the Marys Church and Mary Cathedral redevelopments. Mary's church, like the castle, is now pubic property so cost and benefit goes totally to the general public, it will be a public amenity.

Whereas Mary's Cathedral is still property of a non state entity, the Roman Catholic Church and as such the general public has no control over general access. Millions of Irish tax could be spent on it but if there's a serious disagreement between the RCC and the Irish Republic then the RCC are completely within their rights to restrict access to active members only. For that reason the Cathedral should not be counted upon as a tourist attraction.

It is my feeling some heritage funding be available but ultimately the bulk of the funding should come from tax payers who tick RCC on their census forms.

nicely summed up!!

Captain Havoc

Cabaal wrote: »

I think we should follow Germany in this regard, if you are catholic you pay a tax and this goes to the church (not 100% clear on where money goes).

Lets see how many people tick the catholic box then

If any tax payers money goes towards any privately owned church then its wrong on so many levels,

When I lived in Switzerland, I ticked the catholic box (same thing, tax to church) and I don't think I set foot in it. I think the churches (all religions) should have funding as it still serves a purpose to the community. How many non-church funerals are there? How many non-church weddings are there? Not too many of either, although I'd say non-church weddings have gone up a good bit. How many baptisms are there? Whether they're being done to show face or not is irrelevant, the churches are still being used.

Rantan

despite ourselves and our new found bile for the Catholic Church - we still expect them to bring us into and take us out of this world free of charge!!

I feel really sorry for the hard working decent priests and nuns who go about their business of generally helping an awful lot of non believers(me incl) sort out their births, deaths and marriages and a lot inbetween - and still manage to get more abuse than even a kind word in return!!

catbear

Captain Havoc wrote: »

When I lived in Switzerland, I ticked the catholic box (same thing, tax to church) and I don't think I set foot in it. I think the churches (all religions) should have funding as it still serves a purpose to the community. How many non-church funerals are there? How many non-church weddings are there? Not too many of either, although I'd say non-church weddings have gone up a good bit. How many baptisms are there? Whether they're being done to show face or not is irrelevant, the churches are still being used.

I didn't get married in a church and i've a a funeral director friend who says that civil funerals are increasing in popularity.
When the current generation of grey heads that fill pews shuffle off their mortal coil i think traditional RCC ceremony will yield to more personal memorials.

femur61

Rantan wrote: »

despite ourselves and our new found bile for the Catholic Church - we still expect them to bring us into and take us out of this world free of charge!!

I feel really sorry for the hard working decent priests and nuns who go about their business of generally helping an awful lot of non believers(me incl) sort out their births, deaths and marriages and a lot inbetween - and still manage to get more abuse than even a kind word in return!!

We are discussing the €12 million to do up the church when places like Crumlin children hospital , people are homeless on the streets, how many suicides have there been this week in Kilkenny not Ireland just Kilkenny. I think there are more worthy services that €12 million could be spent, I am not saying not to do it up but it is fairly expensive to sit in an few hours over your life.

A lot of catholic countries don't have the same ornate structures we have - why do need to spend €12 million to pray?

Rantan

femur61 wrote: »

We are discussing the €12 million to do up the church when places like Crumlin children hospital , people are homeless on the streets, how many suicides have there been this week in Kilkenny not Ireland just Kilkenny. I think there are more worthy services that €12 million could be spent, I am not saying not to do it up but it is fairly expensive to sit in an few hours over your life.

A lot of catholic countries don't have the same ornate structures we have - why do need to spend €12 million to pray?

I agree with you..but how much have you spent to date on the St Mary;s restoration fund? Im guessing zero..I assume you have decided you would rather spend your money elsewhere - as is your right - and are not a mass-goer or parishioner in Marys parish -
so if other people decide to spend their money on restoring Marys is that not their choice and their business?
What would suggest should happen to the building in the meantime?

catbear

Rantan wrote: »

What would suggest should happen to the building in the meantime?

That's the responsibility of the RCC and its supporters, not secular society. If the RCC wanted to transfer ownership of the building to the state and then rent it from the state with conditions for general access then that would be somewhat productive.
The truth is though as cathedrals go Marys is actually not very interesting. Canices on the other is amazing and is my favorite building in kilkenny; if those stones could talk!

Rantan

catbear wrote: »

That's the responsibility of the RCC and its supporters, not secular society. If the RCC wanted to transfer ownership of the building to the state and then rent it from the state with conditions for general access then that would be somewhat productive.
The truth is though as cathedrals go Marys is actually not very interesting. Canices on the other is amazing and is my favorite building in kilkenny; if those stones could talk!

would the state not be the ones responsible for the upkeep and thus the taxpayer liable for the 12million bill for renovations! there'd be some riot around here if that happened!
I like is as a building...always loved the stories as a kid of the blindfolded horses carting the stones for the spire up the ramp

femur61

I just can't get my head around the country is suffering and people yes they can do what they like with their own money but whats more important a stone or peoples well being. Unless maybe some of the responders are working on the building and benefiting from a wage- sorry don't get it.

Cabaal

Captain Havoc wrote: »

When I lived in Switzerland, I ticked the catholic box (same thing, tax to church) and I don't think I set foot in it. I think the churches (all religions) should have funding as it still serves a purpose to the community.

How many non-church funerals are there? How many non-church weddings are there? Not too many of either, although I'd say non-church weddings have gone up a good bit. How many baptisms are there? Whether they're being done to show face or not is irrelevant, the churches are still being used.

Non church events are on the increase, as the years are going by many people (myself included) want less and less to do with the catholic church,

There will be no church involved for any kids i have and this is something myself and the mrs have discussed, same goes for when I die.

Alot of people baptize their kids these days merely to ensure they can get a school place or because "its the done thing", the don't actually follow in the church rules so they a while they might believe in a god they are more christian then catholic.

Expecting the government to fund a church's redevelopment goes against separation of church and state. Also would you be so quick to suggest that other faiths also receive such funding?

Also uses of churchs is at a all time low, less people go to mass now then ever before. Sure if people want to donate whatever money they have to the church or sign up to some sort of church tax i have no problem with this.

But its unreasonable to expect the general tax payer to help out an organization that fails to compensate abuse victims and also fails to properly deal with the people that played parts in abuse coverups....Sean Brady being one example of a person who remains in his position after he helped cover up a case.

RobertKK

I think some don't understand how important a building St Mary's Cathedral is to Kilkenny.

Do people watch things like the Tour de France and you see on TV the name of the church being put up as they go through various towns and cities.
They have some beautiful churches and cathedrals.

These are tourist attractions, we see all the tourists who visit other churches in the city like the Black Abbey and St Canices.

The renovations will give employment. We had a survey in the churches of the diocese about it, but I am sure all the people church bashing here didn't know that.
We were asked if we wanted it done, how much if any we would donate over a five year period.
There was nothing about getting direct state funding, the only other matter in the survey was about funding the retirement of older priests as there is a €100,000 shortfall to provide care for them.

Kilkenny as a county depends on agriculture and tourism as the top two sources of income. St Mary's is a standout building in Kilkenny, we should want it looking at it's best.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kilkenny_Panorama.jpg

Einhard

I fail to see what the OP is getting all irate over. The Cathedral is used by the parishioners, and they are being asked to donate what they can to the renovation. They can decide whether they want to or not. Nobody's forcing them to pay anything. If they use the building, and they want to donate, they can. Simples. What's the big deal?

RobertKK

It is the head church of the diocese of Ossory.

So it will be from all parishes that donations come from, not just from the parishioners of St Marys.
All parishes were surveyed.
I am happy to give some money towards the project.

femur61

Einhard wrote: »

I fail to see what the OP is getting all irate over. The Cathedral is used by the parishioners, and they are being asked to donate what they can to the renovation. They can decide whether they want to or not. Nobody's forcing them to pay anything. If they use the building, and they want to donate, they can. Simples. What's the big deal?

I am not irate over it but perplexed, maybe I am a socialist at heart or just a humanitarian , but there are children denied of hospital beds, Kilkenny is rife with drugs and drink, people are homeless not just in Kilkenny but further afield, I just find it strange people with give money for a few stones and not organisations to improve people lives. Don't say to me maybe they do both people aren't that generous. Sorry, as I said I just can't get my head around that.

RobertKK

femur61 wrote: »

I am not irate over it but perplexed, maybe I am a socialist at heart or just a humanitarian , but there are children denied of hospital beds, Kilkenny is rife with drugs and drink, people are homeless not just in Kilkenny but further afield, I just find it strange people with give money for a few stones and not organisations to improve people lives. Don't say to me maybe they do both people aren't that generous. Sorry, as I said I just can't get my head around that.

When one goes to church we have collections for lots of charities throughout the year. There is also a monthly St Vincent de Paul collection, collection for schools, health groups and my only complaint would be political parties and their church gate collections.

People can do what they want with their money. I don't think we should ignore buildings which are landmarks in our city, when our city depends on tourists, and the better it is for the tourists, the better it is for Kilkenny and it's people. We don't want the place looking rundown.

Churches happen to be tourist attractions, the Cathedral could do with a renovation.

foxcoverteddy

You really won't believe this, my church does not receive one cent funding from any source and I am not complaining, I believe that my situation is unique.
Foxy

catbear

foxcoverteddy wrote: »

You really won't believe this, my church does not receive one cent funding from any source and I am not complaining, I believe that my situation is unique.
Foxy

I presume you mean not one cent from outside your churches congregation, meaning that it's self sufficient.

randylonghorn

road_high wrote: »

Long as not a penny of taxpayers money goes towrds a private church then i don't see a problem.
It's also a tourist attraction in KK. See they have even opened a tea room now which is a good idea.

So if it's a tourist attraction (is it? ... it's a fairly mehhhhh building tbh, especially placed against Canice's) surely that's an argument for state subvention?

#catamongthepigeons

femur61 wrote: »

We are discussing the €12 million to do up the church when places like Crumlin children hospital , people are homeless on the streets, how many suicides have there been this week in Kilkenny not Ireland just Kilkenny. I think there are more worthy services that €12 million could be spent, I am not saying not to do it up but it is fairly expensive to sit in an few hours over your life.

catbear wrote: »

That's the responsibility of the RCC and its supporters, not secular society. If the RCC wanted to transfer ownership of the building to the state and then rent it from the state with conditions for general access then that would be somewhat productive.

Seriously, can I ask where the idea that the state or the taxpayer were paying €12 million to renovate St. Mary's Cathedral came from?

I'm not familiar with the St. Mary's Cathedral project, but some knowledge of such projects in the past would suggest it's very unlikely ... some small few bob under the heading of "preservation of historic building" possibly, and I honestly doubt that Mary's would qualify for much, and the bulk left to the parish and diocese and fundraising ... as has always been the case. And as should be the case.

Or is the confusion between the two different St. Mary's still ongoing in this thread?

foxcoverteddy

I wouldn't worry, it's their age you know, something to do with confusius.
Foxy