New Project (Backend Server & small front ends at TVs)

Johnboy1951

After completing my own HTPC build in a Silverstone case, a friend has asked me to build a system for him with similar specs.
In this case the backend is to be separate, with Sat and DTT tuners, storage for TV recordings, and videos etc, and be capable of streaming to front end devices in 3 or 4 locations concurrently. A max of eight locations (or maybe 7) to be capable of using the system.
He has existing Cat 5 cable going to the TV locations.
Both server and client devices will likely use Openelec, Tvheadend and XBMC.

That is the general outline of the set up.

One of the biggest hurdles for me is choosing a good server case.
I have never had to specify a server case previously, so need some help with this, thanks.
Any info or links to sites discussing the 'whys' of a particular choice would be appreciated.

Generally the other components of the system will follow what I have already built .... TBS dual DTT/quad Sat tuner cards, i3 CPU, 4GB RAM, Motherboard with SATA III and USB 3 and sufficient PCI-e slots for the tuner cards.

The front end devices should be as small and cheap as will operate properly when showing HD sports transmissions .... so the graphics out needs to be reasonable. He likes to be able to see the sliotar clearly
Maybe R-Pi will do, or something close.

Anyway, the initial thing is to source a suitable server case for the purpose.
I suppose I could use an old large case I have here, as it will be hidden in a closet its looks would not matter.

Your thoughts on the project would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Wabbit Ears

For the server can I recommend possibly using a windows based server and DVBlogic and epggrabber

MY reasons are that this will allow you to take the TV to any connected device with full epg using the connect server product.

Also it supports basically any mix of tuners and pretty much any amount which is important as you'd basically be wanting at least 1 sat tuner per connected TV plus spare tuners for recording plus at least one tuner for tablets/laptops.

So a house with 3 tvs youd be wanting 6 sat tuners and possibly one or two DVB-t tuners for saorview channels.

Id also recommend 4 gig or ram plus a gig for each tuner, so 12-16 gigs for a server would be expected.

Server cases re-use of old cases is the way forward.


Raspberry Pi's would do as front ends or any small Linux based box running xbmc.

Johnboy1951

Wabbit Ears,
thanks for your thoughts ... appreciated

No, the server will not be using Windows. It will be Linux based.

MY reasons are that this will allow you to take the TV to any connected device with full epg using the connect server product.

Sorry, but I don't understand this, as I have never heard of 'connect server'.
Presently from my own similar Linux set up I have 14 day EPG and any device on the LAN can connect and view it.
I believe that is what you are describing?

Also it supports basically any mix of tuners and pretty much any amount which is important as you'd basically be wanting at least 1 sat tuner per connected TV plus spare tuners for recording plus at least one tuner for tablets/laptops.

The max number of connected TVs at any one time will be 3 (or four maybe occasionally).
Most of the time it will be two.
So a quad Sat tuner card should suffice ..... and if necessary later an extra card can be added quite simply, provided there is space on the motherboard.

The only thing I would need to watch is that I can access Linux drivers for the tuner cards ..... and that is why I used TBS on my own HTPC.

So a house with 3 tvs youd be wanting 6 sat tuners and possibly one or two DVB-t tuners for saorview channels.

As above I believe quad Sat and dual DTT cards will cover the requirements.
It is not intended to facilitate watching and recording on all TVs concurrently, which would indeed require two tuners per TV.

Id also recommend 4 gig or ram plus a gig for each tuner, so 12-16 gigs for a server would be expected.

This I do not follow at all.
OK, Win might need 4GB ram, but 2GB is way more than sufficient for a Linux server (and sufficient for a Linux Desktop) machine.
What is the extra memory per tuner for?
My present HTPC fires up using about 125MB which rises to about 350MB in full use.

Server cases re-use of old cases is the way forward.

Yes if I have a suitable old case I will use it I think. No point in spending money unnecessarily. It will get rid of junk for me too

Raspberry Pi's would do as front ends or any small Linux based box running xbmc.

I have a Pi so can test it against some Full HD videos and Live HD TV to ensure it is capable of producing an acceptable picture.
In previous tests I had some mixed results, but they might have been caused by network traffic rather than the Pi.

Thanks again for the response ..... if you could address my memory question (ram for tuners) I would appreciate it.

Antigrav

I have pretty much the setup you describe built on an HP Proliant ML110 which you can get for under €400 with an i3 installed. Quite a few people have used the HP MicroServer boxes as well.

The main consideration for this type of setup is getting the server away in a place where the noise is not an issue. You can then put fan-less font ends running openelec around the house. I used both Atom/ION/SSD and R-Pi devices.

I also used Tvheadend and Dual DVB-S2 TBS card on server, plus a WinTV USB DVB-T tuner. Both cards have good Linux driver support.

Johnboy1951

Antigrav wrote: »

I have pretty much the setup you describe built on an HP Proliant ML110 which you can get for under €400 with an i3 installed. Quite a few people have used the HP MicroServer boxes as well.

The main consideration for this type of setup is getting the server away in a place where the noise is not an issue. You can then put fan-less font ends running openelec around the house. I used both Atom/ION/SSD and R-Pi devices.

I also used Tvheadend and Dual DVB-S2 TBS card on server, plus a WinTV USB DVB-T tuner. Both cards have good Linux driver support.

Thank you for the confirmation that what I envisage will work!

Can you comment a bit more on the front ends you used?
Is the R-Pi running Openelec/XBMC good enough for Live HD TV?
Are there any difficulties or problems associated with it?
If not the Pi, what would be your suggested front-end hardware?

What are you running on the server?
A version of Linux?

Have you set up downloading and streaming from the internet on the server?

Sorry for all the questions, but I would appreciate any first-hand experience details, if possible.

Thanks again for responding to this thread.

Remouad

Antigrav wrote: »

I have pretty much the setup you describe built on an HP Proliant ML110 which you can get for under €400 with an i3 installed. Quite a few people have used the HP MicroServer boxes as well.

The main consideration for this type of setup is getting the server away in a place where the noise is not an issue. You can then put fan-less font ends running openelec around the house. I used both Atom/ION/SSD and R-Pi devices.

I also used Tvheadend and Dual DVB-S2 TBS card on server, plus a WinTV USB DVB-T tuner. Both cards have good Linux driver support.

I have pretty much the same setup using the HP Microserver as a backend
There is an offer on these currently so you can pick them up for about €120

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Thank you for the confirmation that what I envisage will work!

Can you comment a bit more on the front ends you used?
Is the R-Pi running Openelec/XBMC good enough for Live HD TV?
Are there any difficulties or problems associated with it?
If not the Pi, what would be your suggested front-end hardware?

What are you running on the server?
A version of Linux?

Have you set up downloading and streaming from the internet on the server?

Sorry for all the questions, but I would appreciate any first-hand experience details, if possible.

Thanks again for responding to this thread.

As far as HD content is concerned it depends on how good your connection to your backend is. I've found that with a bad connection I can still watch SD content but HD stutters.

I'm using one of the arctic boxes but I know people who use the pi and they have no problem with HD content. They have Live TV too.

Antigrav

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Is the R-Pi running Openelec/XBMC good enough for Live HD TV?

I just have it playing music at present, but sounds like others have TV through it according to @Remouad

Are there any difficulties or problems associated with it?

I had a bit of trouble with one SD card, so good idea to burn a recovery image once it is all set up.

If not the Pi, what would be your suggested front-end hardware?

I used an Atom/ION setup, but this was three years ago. Lots of options now if you look at the threads here on Roku, Ouya, and other Android boxes.

What are you running on the server?
A version of Linux?

It's the XFCE Version of Linux Mint. I have NFS Mounts for the clients to share pictures, video and music and TVheadend for DVB streaming. There's a RAID-1 Storage with 4x2Tb drives. This is why I went for ML110 rather than Microserver as there is an additional drive bay.

Have you set up downloading and streaming from the internet on the server?

I'm using TorrentFlux for downloading as it's easy to set up different accounts for the family. Not currently streaming anything. Plenty of plugins for XBMC to play with on clients.

Sorry for all the questions, but I would appreciate any first-hand experience details, if possible.

No worries. This stuff is a lot easier if you can find something that is already working for other people.

Johnboy1951

Thanks for all the great info in the replies ..... much appreciated

Presently I am leaning towards the following ....

Use an existing large case that is in storage.
New components inside including PSU, Motherboard, RAM.
The HDDs will be a combination of existing and new .... possibly in a RAID config if only to preserve the copies of DVDs to avoid having to duplicate the work.

I will likely have to get a few new fans and strategically place them ..... and look to having their speed temperature controlled.
I haven't investigated that as yet.

The motherboard will need four PCI-e connectors (to allow for expansion requirements in tuners) ..... and I would like them well spaced out to allow airflow between the tuner cards which can get quite hot.
So I guess I will spend some time sourcing a suitable motherboard, with two 1Gb NICs and possibly USB3 and SATA III connectors.

I will need more info from my friend about intended use .... will he need enough CPU power for transcoding and such, or not. That will determine the CPU I think, as a low powered CPU would be suitable for the server side, but transcoding would need better.

Comment:
With the Saorview Mux2 due to launch at the end of the year, with more channels going HD, it will have to be a dual DVB-T card as I intended, or two singles (dearer).

Thanks again for the feedback.

If anyone has anything to add or suggestions about particular hardware, please post.

Johnboy1951

Thought to update this thread for anyone interested, and ask a question I should have asked at the beginning.

Other things got in the way of this project, and am presently testing things out on old hardware.

I have a USB DTT dongle to use for tests and a R-Pi and a couple of PCs and a small tablet for clients.

The old box I am using as a server during the tests has an Abit Kn9 SLi motherboard with an Athlon 64 x 2 Dual Core 5000+ CPU and 2 GB ram.

I installed my favourite version of Linux (PCLinuxOS) and TVHeadend.

No problems with the DTT dongle set up for the Saorview channels.

I stuck in a real old weak video card, as all it has to do is (temporarily) show me what is happening with the OS. It will not be required to display any video.

I will have to temporarily rob my main HTPC of its two TBS cards to ensure they also work in this situation.

I don't expect any great problems, as I *think* I have installed the TBS drivers correctly

Anyway, that is the state of play at present ...... and to be very honest I see little benefit in purchasing new gear if this set up works out as well as it seems it might.

It might be the only purchases needed for the server are the two tuner cards.

****

Now to the question, which I do not recall asking previously ......

Is there any backend server box for sale that has either

a) tuners already installed and ready to stream Live TV to clients? It does not need to have any (or minimal) video out as it will never be used to display video.

b) the two PCI-e slots available and sufficient resources to manage being a 'complete' backend ..... live TV and stored media and live internet feeds etc.

I have not found anything that I think suitable ..... but thought I had best ask in case I change my mind about using the old gear above.

Thanks for reading and the responses.

regards.

EDIT:

What would ye think of the HP Proliant ML310e ? ...... seems to be a good price presently ....
http://www.elara.ie/productdetail.aspx?productcode=ECE2678862

Supercell

For the front end I would go with the Pii B with a nice Pibow case (I have the multicoloured one and it looks great imho).
For optimised performance get a popcornmix Openelec build, use a small sd card and a fast usb2 or usb3 stick for the install (the howto on the XBMC wiki explain how to install like this, its easy). Put all your movies and shows into their own folders this way you will be able to scroll through your library easily and quickly - all files in one folder = crappy performance on a Pii. Tvheadend is built into Openelec so that will fit in nicely with your setup.
Make sure you have a decent hdmi cable (HDMI 1.4 recommended), I found my original cheapy one wouldn't work with CEC and 1080p properly on the Pii
In January the Bay Trail Nucs are coming out and I'm going to be upgrading to to one of those and a linux install (want to have a proper web browser for my wife to watch Chinese streaming online) - the Pii will go into the kitchen tv instead.

Agueroooo

Supercell wrote: »

For the front end I would go with the Pii B with a nice Pibow case (I have the multicoloured one and it looks great imho).
For optimised performance get a popcornmix Openelec build, use a small sd card and a fast usb2 or usb3 stick for the install (the howto on the XBMC wiki explain how to install like this, its easy). Put all your movies and shows into their own folders this way you will be able to scroll through your library easily and quickly - all files in one folder = crappy performance on a Pii. Tvheadend is built into Openelec so that will fit in nicely with your setup.
Make sure you have a decent hdmi cable (HDMI 1.4 recommended), I found my original cheapy one wouldn't work with CEC and 1080p properly on the Pii
In January the Bay Trail Nucs are coming out and I'm going to be upgrading to to one of those and a linux install (want to have a proper web browser for my wife to watch Chinese streaming online) - the Pii will go into the kitchen tv instead.

some pointers:

• I have similar setup and I would not recommend anything else but running Openelec from a SDS/USB combo, especially when you are using the Pi as a frontend.

here is a great vid (inc links) for everything needed) on how to setup and run via USB.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_uHc6MIpTM

• Hardwire only.

• Also I am using an XBMC addon called VU++ Enigma which I find great for the Live TV end of things.

Supercell

Agueroooo wrote: »

• Also I am using an XBMC addon called VU++ Enigma which I find great for the Live TV end of things.

Looks interesting, that only works with Enigma 2 right?
I've a 7020 running Enigma 1(Gemini project) that i was half wondering if it could be controlled through XBMC but didn't get round to looking into it further.
Do you have to run Pli on the Dreambox?

Agueroooo

Supercell wrote: »

Looks interesting, that only works with Enigma 2 right?

Oops yep you're probably right, but not confirmed.

I have a Amiko Alien2 running E2

Johnboy1951

here is a great vid (inc links) for everything needed) on how to setup and run via USB.

I had a look at the video .... actually looked at the updated video that it linked to.

Obviously the operating system still loads from the SD card and not from the USB stick ..... the USB stick being used for the 'Storage' of settings etc.

Most of what I had read about using USB had implied that the OS was on USB also .... but apparently not.

thos

I'm working on a similar setup.
Centralised Linux backend server, multiple DVB with tvheadend, Xbmc frontends.

I'm trialling it with Saorview DVBT TBS card at the moment.

Rasp pi client isn't great with this tvheadend setup, still has a few bugs:
http://forum.xbmc.org/showthread.php?tid=149748
Aspect ratio is easy workaround, but black screen issue seems to be deeper problem, no clear fix yet.

HD does need good network, wireless to ATV2 client is poor in my setup at the moment.
Wired Rpi does well with HD content, better than I thought.