Suggestions for the efficient suckler herd

moy83

Well people belt away with whats cutting costs and bumping up the profit of yer weanlins .
Another thought I had was working out a deal between weanling producers and tillage boys that buy them for feeding over the winter . Could it suit the tillage men to take the weanlins at a certain weight at a certain time of the year and sell grain and straw back to the cow man ? Also it could be an outlet for dung/ slurry for farms that are finding it hard to utilize it properly .
Forward prices could be agreed ?

Manoffeeling

moy83 wrote: »

Forward prices could be agreed ?

Just like the factories

Dampintheattic

moy83 wrote: »

Well people belt away with whats cutting costs and bumping up the profit of yer weanlins .
Another thought I had was working out a deal between weanling producers and tillage boys that buy them for feeding over the winter . Could it suit the tillage men to take the weanlins at a certain weight at a certain time of the year and sell grain and straw back to the cow man ? Also it could be an outlet for dung/ slurry for farms that are finding it hard to utilize it properly .
Forward prices could be agreed ?

Two farmers agree on something:D

moy83

Forward prices mightnt work but I suppose its easy to get an average price per kg for what you have at the time .

yellow50HX

while i am loathe to follow the teasgasc mantra and quote the NZ model there is merit in tillage lads wintering cattle.

many tillage famers in NZ use the stubble to out winter cattle and many would sow kale or other fodder crops after the main harvest to feed animals. so just wondering if this was a feasible system in irish conditions? say a tillage lad has 80ac of stubble and grows 10ac of fodder beet how many yearlings could he outwinter on the stubble and strip feed the beet until the follwing march before sending the anmilas back to thier owner and ploughing in the land? if the cattle farmer supplied the silage in bales they could be feed out on the stubble. and you could have a liberal supply of organic matter left in the field.

i'd say it would defo have a role. we are bounced by a couple of decent sized tillage farms but they are all leased out, if they were owner used i would look into doing this myself.

bob charles

yellow50HX wrote: »

while i am loathe to follow the teasgasc mantra and quote the NZ model there is merit in tillage lads wintering cattle.

many tillage famers in NZ use the stubble to out winter cattle and many would sow kale or other fodder crops after the main harvest to feed animals. so just wondering if this was a feasible system in irish conditions? say a tillage lad has 80ac of stubble and grows 10ac of fodder beet how many yearlings could he outwinter on the stubble and strip feed the beet until the follwing march before sending the anmilas back to thier owner and ploughing in the land? if the cattle farmer supplied the silage in bales they could be feed out on the stubble. and you could have a liberal supply of organic matter left in the field.

i'd say it would defo have a role. we are bounced by a couple of decent sized tillage farms but they are all leased out, if they were owner used i would look into doing this myself.

Find that the reduction in the following crop often isnt worth this cheap wintering option. Knock a ton off a first wheat and all of a sudden your wintering cost while very cheap on paper cost a fortune

moy83

yellow50HX wrote: »

while i am loathe to follow the teasgasc mantra and quote the NZ model there is merit in tillage lads wintering cattle.

many tillage famers in NZ use the stubble to out winter cattle and many would sow kale or other fodder crops after the main harvest to feed animals. so just wondering if this was a feasible system in irish conditions? say a tillage lad has 80ac of stubble and grows 10ac of fodder beet how many yearlings could he outwinter on the stubble and strip feed the beet until the follwing march before sending the anmilas back to thier owner and ploughing in the land? if the cattle farmer supplied the silage in bales they could be feed out on the stubble. and you could have a liberal supply of organic matter left in the field.

i'd say it would defo have a role. we are bounced by a couple of decent sized tillage farms but they are all leased out, if they were owner used i would look into doing this myself.

Or indeed if it didnt work out between two lads the kale could be incorporated into the sucklers own reseeding programme each year if the land allowed it . A row of bales left in after the first cut and kale stiched in leaving a line after each bale for the electric fence . Should make for easy tilling in spring . Do they need a lie back area for that kind of wintering ?

just do it

Roadway, paddocks and grass measuring

yellow50HX

bob charles wrote: »

Find that the reduction in the following crop often isnt worth this cheap wintering option. Knock a ton off a first wheat and all of a sudden your wintering cost while very cheap on paper cost a fortune

is there that much of a difference after out wintering?

lad near here has an out farm half tillage half grass, there are always either sheep or yearlings on the stubble and he is still getting good yeilds, his barly was knocking on 3t/ac this year which would have been on teh hugher scale round these parts? i know he has been over teh 3t/ac fromt eh same place a good times over the years. i'd say there is a stocking rate espically of young cattle that wouldnt cause too much damage. i know a couple of tillage boys that bemoan the lost of sugar beet as a break crop they all reckon the beet increased yeaild inteh cearls.

Toplink

just do it wrote: »

Roadway, paddocks and grass measuring

Paddocks... a new entrant to farming question...

How do you size these? Say you have a group of 25 suckler cows and their calves let out of a shed in March...

What size paddock should you use, how often should you move them, what length should the grass be before you let them back?

Manoffeeling

bob charles wrote: »

Find that the reduction in the following crop often isnt worth this cheap wintering option. Knock a ton off a first wheat and all of a sudden your wintering cost while very cheap on paper cost a fortune

It's hard enough to out-summer cattle let alone out-winter them.

delaval

Yellow your idea had lost favour in NZ. The yields were dropping probably because it got liquified during the winters. It almost impossible for a cow man to get run off as it was called.
Know a guy in Scotland was at it with neighbouring tillage guy but that arrangement has also ended for the same reason

yellow50HX

delaval wrote: »

Yellow your idea had lost favour in NZ. The yields were dropping probably because it got liquified during the winters. It almost impossible for a cow man to get run off as it was called.
Know a guy in Scotland was at it with neighbouring tillage guy but that arrangement has also ended for the same reason

like i say just an idea, if it has been tried and used on a large scale then thats something look at. we talk a lot on here about low cost housing and telling lads to look at outwintering rather then spending money on concrete and sheds, at least we know that there are draw backs too to these systems. as soemone who does partical outwintering i do look to see where i can cut my cost re slurry and feeding and so on while still having land in good shape. not much good to a tillage lad having the soil strucature ruined by having cattle poach the crap out of the field.

just do it

Toplink wrote: »

Paddocks... a new entrant to farming question...

How do you size these? Say you have a group of 25 suckler cows and their calves let out of a shed in March...

What size paddock should you use, how often should you move them, what length should the grass be before you let them back?

Worthy of a new thread of it's own! Ideally cattle should be moved on every two days to prevent grazing of regrowth. Therefore paddock should have kg DM of grass to match demand of group size. Teagasc have a good guide on it that google should help you find.

just do it

I saw in the farmers weekly one farmer uses the same 3HA each year to outwinter 70 heifers and dry cows Nov to Feb. He reseeds it yearly and builds a cover of 3,500 and drops silage bales in it. Every second day he moves the fence.

yellow50HX

Toplink wrote: »

Paddocks... a new entrant to farming question...

How do you size these? Say you have a group of 25 suckler cows and their calves let out of a shed in March...

What size paddock should you use, how often should you move them, what length should the grass be before you let them back?

we try to do the same grassland management for the sucklers as we did with the dairy cows. the cows are there to make as much quaility milk as they can so that it can be passed to the calf to make it grow. you should look to run your grazing for 25 sucklers the same way you you would have it for 25 dairy cows. as for roadways not as big as issue for sucklers as they wont be moving from parlour to field twice a day but they are useful when moving stock. also ideal when looking to bring in a lame or sick animal or one going to calf. by all mean have them but you wont be using them as must as a dairy lad.

moy83

just do it wrote: »

Worthy of a new thread of it's own! Ideally cattle should be moved on every two days to prevent grazing of regrowth. Therefore paddock should have kg DM of grass to match demand of group size. Teagasc have a good guide on it that google should help you find.

Is set stocking a no no ? I left four cows and calfs in one garden for most of the summer and two cows and calves and two springers in another . One garden was getting slack so I threw out two bags of manure as it was starting to rain one night and by the end of the week they had plenty of pickings again for a few weeks . I thought it was a handy way of minding them in bunches especially if you have different blocks of land away from each other .

Dont be daft

Are you allowed out-winter on stubbles?

I always thought you weren't and anyone outwintering was sowing kale mid-Summer after a Winter crop was harvested. Then you'd have to rotate between Spring and Winter effectively halving the area available to you.

Also the allowed stocking rates are poxy, you'd want a lot of land.

I know there's probably lads that push the envelope when it comes to the rules but can't imagine a tillage farmer risking his SFP for a small gain.
All you need is a Dept. official with a slightly different interpretation of poaching to you and your into a world of hassle.

That's before you even get into yields and the hardship of going out herding and changing strip wires in the pissing rain and cold of Winter.
Them tillage lads wouldn't like that at all:P

blue5000

Tillage and suckling would only dovetail well together on good dry land.

Problems I've seen in the past is that tillage men are not stockmen and stockmen tend not to be great with machinery. ~Maybe we should be going back 50 years where everyone (around here anyway) had some corn, a few cattle and maybe milked 10 or 15 cows. They also had 3 or 4 ppl working on a farm. Since then we've all become specialists at one enterprise, eg. dairying.

Could we scale it up? 3 or 4 lads working together in partnership? 1 stockman, 1 tillage and a couple with off farm jobs who muck in when sowing, harvesting and calving is on?

Muckit

• Breeding - milky cow mated to a good terminal bull
• Good grassland management
• Reseeding & keeping rye grass growing and weeds out!
• Making quality silage - the majority of suckler farmers are working on poorer land and have longer winters. Many suckler farming cod themselves into thinking they don't need good quality silage because they have suckler cows. But poor quality silage costs more money as you need to feed and therefore make more of it to keep the cow in the same condition. More silage =more labour/time/machinery costs to feed out also more wrap/covers. Quality silage can be restricted if cows are batched correctly. Poor quality silage may mean feeding meal to cows, which is just plain lunacy.

bbam

Here's something from a few years ago folks..

We approached the costs as the cost of weanlings ready for mart rather than the cost of keeping the suckler as in the end the weanling is your product..

Costs were based on how we had been doing for the few years previous to selling sucklers out.
The goal was to cost weanlings on to ~9 months old and ~15 months old, hitting about 320kg and 450kg at each milestone.

Small 10 cow herd so the impact of loss of scale is obvious..

Its easier to follow on the spreadsheet..
I think all the numbers tally right..apologies if they don't as its a few years old



Jan1 Calving
Costs:
Cow Value €1300 over 6 years less €700 cull €100.00
Cow Silage Consumption, 1 bale = 10 days €300.00
Bull Value (€3000 for 50 calves, 10 a year for 5 years) less €750 cull €45.
Bull Silage consumption 1 bale = 10 days for 10 calves €30.00
Concentrates €10.00
Electricity €10.00
Minerals €5.00
Vetinary & Vetinary Products €60.00
Straw €10.00
Depreciation & Equipment Maintenance €100.00
Grass €75.00

Spring Cost @ 84 Days €745.00



Electricity €10.00
Concentrates (250kg) €52.78
Hay / Silage / Grass €20.00
Minerals €5.00
Vetinary Products €10.00

Cost to Autumn @ 165 + 84 = 249 days 8.5 months old €842.78



Electricity €10.00
Concentrates (250kg) €52.00
Silage (6 bales each) €108.00
Minerals €5.00
Vetinary Products €10.00

Mortality @ 5% €50.00


Cost to Spring aged 15 months (435 days) €1,077.78


I see some things missing at a glance.. Insurance, accounting, hedgecutting/land maintenance... probably more too..

bob charles

biggest problem with outwintering nowadays is that you have to have 16/18/20 weeks slurry storage in the yard for the animals anyway even if they never come in. Already you are probably half ways to paying for the full treatment. I winter allot of light stock outdoors. It can be hard going when having to tend to them when it gets bright at 8am and dark at 5pm as there just arent enough hours in the day. Usually like to keep number low so they get used to the fields they are in. Once cattle are used of the land they wont do that much harm.

I have seen yield suppressed by 1.5t an acre of cereals. different ground maybe able to take the damage. Outwintering is grand when dealing with small numbers but once you go up in numbers it can be allot of extra work

bob charles

bbam wrote: »

I see some things missing at a glance.. Insurance, accounting, hedgecutting/land maintenance... probably more too..

I think your silage cost are way too high. when I had sucklers they used to get a decent bale of hay silage between 20. €150 should definitely feed them for an average winter on silage.

Manoffeeling

bob charles wrote: »

I have seen yield suppressed by 1.5t an acre of cereals. different ground maybe able to take the damage.

Them round feeder things make lovely crop circles the following year. P or K deficiency perhaps!

bbam

bob charles wrote: »

I think your silage cost are way too high. when I had sucklers they used to get a decent bale of hay silage between 20. €150 should definitely feed them for an average winter on silage.

So isnt the recomendation to budget for a bale a day per 10 cows???
Silage was of lesser quality and including waste this is near enough what we were using...

Anyhow.. take it to be €150 and then add in what I missed at the time.. much the same really..

Farmer Pudsey

moy83 wrote: »

Or indeed if it didnt work out between two lads the kale could be incorporated into the sucklers own reseeding programme each year if the land allowed it . A row of bales left in after the first cut and kale stiched in leaving a line after each bale for the electric fence . Should make for easy tilling in spring . Do they need a lie back area for that kind of wintering ?

First of all yes they need a lie Back and can only be stocked at 1LU/HA I think it may be less. The second thing is will a suckler farmers who cannot manage to grow grass and manage it grow Kale and manage it.

just do it wrote: »

Worthy of a new thread of it's own! Ideally cattle should be moved on every two days to prevent grazing of regrowth. Therefore paddock should have kg DM of grass to match demand of group size. Teagasc have a good guide on it that google should help you find.

Not feasible with dry stock will have too many bunches and you cannot gauge for all eventuallys. I would go for a mixture of 3-5 acre paddocks put the trough in the middle of the field and split in two or four. I am happy with cattle being from 5-8 days in paddocks and moving then. Split paddocks and let them run into next side of paddock. The trick is placing water troughs so that you can access it from 2or3 splits in a paddock.

caseman

Toplink wrote: »

Paddocks... a new entrant to farming question...

How do you size these? Say you have a group of 25 suckler cows and their calves let out of a shed in March...

What size paddock should you use, how often should you move them, what length should the grass be before you let them back?

Depends an land type, i have mix of heavy and dry land.
All my paddocks are done with strip wire, and in wet weather their moved nearly every day to avoid poaching , and in good wether their big enough to last 4 to 5 days.

hugo29

caseman wrote: »

Depends an land type, i have mix of heavy and dry land.
All my paddocks are done with strip wire, and in wet weather their moved nearly every day to avoid poaching , and in good wether their big enough to last 4 to 5 days.

I try to work on the 3 weeks to grow, 3 days to graze rule of thumb, divide the paddocks up to suit this based on land type and stock numbers,

moy83

bob charles wrote: »

biggest problem with outwintering nowadays is that you have to have 16/18/20 weeks slurry storage in the yard for the animals anyway even if they never come in. Already you are probably half ways to paying for the full treatment.

I didnt know this , how strict do they enforce it ? Another plan of mine if I was to up the numbers was to rent hardy ground to winter dry cows on

Midlandsman80

This may not be the thread for it but why is it that there not more beef co-op operations, might assist in some of the sale price complaints of beef men? Is it the cost of entry and management? Why can the dairy lads seem to get more organised, I suppose the supply chain is hugely different but surely some sort of contracts could be sorted to meet projected demand..
Surely any beef co-op would have a unique selling point as they fully own their supply chain...

hugo29

moy83 wrote: »

I didnt know this , how strict do they enforce it ? Another plan of mine if I was to up the numbers was to rent hardy ground to winter dry cows on

I thought you could out winter with a set stocking rate and you have to keep moving the ring feeder, maybe it's changed

Midlandsman80

Wrote this a few min ago, thought posted but not sure where it went...

How come there is no beef co-op processing and sales operation? maybe there is that I don't know but why are they not common place? Maybe something like truly Irish for pig Ind (don't like their adds but like the idea of the set up)

Surely it would be a great selling point to fully own the supply chain...go a long way to sort out sales price concern and a few decent size ones would also help in keeping the big ones honest on sales prices/profiteering. With IFA always complaining on factory prices how come they cant put something forward like this, I am a total novice so there are probably loads of reasons to say no but a fully farmer owned operation would great to see in operation.

1chippy

moy83 wrote: »

I didnt know this , how strict do they enforce it ? Another plan of mine if I was to up the numbers was to rent hardy ground to winter dry cows on

You can use dry bedded sheds to allow for a percentage of the requirement, this is the only way i'm passing at the moment.
Outwintering is grand as others have said with stock under 400kg spread out in wee batchs. i outwintered 20 light stores last year and they throve a lot better than the stock in the sheds. i did pity them during the snow. This year i'll be throwing out over double that but its more down to necessity until i get the dosh for this shed together.

bob charles

moy83 wrote: »

I didnt know this , how strict do they enforce it ? Another plan of mine if I was to up the numbers was to rent hardy ground to winter dry cows on

Not strictly, until you get an dept inspection or better still the county council come knocking. The depth these parasites go to make work for themselves is unreal. I have to live by the law anyway. If you are under 140kgs/N/HA you can get away with reduced slurry storage

moy83

bob charles wrote: »

Not strictly, until you get an dept inspection or better still the county council come knocking. The depth these parasites go to make work for themselves is unreal. I have to live by the law anyway. If you are under 140kgs/N/HA you can get away with reduced slurry storage

Its been a few years since we had a coco inspection thank god , and never got a dept inspection as far as I know . We would have loads of storage for all we have at the minute anyhow

blue5000

moy83 wrote: »

Its been a few years since we had a coco inspection thank god , and never got a dept inspection as far as I know . We would have loads of storage for all we have at the minute anyhow

Ya lucky b4stard, how did you manage that?

moy83

blue5000 wrote: »

Ya lucky b4stard, how did you manage that?

I dont know , the only dept lads that were here was when we had bse . The old fella didnt exactly make them feel comfortable at the time .

delaval

blue5000 wrote: »

Ya lucky b4stard, how did you manage that?

Probably lives too close to their office for them to collect decent mileage!!!
Also a good place for grub near you isn't good!!!

moy83

delaval wrote: »

Probably lives too close to their office for them to collect decent mileage!!!
Also a good place for grub near you isn't good!!!

Ten minutes from door to door including parking would be all it would take me to get into them

delaval

We don't house weanlings even though we would have space. They are grazed on grass built up from 1st Sept till they return to their ground in the spring.
We keep in groups of 60 move daily never allowing them back over grazed ground. We always move at day light otherwise they will start walking and do damage in wet weather.
We find that they thrive really well and hit the ground running

just do it

By god lads, you're giving me ideas for this winter!

delaval

just do it wrote: »

By god lads, you're giving me ideas for this winter!

JDI
I am on dry land so easy for me to talk!!!!

hugo29

just do it wrote: »

By god lads, you're giving me ideas for this winter!

i know, was thinking the same meself, then walked the ground after all this rain and that changes

bbam

i watched a program on TV a few years back, but for the life of me I don't remember what it was..
Anyhow, they were talking about French beef farmers. They had formed a co-operative to deal with the meat factories, a proper co-op where its purpose was to suppport farms and not make profit just for itself.

Anyway.. the more farmers that joined, the better deal the co-op could strike with the factory on price based on numbers.. I'm a bit haizy on the process but when you had cattle ready a rep from the co-op came out and weightd them on your farm, you got paid the set price on their weights and then the cattle were collected for the factory, everyone got the same price..

It also worked as a buyers group for feeds etc.. I don't think they had any rstriction on herd size so small producers got the same value as larger producers..

I thought it was great, the farmers had a collective voice who would deal on their behalf and it had no other vested interest.. surely a similar system could work here ??

Manoffeeling

delaval wrote: »

We don't house weanlings even though we would have space. They are grazed on grass built up from 1st Sept till they return to their ground in the spring.
We keep in groups of 60 move daily never allowing them back over grazed ground. We always move at day light otherwise they will start walking and do damage in wet weather.
We find that they thrive really well and hit the ground running

That has to be a great job if you can manage it. It's the round feeder that does the harm, not handy stores.

Muckit

bbam wrote: »

i watched a program on TV a few years back, but for the life of me I don't remember what it was..
Anyhow, they were talking about French beef farmers. They had formed a co-operative to deal with the meat factories, a proper co-op where its purpose was to suppport farms and not make profit just for itself.

Anyway.. the more farmers that joined, the better deal the co-op could strike with the factory on price based on numbers.. I'm a bit haizy on the process but when you had cattle ready a rep from the co-op came out and weightd them on your farm, you got paid the set price on their weights and then the cattle were collected for the factory, everyone got the same price..

It also worked as a buyers group for feeds etc.. I don't think they had any rstriction on herd size so small producers got the same value as larger producers..

I thought it was great, the farmers had a collective voice who would deal on their behalf and it had no other vested interest.. surely a similar system could work here ??

Yes I think this is an excellent idea. I was only thinking about something like this the other day. Basically the equivalent of a purchasing group, but for selling. The only thing would be number of movements... would your selling to the coop be counted as a movement? But I'm sure this could be set up if a few like minded farmer came together! If it was done right, the coop could have a lorry that would collect all animals to go on a certain day and could send that load to the factory offering the best quote on the day.

bbam

Muckit wrote: »

Yes I think this is an excellent idea. I was only thinking about something like this the other day. Basically the equivalent of a purchasing group, but for selling. The only thing would be number of movements... would your selling to the coop be counted as a movement? But I'm sure this could be set up if a few like minded farmer came together! If it was done right, the coop could have a lorry that would collect all animals to go on a certain day and could send that load to the factory offering the best quote on the day.

I'm not going to let on I know much about sending cattle to the factory... But could it not be that the movement was between the farmer and the factory but the coop handled the money and transport.. Movement & money are in no way linked, moving cattle without money changing hands isn't unheard of.. The coop aren't keeping animals, just collecting and delivering, or farmers could deliver themselves..
It could be in no way bad for the industry to hand more control back to farmers or a proper representative of farmers.

I'm sure there are a thousand problems and things that would stand in its way, but most of these would be thrown up by the same vested interests who want the status quo to remain as they are gaining at the expense of the beef industry..

Bizzum

moy83 wrote: »

Well people belt away with whats cutting costs and bumping up the profit of yer weanlins .

In relation to maximizing profit from weanlings, we all have cows that generally produce the best selling calves, either heaviest or best quality or typically a mix of both. At the other end of the scale we have the underachievers. I suppose the majority of the herd falls somewhere in between.

So it makes sense to me to try and maximize the number of good cows and minimize the number of poorer producers. Thus increasing the average quality of the herd.
It does take time though, and is a never-ending task.
A decent replacement heifer policy also goes hand in hand with the above.

So we have accounted for 50% of the calves genetics with cow selection. The other 50% is probably worth thinking about too. A decent Bull or careful AI sire selection would take care of this end of things.

munkus

Muckit wrote: »

Yes I think this is an excellent idea. I was only thinking about something like this the other day. Basically the equivalent of a purchasing group, but for selling. The only thing would be number of movements... would your selling to the coop be counted as a movement? But I'm sure this could be set up if a few like minded farmer came together! If it was done right, the coop could have a lorry that would collect all animals to go on a certain day and could send that load to the factory offering the best quote on the day.

Any time I suggest this to the ould lad his answer is that

Didn't this happen in Cork in the 80s. A Co oP group built the most advanced abattoir in europe. But of course corrupt paddy couldn't keep it honest and they ran it into the ground.

That's why Larry decides what we get.

Markcheese

just do it wrote: »

I saw in the farmers weekly one farmer uses the same 3HA each year to outwinter 70 heifers and dry cows Nov to Feb. He reseeds it yearly and builds a cover of 3,500 and drops silage bales in it. Every second day he moves the fence.

"a " dairy farm along the straight road in cork seems to do something similar ...but uses it as a sacrifice paddock,ground is bone dry though ..