Where have all the classic hot-hatches gone?

Top Dog

Doing the usual DoneDeal window browsing, I was hit by a bit of nostalgia so started looking up the original classic hot-hatches. I'm talking the likes of late 80's - mid 90's cars. Typically less than 2.0 capacity, occasionally having displacement subsidised by a turbo, weighing next to nothing and a hoot to drive even if they might be considered slow by todays standards.

Now maybe those who actually have them are hanging on to them, but I couldn't help but be surprised at the lack for sale. Are they all dead in a ditch, wrapped around a lamp-post or Rotting In Pieces? :(

For example I've looked for the following with very few results;

Renault Clio 16v/Williams
Renault 19 16v
Peugeot 205/106 GTI
Corolla GTI (AE92?)
Punto Mk1 Turbo
Starlet Turbo
Ford Fiesta/Escort XR & RS

I could add more, but I figure if I'm finding very few 106 GTI's then finding a Charade GTTi or Swift GTI will be like searching for hen's teeth!

mathepac

Do a search for "on log book" on www.donedeal.ie and you'll find some interesting mis-labelled stuff e.g 535s with 520 log books, Civics with with B16B & B18B VTECs fitted instead of the VTIs on the log books, Corolla 1.6 with 2.0 Turbo in the car, 1.6 on log book, Galanza Turbos with non-turbo engines listed on the log books, etc, etc. There's 30/40 cars, some apparently with NCTs, that do more than they say on the tin. The advertisers boast about them so you can't miss the ads. Not the traditional stuff but "hot" in other ways.

Top Dog

Saw some of those alright.

Fiat Punto HGT 1.8 - apparently tuned to 180bhp - 1.2 Sporting on the log book :rolleyes::mad:

Lurching

I reckon it may be due to the price. I sold a 97 106 gti 5 years ago for €5,000. Newer ones can now be got for less than €1,000.

If I still owned mine, I'd be hanging on to it.

YbFocus

Ah they are getting thin on the ground alright, I'd say what is left will start taking on a premium from now. I'd love a mk3 rs turbo fiesta. Friend had one years ago and just loved the madness of it

It's a pity but they are getting old and many of those either rotted to death (eg. the fiestas) or were totalled by over enthusiastic drivers

Vicxas

Problem is that most of these were stolen and burned out over the years that its thinned the herd.

Its a damn shame though caus i remember as a kid all the 106 GTI's flying around. Sheer madness

rovoagho

I'd say a lot of them were scrapped by dummies that didn't know what they had, particularly the lower end stuff like Fiestas. The scrappage scheme has an awful lot to answer for.

I'd guess some of the rarer cars like Clio Williams' found their way into lockups, and across the water. Great cars, always wanted one, but then I'm a sucker for the wide look.

YbFocus

I remember being in a scrappy at the time of the scrappage scheme and I almost cried.
An owner of a mint Lexus LS400, low mileage and I mean mint, had given it in for the said scheme.
I sat in its leather seats and looked around at how everything was so perfect, it even had the Lexus welcome CD that talked you through all the bits and pieces onboard.
That to me was the real sad part of the scheme, would have been the spitting image of this...



I asked the man in charge does it not sadden him and he said that it does but he can't do anything about it, it must go through as it was logged for the scheme or whatever.

Like the owner would have got what as a maximum? Was it €1500?
Surely even if it sold for a bit less he would have been happy to see a car that he had taken care of well, stay on the road for many more years.

Wibbs

You could add the Japanese fast stuff to that list. I haven't seen a Scooby in a very long time. Nor an Evo, even hot civics and integras which were very common to see have nigh on vanished. When was the last time you saw a Ford Cosworth of any type?

Lurching wrote: »

I reckon it may be due to the price. I sold a 97 106 gti 5 years ago for €5,000. Newer ones can now be got for less than €1,000.

Yea the prices dropped through the floor. The scrappage scheme removed a load of them(I saw some real classics go to the crusher ). Then you had the oul celtic tiger ballsology where people had more credit so went for new cars and "old" cars were considered uncool and as the bank owned the car people weren't into modifying nearly as much so that sector near vanished too(remember places like Carnoisseur etc). Then as Vicxas said theft was a major problem(people would spend hundreds on "ICE" and a tenner on a wheellock). Insurance was high which put off the younger drivers and many younger drivers also got hassled by the cops. There was a perfect storm to remove that sector of the car market in Ireland.

One advantage such as it is, is that if you are in the market for one of those cars, they are still unfashionable and with the result they are sooooo much cheaper than in the UK for example. A while back I saw a Clio Williams on Donedeal for nigh on half the price of UK examples. Type R's are about a third cheaper*. Similar savings apply elsewhere. Some are certainly being bought by canny UK buyers. If I had some spare euros knocking about, I'd be investing in one of these kind of cars as a second car myself.

Many of those cars were in that sweet spot of mechanical simplicity, just after the period where you needed to file points and oil trunnions and just before it got all too electronic and heavy and a little numb and "safe". IMHO some of those cars if looked after will last many years longer than many newer cars who came after them as their leccy bits break down and their complexity comes back to haunt them.


*Go further afield and it gets all sorts of mad. For the price of one integra type R in the US, you could by 3 or 4 here.

dgt

Yep the scrappage scheme has a lot to answer for. Also peoples stupidity. If anyone is going to Kilcock dismantlers, have a look at the Opels. There's a mint and I mean mint mid 80's Kadett in deep red, including original raised numberplates. Not a pick of rust, almost in showroom condition. Interior spotless with receipts dating up to 1991. It was a time warp car and I'm absolutely sickened it ended up there

Most of the hot hatch owners either emigrated or are kept garaged and brought out for shows/odd weekend blast methinks

YbFocus

I suppose it makes the meets etc turn into a total drool fest though as you never see them going.
It's a pity that things like the Kadette happen alright dgt, I've seen cars like that in different scrappies and you feel like finding the last owner and firing him into the nearest river!!
Any of those cars would have been taken by someone, they don't need to end up in those places.

As I said before, when I found that LS400 it damn near broke me, it drove to the crusher, first tip of the key

Top Dog

Top Dog wrote: »

Saw some of those alright.

Fiat Punto HGT 1.8 - apparently tuned to 180bhp - 1.2 Sporting on the log book :rolleyes::mad:

Once you insure it correctly I don't see any problem, I wish my car was 1.2 on log book so I was paying about 1/4 of the tax.

YbFocus

Jimmy Shaggy Gymnast wrote: »

Once you insure it correctly I don't see any problem, I wish my car was 1.2 on log book so I was paying about 1/4 of the tax.

Oh dear god don't go there, you don't realise what your about to unleash. Honestly, you don't know who your dealing with here.

Donnelly117

Wibbs wrote: »

You could add the Japanese fast stuff to that list. I haven't seen a Scooby in a very long time. Nor an Evo, even hot civics and integras which were very common to see have nigh on vanished. When was the last time you saw a Ford Cosworth of any type?

There's a mint condition Sierra Cosworth that I've seen around a few times now. Its not got any bolt on halfords parts or ugly alloys... its like it was when it rolled out of the factory! Beautiful car!!!

SEPT 23 1989

Well my Mk2 Gti was parked up waiting for the recession to blow over and some scumbags nicked it,never to be seen again:mad:

YbFocus

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Well my Mk2 Gti was parked up waiting for the recession to blow over and some scumbags nicked it,never to be seen again:mad:

**** sake that's awful man, what is wrong with this world!!!

Max Power1

YbFocus wrote: »

Oh dear god don't go there, you don't realise what your about to unleash. Honestly, you don't know who your dealing with here.

Yeah, he probably thinks it doesnt matter what the judgemental and busibodies pack here , well some of us, are around!!

corktina

this thread is exactly the reason I bought my ST170 and ST200...they wont be there to buy in a very few years and mine are both original Irish cars with low mileage.Collectors items of the future I hope.

Carson10

All these old style hot hatches are all resting in the hay shed while the owners are off in OZ eating curry chips playing GAA in Sydney.

Toyotafanboi

still have my original starlet turbo

if it's a slight answer to the OP's question though, i feel like i've outgrown it and i am trying to sell it. i have little doubt that the next owner will wreck it.

dgt

Top Dog wrote: »

Saw some of those alright.

Fiat Punto HGT 1.8 - apparently tuned to 180bhp - 1.2 Sporting on the log book :rolleyes::mad:

Just saw that ad, that to me is an import taxed as a 1.2 (tax disc says 1200cc)

I'd like to see how this remap to 180bhp would work!!! :pac:

ShadowHearth

To be honest, anything that is a bit more "fun" became rare. The only other sportish cars that I still see on roads are Scoobies. Its like scoobies are the last ones to survive. Must have something to do with under 2.0 and 4 door I guess.
I cant remember when the last time I sow s14, s15, skyline, 180sx, dc2, dc5, evo ( havent seen this in freaking ages! ), supra, astra GSI (OPC old one ), ek9 ( real one, not a 1.4 turd ), e36 m3, any e30/e34 etc.
Its a shame really. The world will be poorer place without these mad machines .

Ded_Zebra

My Lancia Delta 1.6 turbo is safely garaged away waiting for funds to get back on the road.
I drive a Toyota levin (AE111) daily but I don't think it counts to what the op is talking about.

ba_barabus

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

still have my original starlet turbo

if it's a slight answer to the OP's question though, i feel like i've outgrown it and i am trying to sell it. i have little doubt that the next owner will wreck it.

Is there an ad for it?

I'm looking for a plaything at the minute

Tropheus

Owned a couple of Punto GTs back in the 90s. One was a 94 and I replaced it with 98. Great little cars, but they had no top end. I only had the 98 for a year and replaced it with a Coupe Turbo Limited Edition. Now that had plenty of top end.

ianobrien

OP I know what you mean alright. Even the '90's stuff like the Fiesta RS1800, Punto Turbo, Escort GTi/RS2000 etc are gone. I've seen the odd battered 106GTi but that's it really.

I had a Citroen AX GT Sportif that I sold in a moment of madness years ago. I've spent the past 3 years looking for a replacement one with no joy. I did find one years ago which I looked at but left due to the random plating on the front inner wings. It was for sale again a while back but I didn't bother.

At this stage, I'd take a AX GT, GT Sportif or even a GTi. I miss my lift off oversteer.....

renofan

Wibbs wrote: »

You could add the Japanese fast stuff to that list. I haven't seen a Scooby in a very long time. Nor an Evo, even hot civics and integras which were very common to see have nigh on vanished. When was the last time you saw a Ford Cosworth of any type?

I'd say the recession has hit a lot of owners of these sort of cars. Anyone I knew had some of the above or other hot hatches were in the building trade but that, as we know, is non-existent now.

serious3

ianobrien wrote: »

OP I know what you mean alright. Even the '90's stuff like the Fiesta RS1800, Punto Turbo, Escort GTi/RS2000 etc are gone. I've seen the odd battered 106GTi but that's it really.

I had a Citroen AX GT Sportif that I sold in a moment of madness years ago. I've spent the past 3 years looking for a replacement one with no joy. I did find one years ago which I looked at but left due to the random plating on the front inner wings. It was for sale again a while back but I didn't bother.

At this stage, I'd take a AX GT, GT Sportif or even a GTi. I miss my lift off oversteer.....

i miss my old AX GT, fecking dashboard fell off onto my knees while driving it in a particularly spirited way down a bumpy road!

People appear to be forgetting that a lot of these cars are very old now so its not surprising that they are few and far between. There will of course be a few well kept examples that live on but most are going to end up in a scrap yard or rusting in a field like all older cars.

Wibbs

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

still have my original starlet turbo

if it's a slight answer to the OP's question though, i feel like i've outgrown it and i am trying to sell it. i have little doubt that the next owner will wreck it.

The outgrowing it would have a large part to play in the lack of such cars today I reckon. Few enough today would live with the rawness of many of them. Older guys with money might avoid them if they've gotten used to more comfort as the years roll on. Like you say TFB the next owner will likely trash it. Cars like this usually go through a lifecycle. From new - valued secondhand purchase - price drops further, bought by younger types looking for a thrill - written off/trashed/"modified"/scrapped for parts - very few left in original condition - prices start to climb because of rarity.

Rowley Birkin QC

Jimmy Shaggy Gymnast wrote: »

Once you insure it correctly I don't see any problem, I wish my car was 1.2 on log book so I was paying about 1/4 of the tax.

Eric Cartman

Top Dog wrote: »

Doing the usual DoneDeal window browsing, I was hit by a bit of nostalgia so started looking up the original classic hot-hatches. I'm talking the likes of late 80's - mid 90's cars. Typically less than 2.0 capacity, occasionally having displacement subsidised by a turbo, weighing next to nothing and a hoot to drive even if they might be considered slow by todays standards.

Now maybe those who actually have them are hanging on to them, but I couldn't help but be surprised at the lack for sale. Are they all dead in a ditch, wrapped around a lamp-post or Rotting In Pieces? :(

For example I've looked for the following with very few results;

Renault Clio 16v/Williams
Renault 19 16v
Peugeot 205/106 GTI
Corolla GTI (AE92?)
Punto Mk1 Turbo
Starlet Turbo
Ford Fiesta/Escort XR & RS

I could add more, but I figure if I'm finding very few 106 GTI's then finding a Charade GTTi or Swift GTI will be like searching for hen's teeth!

hopefully to the scrap heap , never to return

Toyotafanboi

Eric Cartman wrote: »

hopefully to the scrap heap , never to return

a bit unfair. i don't think the car is much worse than any other on the list of examples? or what is it you don't like?

imo its moreso the drivers of the car people don't like in the starlets case than the car itself.

mfceiling

There's a lovely 205 gti on my road.

Sometimes i want to go to the door of the owner's house just to shake his hand and tell him that i think she's a lovely motor.

Sofiztikated

I cut my driving teeth on a Escort Rs Turbo (series 2)

A friend also had a Fiesta Rs Turbo.

While I say I'd love to get one, I have grown to prefer modern comforts, and I don't have the funds or space for a weekend car.

gerardk55

Must say I always had a soft spot for the 306 GTi-6, Rallye and 106 Rallye. Have been keeping an eye out for them but they're shy on the ground too.

Eric Cartman

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

a bit unfair. i don't think the car is much worse than any other on the list of examples? or what is it you don't like?

imo its moreso the drivers of the car people don't like in the starlets case than the car itself.

a lot of it has to do with the drivers / previous owners. im sure theres a few fanboi's :pac: like yourself that mind cars like that but, like with the civics and other 'hot hatches' that came out of japan in the 90s the majority of examples still rattling round our roads have had their 'power':pac: increased with no concern for the brakes or handling bar painting the callipers a different colour and fitting a 'racing' steering wheel, been poorly serviced and poorly repaired after accidents , combine that with the burbery hat brigade behind the wheel and it becomes a dangerous combination for other road users.

ofcork

Sister had a couple of 106gtis savage car to move and felt clung to the ground.

Top Dog

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

if it's a slight answer to the OP's question though, i feel like i've outgrown it and i am trying to sell it. i have little doubt that the next owner will wreck it.

I outgrew it myself a few years ago, but was thinking of something fun for running up to the city or around the place locally. Love the Shogun but tis big & thirsty and not really designed for throwing about country lanes. Thats part of the reason I started looking for the likes of an old 106 GTI - 1.6 tax, not too thirsty, relatively simple for home mechanics and I'm old enough now that I wouldn't need to re-mortgage a house to insure it, and old enough that they should be cheap enough to buy now too .... if you could find one! As one of the other posters alluded to - it was the sweet spot where things were relatively handy to work on and you didn't need a computer degree to diagnose an issue. They were small, light, fun and relatively handy on running costs (excluding insurance).

ShadowHearth wrote: »

I cant remember when the last time I sow s14, s15, skyline, 180sx.

Head to a drifting event There were never really a heap of those on Irish roads in the first place, and half of what was there is now stripped out and being abused to within an inch of its life.

Ded_Zebra wrote: »

My Lancia Delta 1.6 turbo is safely garaged away waiting for funds to get back on the road.
I drive a Toyota levin (AE111) daily but I don't think it counts to what the op is talking about.

The Levin is probably a bit newer (and thus more expensive) than what I was initially talking about - but its the same principle alright.

hellyeah

I would say they have all rotted away at this stage. I sent a 1999 ford escort to the crusher this year. Bodywork was in mint condition (had it from new)
Underbody was turning into a complete mess brake lines rotten, chassis etc
needed alot of work. Got her up on a ramp and started poking around with a screwdriver.
Guys at the scrapeyard thought i was mad but she was going to get dangerous.

galwaytt

There aren't half as many hot hatches sold as people think there were, so they weren't there to disappear in the first place. ....!

Tropheus

galwaytt wrote: »

There aren't half as many hot hatches sold as people think there were, so they weren't there to disappear in the first place. ....!

That's a fair point. Those majority of those that wanted them, i.e. young single guys, couldn't afford to insure them.

Most of them also had the sh1t driven out of them. If not by the first owner, certainly by subsequent owners.

Top Dog

galwaytt wrote: »

There aren't half as many hot hatches sold as people think there were, so they weren't there to disappear in the first place. ....!

You could certainly be right.

It definitely seemed like there were more though, which could have partially been because they actually stood out better from the boggo models back then. These days whatever warm hatches are out there are even harder to spot.

Wibbs

hellyeah wrote: »

I would say they have all rotted away at this stage. I sent a 1999 ford escort to the crusher this year. Bodywork was in mint condition (had it from new)
Underbody was turning into a complete mess brake lines rotten, chassis etc
needed alot of work. Got her up on a ramp and started poking around with a screwdriver.
Guys at the scrapeyard thought i was mad but she was going to get dangerous.

One of the biggest car shocks I ever got was watching a mint and I mean mint Sierra Cosworth go up on a ramp. The sills were like a colander, rusted right through from the inside out. The car was only 6 or 8 years old at the time. Scary.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

a lot of it has to do with the drivers / previous owners. im sure theres a few fanboi's :pac: like yourself that mind cars like that but, like with the civics and other 'hot hatches' that came out of japan in the 90s the majority of examples still rattling round our roads have had their 'power':pac: increased with no concern for the brakes or handling bar painting the callipers a different colour and fitting a 'racing' steering wheel, been poorly serviced and poorly repaired after accidents , combine that with the burbery hat brigade behind the wheel and it becomes a dangerous combination for other road users.

Low end models in the range maybe, but I've seen few enough of the "hot" versions so treated. IMH that's more an urban myth than reality. As for danger to other road users, when was the last time you saw one of these "hot hatches" wrapped around a tree or in the news following a fatality? You're far more likely to be hit by an everyday "family" type car.

Bawnmore

A buddy of mine is restoring a Williams Clio at the moment. They're fairly thin on the ground alright. I'll see if he'll post some pictures. It belonged to another buddy before that and he met most of the other owners in Ireland before shooting off to Canada.

corktina

Wibbs wrote: »

One of the biggest car shocks I ever got was watching a mint and I mean mint Sierra Cosworth go up on a ramp. The sills were like a colander, rusted right through from the inside out. The car was only 6 or 8 years old at the time. Scary.

.

I once saw a Cortina like that, very very clean on top but eaten away from inside on all the chassis members, holes everywhere...what bits were left had no external rust on them at all, just shiny paint. I walked away but it sold and was later put back up for sale at a big mark up...someone bought a pup there (never saw it again not surprisingly) You would never have guessed it's true state if you hadn't bent your back!

Supergurrier

Most of the few good examples are in the UK where true enthusiasts have them garaged