am i wrong to expect an apology from alcoholic sister

LegacyUser

Hi there
I m going to go anomynous for this. To go back to the start. my sister has always been horrible to me. Since we were children she regularly abused me physically and mentally. I had serious confidence issues as a result of her abuse. I know sisters tease and annoy each other but this was beyond that. As we grew up she regularly stole things from my friends that would call to my house and deny it profusely only for me to find them in her room months later. She also stole many of my belonging s over the years and denied it which was the cause of many rows. She fell out with all her school friends from what I heard from them was due to her stealing money, items and there boyfriends.
She later was involved in a very unhealthy relationship and became an alcoholic. I had many phone calls to go to her rescue and I was on one occasion thrown out of her house by her boyfriend at the time on to the ground. I have been verbally abused by her on many occasions while trying to go to her rescue. I myself was in a very unhealthy relationship when I was younger and had problems breaking up with a violent unstable man and my sisters reaction was to move him in to her house and he had no where to stay. This is after I had to go to the guards about this guy and was threatened physically and verbally by him.
This is just an example of things she had done.
She went to rehab as she was going to lose her job. I saw it as an opportunity for us to have group therapy and try to make her see what she was doing but she lied to the rehab centre and told them that I point blank refused to come which was of course another lie.
She has since left that relationship but has entered another relationship which seems to also be unhealthy from what I can see.
Our relationship is very volatile or non existant we either fight or don't speak . I contacted her to tell her I was going to alanon as I felt affected by her drinking and hurt that is was never recognized and she laughed at me and said oh boo hoo poor you playing the victim again.
I went to alanon but didn't feel comfortable there no offence to the group they were lovely people I just felt maybe I was nt ready for it at the time (I am thinking of going back)
Instead I went to counselling . To be honest I realised through that I had a part to play as well as I was trying to play the rescuer role and maybe control her sub consciously but I can honestly say I never did anything wrong to her intentionally.
My parents are old now and it upsets me that she doesn't help them so I said it to her and this resulted in her exploding on me and a huge row. My father want us to sort out our issues and I told him that honestly for me to do that I need her to at least recognise if not apologise for the things she has done.
I contacted her to say that my father is upset and wants us to try sort it but I need her to recognise the things she has done and she just said oh you playing the victim again its all your fault.
I said I take responsibility for my part in the argument and have apologised for it. but again if there is any hope I need you to see what you have done is wrong and she wont. She keeps saying im playing the victim etc looking for attention and causing trouble and upsetting people including my parents. I basically think she just wants me to keep quiet as its easier for her but I cant because I think its wrong.
My counsellor said she will probably never admit to what she had done is wrong but I need to know am I being unreasonable to expect this as I think there is no grounds for any reconciliation until she does this. Is this unreasonable?

username123

No its not unreasonable, but it is unrealistic.

You can only control your own behaviour. You cannot make people behave as you would like them to behave. Sure, in a perfect soap opera world she would see she was wrong and apologise and you would feel better and all would be well, but we dont live in a world like that.

You are just setting yourself up for disappointment by expecting an alcoholic to meet your demands of appropriate behaviour.

You say there is to be no reconciliation unless she apologises. This is nonsense. A forced apology means nothing. This is like trying to force someone to say they love you. If it doesnt come from the persons heart there is no point.

You need to ask yourself why you need to control your sisters behaviour this way. If there is to be no reconciliation unless she apologises then why can you not accept that maybe that means there is to be no reconciliation? Its hard to accept but sometimes its best to step back from toxic individuals. What possible reconciliation can there be if she is forced to give an apology she doesnt mean just to appease your demands of how she should behave?

You need to do a lot of work on yourself. Go back to Alanon. It saved me when I was pointing the finger of blame, being a victim, having unrealistic expectations etc....

LegacyUser

username123 wrote: »

No its not unreasonable, but it is unrealistic.

You can only control your own behaviour. You cannot make people behave as you would like them to behave. Sure, in a perfect soap opera world she would see she was wrong and apologise and you would feel better and all would be well, but we dont live in a world like that.

You are just setting yourself up for disappointment by expecting an alcoholic to meet your demands of appropriate behaviour.

You say there is to be no reconciliation unless she apologises. This is nonsense. A forced apology means nothing. This is like trying to force someone to say they love you. If it doesnt come from the persons heart there is no point.

You need to ask yourself why you need to control your sisters behaviour this way. If there is to be no reconciliation unless she apologises then why can you not accept that maybe that means there is to be no reconciliation? Its hard to accept but sometimes its best to step back from toxic individuals. What possible reconciliation can there be if she is forced to give an apology she doesnt mean just to appease your demands of how she should behave?

You need to do a lot of work on yourself. Go back to Alanon. It saved me when I was pointing the finger of blame, being a victim, having unrealistic expectations etc....

Thanks fory youreply. I really see what your saying. I suppose it s because our parents want us to reconcile our differences I have said I cant do that unless she recognises it was wrong. I am not really demanding an apology but to avoid further hurt I need to know she realises he hurt me. when I try to tell her she has hurt me she just laughs at me and ridicules me I just understand how someone can be so thoughtless and lack empathy. That's why we will never get on I suppose !

seamus

Sometimes reconciliation isn't about everyone apologising for past transgressions, hugging it out and being weeping and forgiving.

Something reconciliation is about saying, "You know what? That's all in the past. Let's forget any of that ever happened, everyone had a sh1tty time of it. Instead let's move forward fresh and new, agree to try and build something not based on tit-for-tat arguments from the past."

By demanding an apology, you may be in the right in principle, but you're blocking any chance of reconciling because you're trying to "win" the relationship overall. As said above, you're not being unreasonable, but you are being unrealistic.

Again, as said above, you need more work on yourself. You need to learn to accept that you can only control your behaviour and that often you just have to let things drop, that no matter how much a person may be in the right, they don't always get the right outcome. Because reality just isn't fair.

If you can learn to put her behaviour in the past and stop allowing it to block reconciliation, then you can say, "I'm here and ready to reconcile when you are. I want nothing from you except the agreement that the past is dead and buried". Over time then if you manage to become at least on decent talking terms, she may come to realise the wrongs she's done and apologise for them. But if you do reconciliation right, it won't matter to you by then because you'll have learned to let it go.
For as long as you hold onto your need for an apology, you will never be able to move on.

Big Bag of Chips

You say your parents are putting pressure on you to reconcile. Are they putting the same pressure on her, or are they picking on you because you're the easier target of the two?

I get the feeling that the expect you to forgive everything and be nice to her, regardless of her behaviour, because they know she is an alcoholic. They know she is wrong, and they know she won't just sort herself out. So they are looking to you, "the sensible one" to sort it all out instead.

I think instead of trying to talk to your sister, you need to talk to your parents. You need to get them to see that nothing you do or say will cure your sister. It's down to her.

Have they ever gone to Al-Anon, themselves?

username123

Both the above posters make great points.

If there was no parental pressure to reconcile, would you be bothered to do so at all? It sounds like your parents have unrealistic expectations tbh!

Ever wonder why you want to control someone's behaviour? I guess that's what your parents have taught you, as they are trying to control yours. Tell them to butt out, it's not their relationship to interfere with.

And tell them about Alanon. It's best if everyone has the same understanding of alcoholism and people are not working at cross purposes.

Btw, my brother has a lot of your sisters behaviours, so I have been estranged from him for years now. I don't feel bad about it or need him to apologise, I just feel glad that its a toxic influence no longer in my life. I am completely disinterested in him, but I don't feel hate or anger, I just don't care.

Stavro Mueller

You're all being unrealistic in your own ways. Your sister has been demonstrating this sort of behaviour since she was a child. Did your parents try to do anything when you were kids and she was treating you as you described? They'll have known something was going on.

At this stage you do need to pull back and accept that she is what she is. Someone who hates you and will take any opportunity she can to wound you. You are better off without someone like that in your life. You need to work on yourself and move on with your own life.

LegacyUser

seamus wrote: »

Sometimes reconciliation isn't about everyone apologising for past transgressions, hugging it out and being weeping and forgiving.

Something reconciliation is about saying, "You know what? That's all in the past. Let's forget any of that ever happened, everyone had a sh1tty time of it. Instead let's move forward fresh and new, agree to try and build something not based on tit-for-tat arguments from the past."

By demanding an apology, you may be in the right in principle, but you're blocking any chance of reconciling because you're trying to "win" the relationship overall. As said above, you're not being unreasonable, but you are being unrealistic.

Again, as said above, you need more work on yourself. You need to learn to accept that you can only control your behaviour and that often you just have to let things drop, that no matter how much a person may be in the right, they don't always get the right outcome. Because reality just isn't fair.

If you can learn to put her behaviour in the past and stop allowing it to block reconciliation, then you can say, "I'm here and ready to reconcile when you are. I want nothing from you except the agreement that the past is dead and buried". Over time then if you manage to become at least on decent talking terms, she may come to realise the wrongs she's done and apologise for them. But if you do reconciliation right, it won't matter to you by then because you'll have learned to let it go.
For as long as you hold onto your need for an apology, you will never be able to move on.

I agree totally with what your are saying. I realise I have been trying to change her or at least make her see her actions are wrong. I don't understand how she went through rehab and still behaves like this. It is obvious she has nt finished her twelve steps or maybe even started them. I would like to put everything in the past but anytime we do this it just ends up in another argument as she will ask me for money when I refuse she will say oh your such a bla di bla etc.. threaten me and try to emotionally blackmail me my saying she will have to get it from my parents so...I would love to say lets put everything in the past but as dr phil says past behaviour is the best indicator of future behaviour and even if she is not drinking which I don't know if she is she is still a very damaged and unhealthy person to be around.. my father rang me so upset asking is it something he or they did to make her be like this I didn't have the heart to tell him we all had a part to play in it.. my parents used to compare us to each other.. they would compare me to her and her to me.. I let it float over my head but she obviously has serious issues with it... I realise it is not just me as her friends don't speak with her.. when she hurts them she just denies it and wont take responsibility for herself but its easy for them to walk away they are not related to her.. I went to an alanon meeting last night.. I felt a small urge inside me to start telling people that are suffering what to do... of course I didn't but I realise its something I need to work on for myself... thanks for your post. x

LegacyUser

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

You say your parents are putting pressure on you to reconcile. Are they putting the same pressure on her, or are they picking on you because you're the easier target of the two?

I get the feeling that the expect you to forgive everything and be nice to her, regardless of her behaviour, because they know she is an alcoholic. They know she is wrong, and they know she won't just sort herself out. So they are looking to you, "the sensible one" to sort it all out instead.

I think instead of trying to talk to your sister, you need to talk to your parents. You need to get them to see that nothing you do or say will cure your sister. It's down to her.

Have they ever gone to Al-Anon, themselves?

I don't think they have said anything to her as she would literally just eat there heads off . She is not a reasonable person. My parents wouldn't go to alanon as they like to brush problems under the carpet which has obviously contributed to my dysfunctional family. I don't think my sister even realises our family is dysfunctional she is so in denial about everything in her life. They don't like to talk about things . My dad is somebit more emotional that my mother as all my mother is forget about that . don't mind that now your only worrying yourself.. I feel like screaming about how messed up everything is that i appear to be the troublemaker when i bring things to light as everyone is happy with their head s in the sand..

LegacyUser

Thanks cymbaline and username also.
I get what yere saying. Yes my parents are controlling me to some extent. Its hard cos there old now i really don't want to go stirring up any more trouble trying to make them see there part in this system. I need to work on myself i suppose. I have been trying to make her see she is wrong and it s not going to happen. Id like to start again but it would just be the same problems again so maybe its best for us to stay out of each other s lives altogether. Thanks

username123

You've really taken on the role of the people pleaser and fixer of the family. It's a weighty responsibility. And one you don't need to take on.

It's important not to think in extremes, just concentrate on trying to fix yourself one day at a time.

LegacyUser

username123 wrote: »

You've really taken on the role of the people pleaser and fixer of the family. It's a weighty responsibility. And one you don't need to take on.

It's important not to think in extremes, just concentrate on trying to fix yourself one day at a time.

Yup I have a lot of work to do. It would be easier if my parents were younger and I wouldn't have to worry about things so much. I actually decided today to let go of everything and try to focus on myself and now I have missed calls from her. I don't know if she wants to reconcile or what I ll leave it a few days to get my head together. I don't think she had an epiphany overnight . Thanks x

LegacyUser

So the only reason she contacted me was to tell me we should pretend to have sorted out our difference. I told her I wont be pretending anything I will look after my I think pretending is only adding to the problem myself ?

username123

Why did you engage with her? I thought you were going to leave it a few days?

Of course you don't have to pretend anything, but for your own peace of mind it's not worth getting into a confrontation over it. Simply tell her she is free to behave as she chooses.

LegacyUser

i suppose some small part of me wanted to hear what she had to say. She just wants to pretend . she said im an attention seeker and she referred to the night her ex through me out of the house physically while they were fighting was because I was annoying them. that's her way of thinking and nothing is going to change that. I don't care what she does anymore im sad I ve lost my sister but if she only brings trouble to my life then Im better off. She said she doesn't know why my boyfriend doesn't sort me out for causing trouble. She actually think s I gave out to her for not looking after my parents to cause trouble and seek attention. I most definitely can do without this attention in my life in future. Ill let things die down now for a few days move on from the things she has done and accept things and look after my own relationship with my parents that s all I can do now. thanks very much for your support and all the messages. It means a lot xxx

username123

Look, it's not easy to change normal behaviours, but that's what you need to do to save yourself from this toxic person. That's why it's hard. Until you get to a point where you actually don't want to hear what she has to say, you are still too involved.

Matteroffact

The way I see it your sister won't change if you keep on pointing out her flaws. You are putting her on the defensive and she doesn't like it. While I agree with you that she has been obnoxious in the past I feel that if you can zone in on her good points (if there are any) and express delight if she does something nice you will get far more out of her. If you can make her feel good about herself in any way at all she will improve from that point onwards. Success breeds success and if she feels that she is being appreciated for something she does it will make her want to please people all the more. At the moment she is getting negative feedback and this is making her want to give up and just continue annoying everyone. Try genuinely praising her for something and watch her glow.

I would not insist on any kind of an apology but if you build up her confidence this might come at a later stage. I wish you the best of luck.

LegacyUser

Matteroffact wrote: »

The way I see it your sister won't change if you keep on pointing out her flaws. You are putting her on the defensive and she doesn't like it. While I agree with you that she has been obnoxious in the past I feel that if you can zone in on her good points (if there are any) and express delight if she does something nice you will get far more out of her. If you can make her feel good about herself in any way at all she will improve from that point onwards. Success breeds success and if she feels that she is being appreciated for something she does it will make her want to please people all the more. At the moment she is getting negative feedback and this is making her want to give up and just continue annoying everyone. Try genuinely praising her for something and watch her glow.

I would not insist on any kind of an apology but if you build up her confidence this might come at a later stage. I wish you the best of luck.

I see what your saying with the whole positive reinforcement thing and I know it works but at this time I cant point out one good thing about her. I have given up on the idea of her admitting to things and decided to let it all go. All I do is get rid of the baggage and maybe in time ill be able to manage a friendly hello because at the moment when I meet her there is a lot of baggage hanging around me. I honestly couldn't think of one good thing to say to her at the moment but thanks for your reply.

Defiler Of The Coffin

OP, you sound really jaded. For the sake of your own sanity I think you need to take a break from all the drama and look after your own well being. There's nothing more you can really do for your sister at this stage so best to just let it go for now. It's not your responsibility to fix things for your parents either. It won't be easy but the sooner you detach yourself from all this the better

LegacyUser

Defiler Of The Coffin wrote: »

OP, you sound really jaded. For the sake of your own sanity I think you need to take a break from all the drama and look after your own well being. There's nothing more you can really do for your sister at this stage so best to just let it go for now. It's not your responsibility to fix things for your parents either. It won't be easy but the sooner you detach yourself from all this the better

thanks very much for your post. Jaded is right. I actually had to scream outloud in my car today on my own on a quiet road which is kinda crazy. I like what another poster said that "as long as I want to hear what she has to say I am too involved" . I really need to detach either with or without love. My dad want s the two of us to sit down together I really don't think this would work unless there is a professional mediator and I m not being dramatic here! Thanks detaching sounds good at the moment im looking forward to some peace in my life.

Stavro Mueller

I'm glad you're trying to take a step back. On some levels I'm amazed at how much effort you've put into this. You're like a someone in a zoo who keeps sticking their arm into the lion's cage even though the lion attacks them every time and has shredded their arm.

You're right to think that your father's idea won't work. Your sister's hatred of you and her general outlook on life is hard-wired into her. Even mediation won't work unless both parties want the same end result. I'm not sure she does. All she wants is your dad to get off her back and stop pestering her about this.

username123

I was thinking about this today, I remember so well being in a similar situation as the OP.

Something that occurred to me is that you actually have to take on some of the characteristics of the alcoholic. They are selfish. They are self centred. They really only care about themselves.

You have to get more like that. You have to start putting yourself first - even if it pee's off the other person or other people. And they will resist change. They will want you back in your box because its easier when everyone plays their assigned roles.

Have a read of this - I often post it here for people who are dealing with alcoholism. It helps to see why everyone acts the way they do.
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/friends-family-alcoholics/137214-alcoholism-merry-go-round-named-denial.html

LegacyUser

thanks cymbaline and username.. and all the other poster too!
its back to the counsellor for me. I realise how insane it is trying to fix a seriously dysfunctional family all I can do is deal with my part now. I must have been mad trying to sort out this mess !

username123

Dysfunctional family wrote: »

thanks cymbaline and username.. and all the other poster too!
its back to the counsellor for me. I realise how insane it is trying to fix a seriously dysfunctional family all I can do is deal with my part now. I must have been mad trying to sort out this mess !

That realisation is such a huge step forward. You will look back and see you started getting better from the time you accepted that you cannot fix other people.

LegacyUser

username123 wrote: »

That realisation is such a huge step forward. You will look back and see you started getting better from the time you accepted that you cannot fix other people.

feeling better already.my dad has arranged a meeting next week im gonna leave it till the week after until im a bit stronger and more focused on my myself. Ill be going to my counsellor in between as well I can agree to lay down the swords but not let her back into my life at the same time (I hope)