the jump from amateur to paid work

myothername

apologies in advance if posted in wrong place

Im currently stuck in a dilema & really unsure what to do. Ive always been a believer in the "gut" feeling but this "gut" feeling could cost me dearly if its wrong!!

Opportunity to take voluntary redunancy pay off isnt fantastic enough to kick start me but not enough to sustain my income for very long. I have an option to rent studio space which wont cost me in rates etc. Ive never done this for money, but im fairly confident behind the camera & was awarded a distinction for my work.

In my local area there are what i would class as a couple of high end photographers charging 250-300 per session no prints these are extra. Then we have one arrogant fella who i have no idea how he gets work his attitude stinks & his work is average to say the least. My question is this. Is there a call for an "inbetweener" out there, or do people just generally go with the cream of the crop? is this why there are not any people like me doing this full time?? Im based in the midlands in a small enough town, so no huge doorstep target market like a city. Id like to concentrate on family portraiture & seasonal themes, also newborns. Ive no real interest in weddings at the moment & im honest & practical enough to say im not quite there yet.

For the prices i think are fair for my standard of work & for my time Id need to pull in 5 sessions a week to cover my existing salary. For anyone pro here would you tell me how many sessions a week you would condsider a good week??

My job is in the public service, i would struggle to get the same salary in the private sector if it didnt work out & i am the only earner in the house. My heart is telling me go for it, take the risk, my head is telling me there is a gap there, but its also questioning why is the gap there!!! head also says what if it backfires, im left jobless, in a worse position im in now, but if it works ill be doing something i love everyday.

Help sorry for the looooong post too!!

Paulw

You have to consider a lot more than just rental costs.

Camera gear costs, insurance costs, advertising costs, etc. And then you have to consider your tax implications too.

Being a photographer and taking good photos is only one part of it all. You also have to consider the whole business side of it.

myothername

ya this is one of my debates too, but this space will only cost me €60 per weekend good location plenty of free off street parking. Im rural based so was thinking it would be better to have some place central, also have 5 kids & no designated room in my house, ive tried during portfolio building free sessions to do indoor stuff at home but its near on impossible to keep my "munchkins" away!! would you disagree & go the portable studio route or solely location work?

Pricewise I was thinking €150 for an aprox 45 min session & giving some digitals & 1 10x8 print with option to buy more? im aiming at the normal average family with an average income who woudlnt nor couldnt stretch to anymore yet still want some nice family shots for their home. 1 session Im €90 up & would hope for more than that!!
Other option is partime work 4.5 days full time job, make appointments for friday afternoons & sundays or saturdays still have the other day for family time, but then you're throwing evenign into the mix for editing. I think id be burnt out in no time at all even with just a few sessions a week. God i wish someone would just make up my mind for me & be done with it

myothername

Hi paul.
yep insurance & advertising yes im currenlty looking at. Gear I have enough to start off for the type of photography i want to do. Tax a new ltd. company is tax free for the first 3 years then 12.5% thereafter so thats the route Ill head down.

myothername

cause sole traders do not get 3 years tax free & if a company goes into liquidation your personal assets ie. your home, are not at risk, sole traders are. For me personally, if i choose to stay on at work & do this part time as a sole trader, id be taxed entirely at 41% immediately, as opposed to 12.5% after 3 years of no tax.

superflyninja

myothername wrote: »

cause sole traders do not get 3 years tax free & if a company goes into liquidation your personal assets ie. your home, are not at risk, sole traders are. For me personally, if i choose to stay on at work & do this part time as a sole trader, id be taxed entirely at 41% immediately, as opposed to 12.5% after 3 years of no tax.

so if you are in full time employment and start doing some shots as a sole trader on the side, you are liable for 41% tax? Thats just on the photography side I presume?

Macer123

myothername wrote: »

cause sole traders do not get 3 years tax free & if a company goes into liquidation your personal assets ie. your home, are not at risk, sole traders are. For me personally, if i choose to stay on at work & do this part time as a sole trader, id be taxed entirely at 41% immediately, as opposed to 12.5% after 3 years of no tax.

You need to get some tax advice. If you draw a salary from the company it will be subject to income tax at any stage in the companies formation. The profits in the company (after salary) will be subject to corporation tax.

dinneenp

Taken from here

CinSoots

superflyninja wrote: »

so if you are in full time employment and start doing some shots as a sole trader on the side, you are liable for 41% tax? Thats just on the photography side I presume?

I wish it was 41% :eek: 41% + USC + PRSI = 53% Obviously this is only on the profit you make so all your expenses are taken into account but it's still a mighty whack.

Above you mention that you "ONLY" need 5 sessions a week to cover your existing salary. Unfortunately you need to understand you are running a business and your salary is only a small portion of the actual costs of running a business. You will need an awful lot more of a turnover to replicate your current salary.

The business needs to be able to pay your taxes, your accountant, your suppliers, your rent, your insurance, your equipment, cover errors, stock, samples, advertising, marketing etc. etc. etc and then finally YOU!

Best of luck with it but if I were you I wouldn't be packing any fulltime job just yet.

myothername

i have gotten advice, from a chartered accountant thanks, there are legal ways & means, expenses etc. etc.

yes as a sole trader all my tax credits are used for my full time job where i also pay a % at 41% so every penny i earn in photography will be taxed at 41%

Yes of course im thinking of both???? theres a huge percentage of new businesses fail within their first 5 years. Id be worried for someone who is not thinking of the other side with odds like that. Im not about to head into something giving almost half of it to the revenue from the off & also have my house on the line to boot like?

thank you but Im not understanding the post of the pie charts?

Nor did i state "ONLY" 5 sessions a week, or say thats all the money id need to be bringing in. Jesus talk about being spoken down to.

Paulw

myothername wrote: »

thank you but Im not understanding the post of the pie charts?

Nor did i state "ONLY" 5 sessions a week, or say thats all the money id need to be bringing in. Jesus talk about being spoken down to.

The pie chart shows that a photography business ia more about the business than about the photography. Most people think that being a professional photographer means you spend most of your time taking photos, which is far from the truth.

I don't think people are speaking down to you, but rather trying to show you that it's not as simple as you seem to give the impression that you think it is. There is a hell of a lot of work, of stress, of building the business before you even think about breaking even, never mind making a good salary for yourself.

I don't know of many rich photographers, but I do know many who work their asses off just to make ends meat and cover their bills.

gloobag

I run my own studio in Dublin City Centre and it's a struggle to make 5 portrait sessions in the one week. My target market is a bit different to yours, and thankfully portraits isn't really my main earner (but it is part of my business), but that might give you an idea of how tough it is out there.

Your target market of family portraits in a small town is already ridiculously over saturated. You've mentioned three more experienced/established photographers in your area. Whether you like their work or not is irrelevant. They're there, and they've been there longer than you. If they're still in business, then that means they must have long lasting relationships with the very same clients you will be targeting. Also, there are thousands of guys/girls in this country with a Canon 1000D and a Facebook page that can and will severely undercut your proposed pricing. People will drive a few miles for what they think is a bargain. Trust me.

myothername

I dont think being self employed is simple or easy at all, whatever sector you're in, my parents have been self employed almost their entire adult lives & i dont see how from 1 or 2 posts you could think i do.

I dont have a ridiculous idea that photography is glamorous easy money, its not even glamorous for an enthusiast, nor do i expect to make to a million. All im doing is exploring the option to make an average wage which includes an element of something i love, as opposed to something i dont.

None of you answered any of my actual questions, which, had nothing to do with tax or deductions or expenses, or work involved in running a photography business, just seem quick to judge my knowledge or lack thereof of "business"

Having said that, thank you for your time all the same.

CinSoots

I'd get a new accountant if he told you that you will be taxed at 41%. You have to add USC and PRSI to that too, trust me on this, I've paid enough of it.

I wasn't speaking down to you - I was giving you advice, I run a few different businesses so I was explaining to you that there are a hundred and one costs that you need to take into account plus hidden costs before you can even contemplate paying yourself.

What I mean by a hidden cost is for example, in a years time you decide you have €2K in savings to buy a new camera and have allowed for this in your budget so you buy it. Wait a minute, your current older version of Photoshop won't read the new files. You now need to shell out for that but this wasn't in the budget.

In my opinion at €150 a go you're going to need serious volume to make a living and outside of Dublin I just can't see that working, I'm sure it does somewhere but that wouldn't be the norm.

You can take or leave it, it makes no odds to me. If you want flowers and pretty stories about success then I'll stop talking

myothername

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

excuse me im on a days leave today & ive already told you i pay 41% tax so effectively i pay my own wages!! 9 years in the public sector the rest of it in the private since i was 16 years old. You absolute @rse.

myothername

gloobag wrote: »

I run my own studio in Dublin City Centre and it's a struggle to make 5 portrait sessions in the one week. My target market is a bit different to yours, and thankfully portraits isn't really my main earner (but it is part of my business), but that might give you an idea of how tough it is out there.

Your target market of family portraits in a small town is already ridiculously over saturated. You've mentioned three more experienced/established photographers in your area. Whether you like their work or not is irrelevant. They're there, and they've been there longer than you. If they're still in business, then that means they must have long lasting relationships with the very same clients you will be targeting. Also, there are thousands of guys/girls in this country with a Canon 1000D and a Facebook page that can and will severely undercut your proposed pricing. People will drive a few miles for what they think is a bargain. Trust me.

Thank you very much, that is really helpful, & exactly the kind of answer I was looking for.

dirtyghettokid

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

myothername wrote: »

You absolute @rse.

There'll be no more of that attitude on here, thanks very much. If there is, there could be red cards handed out, and/or bans.

/mod note

CinSoots

myothername wrote: »

None of you answered any of my actual questions

OK then. Forget about the quality of your work, to an extent that doesn't really matter and forget about the other three guys. They are not your customers.

Should you take the leap? At your current business model of €150 a pop for family portraits then I would say 100% NO. You will fail, that's a certainty in small town Ireland because you will not have the custom to live. Even in a city of >1 million people Gloobag above has told you that 5 a week is hard and you can be sure he's not charging €150 a go.

The only way you can succeed is by having something completely different at a price people will pay and €150 sessions is no different from the lady on facebook doing it for €50.

And sure if we knew what that was wouldn't we all be doing it!!!!!!!!!!

gloobag

CinSoots wrote: »

Even in a city of >1 million people Gloobag above has told you that 5 a week is hard and you can be sure he's not charging €150 a go.

Um, I actually charge more than that

myothername wrote: »

Thank you very much, that is really helpful, & exactly the kind of answer I was looking for.

OP, sorry if my post came a across as trying to dissuade you from following this path. I was really just trying to point out that it would be a bit of an uphill struggle (it is for all of us these days :rolleyes:) based on the info you provided.

I was in a slightly similar situation to you a few years ago. Hated my job, loved photography. Was made redundant (not voluntary) and decided to make a go of it. Thought I knew it all at first and soon figured out I hadn't bloody clue. Made a **** load of mistakes both creatively and in the business sense (and still do), and I'd say it's only recently that the fog has started to lift and I'm starting to see things clearly. Still constantly skint though

If you're anything like me and the other working photographers I know here in Dublin, if you chose to go down this path, your love for the actual photography will be tested constantly. But it's the love of the craft that will keep you going even when you can't scrape enough change out of your pocket for a can of Coke and a Wispa.

It does get better though. If you're good enough, and have a level head on your shoulders, you're already miles ahead of the average Facebook photographer with their kit lens and ****ty Wix.com built website. Take my advise though. Don't go buying any new gear unless it's absolutely essential. You're better off investing in marketing, branding and education (business/marketing/photography).

CinSoots

gloobag wrote: »

Um, I actually charge more than that

Thats what I said

gloobag

CinSoots wrote: »

Thats what I said

Damn, I just outed myself as not believing I'm worth more than €150 a pop

superflyninja

Hmmmm all that paints a very bleak picture. Ive got most of the equipment I need and space to do some portrait stuff (not really had a chance to practice yet though) and was aiming to try and get some paid work in order to keep me in equipment. Ive spent more time researching marketing etc than actually taking photos and my website is only a shell until i actually put up the real one. Reading this thread ALMOST makes me want to not bother trying.

CinSoots

It is a very bleak picture

People who take pictures are ten a penny so you need to differentiate yourself from everyone else. However if you pretty much forget about the actual photography and put most of your time and effort in the running the business and marketing then it CAN work.

superflyninja

How do you differentiate yourself, if not through your photos?

AnCatDubh

A very basic question of starting your own business (forget its photography for a moment) - What has your market research told you about your prospects? -- there's no point in people on this forum answering that for you. It won't affect us. The basics - Is there a market? Will they be willing to pay? How much are they willing to pay. Will they do repeat business with you if they like what you offer? How are you going to be different to anyone else in the area.

You have eliminated events/weddings - I would have thought this was bread and butter stuff, especially if you aren't smack in the middle of a major population center. Though the portrait business is nice when you can get it, a wedding (or two if you are lucky) in a week will cover at least a decent portion of the bills.

I don't want to be discouraging but unless you are sure of your market then its a very risky move - not undoable, but i've been burned before not knowing the market I was approaching (or actually, that was being naive about a particular market that I thought I knew). You can convince yourself of anything particularly if there is a cherry floating in front of you (VR) which is tempting. That's why i'm a bit hung up on your market - knowing it, having it right, being honest with yourself about it.

The other approach, though filled with risk, is just do it. Startup and work through getting / creating a market. High risk, very challenging, and in fairness very rewarding if it goes right for you. Disaster if it doesn't but that's the other side of the coin. As you've described it, I'm not certain that you want to be in a risk environment (I think you spoke about the VR sustaining only for so long). Here is where you need to make sure the market is there to pick you up.

Do the figures and be realistic.

CinSoots

superflyninja wrote: »

How do you differentiate yourself, if not through your photos?

If we knew the answer to this we'd all be millionaires!!!

ditpaintball

There is lots of fantastic course and advice for people wondering about the exact same questions over on whttp://www.creativelive.com/ Great content there on both the business side of photographer and on the technical side.

On the 41% tax rate... that will only be if you're earning enough... if you do on your first year, congrats!. I am a sole trader and am starting my 3rd year. I pay very little taxes at the minute because the expenses are so high and off set income. Sure as a company you may get tax free for 3 years, but then you have to pay an accountant €1000 just to sign off accounts. As a sole trader, I do all my own accounts and VAT and submit them on the ROS website. easy.

The OP mentions that there are high end photographers in the area and your thinking about coming in at the middle. Do you really want to spend the time and effort to change career and then only come in at the mid-range? If your going to do it, why not aim high and be a high end photographer? If your missing skills - upskill. If your missing clients - market.