NR's affecting CSS and Handicaps

peepee

How are NR cards factored into calculating CSS? Or are they ignored?

I've played a few scratch cups this year and many of the guys i've played with have had huge scores but don't return their cards.

Seve OB

peepee wrote: »

How are NR cards factored into calculating CSS? Or are they ignored?

I've played a few scratch cups this year and many of the guys i've played with have had huge scores but don't return their cards.

For the handicap Clause 19 adjustment is in effect

basically a hole where you have a NR - computer gives you the lowest possible score that would merit you 0 points in a stapleford competition.

Eg. 18 handicapper playing a par 4.. obviously has 1 shot, shoots a 10 or NR. Score for handicap is 6.



I'm not actually sure about CSS, but I would guess they use the same principle. it is pointless, for eg as mentioned in earlier thread today sticking in a 42 for a hole... bring the CSS way up, and unfairly down if there were a load of NR's on the hole

realgolfgeek

The CSS is based only on returned cards.
In reality, obviously, the CSS should be higher if 10 people didn't bother returning the cards.
Muppets, PUT IN YOUR CARDS, you're going to get .1 back anyway !!

matt-dublin

majority of players who don't return cards a category 4 anyway and they don't contribute to CSS.

the 2 and 3 players should always return a card. Potentially a handicap committee could cut someone with a high amount of NRs for maintaining their handicap.

BraveDonut

Had a situation a few weeks back where I went in after 9 as I had hurt my back. I was pretty miserable, so I went straight to the car and home, without returning my card. This is the first and only time I have either walked off early or not returned a card.
When I checked golfnet, I saw that I had been given the 0.1, but then it had been taken away.
I was kinda happy because I don't want 0.1's - but I felt bad as I had kept my handicap lower artificially.

Is this normal?

matt-dublin

not usually, normally you would get the .1 anyway.

did you tell someone in the club that you had hurt your back as they might have cleared it.

ssbob

realgolfgeek wrote: »

The CSS is based only on returned cards.
In reality, obviously, the CSS should be higher if 10 people didn't bother returning the cards.
Muppets, PUT IN YOUR CARDS, you're going to get .1 back anyway !!

Agreed but maybe would not have been as blunt as you!:P

matt-dublin wrote: »

majority of players who don't return cards a category 4 anyway and they don't contribute to CSS.

Has not been my experience, it has been right across the board, when a lad feels he is doing crap, he just rips up the card.

There needs to be a rule whereby if you don't return your card then you can't play comps for a month or something, there should be no reason not to return a card, even if you forgot to hand it in, you could still drop it in the following day or something.....

matt-dublin

your committee can enter a local rule to this affect.

ssbob

matt-dublin wrote: »

your committee can enter a local rule to this affect.

We got a mail from the committee earlier in the year threatening action and AFAIK it helped for a while but lately it appears we are gone back to the same again, its a cycle that happens in our club anyway and I would imagine its going to continue.

JIdontknow

Just on this topic guys, sorry for hijacking thread. I am a new member this year to a club, and they have the computer scorecard input system. For stableford comps, if I scratch a hole, should I then press the NR for this hole, or just input a score one above my scratch, example playing off 18, scratch par 3 hole (should I input 6, or NR, technically I didn't get a 6, but I read somewhere that NR can affect CSS). Does the NR have any bearing on css or as explained above if I understand correctly does the NR automatically in the background complete this action of inputting one above scratch for the hole?

matt-dublin

you should enter 0 for a scratched hole

ernieprice

NR's for category 1,2 and 3 players are used in calculating the CSS of a competition. At end of year review in Leinster, the Leinster Branch of the GUI look at players with NR's and in some cases will propose to clubs to cut players handicaps accordingly (This was the case in my club in 2012), For information on calculating CSS go to

Online CONGU UHS Manual

www.congu.com/online_version.htm and download the manual (see page 53)‎













‎

Russman

matt-dublin wrote: »

majority of players who don't return cards a category 4 anyway.

I don't think this is necessarily true.
Plenty of Cat 1 players don't return cards in order to keep their handicaps low. One of the biggest problems facing the "admin" side of golf IMO.

To the Op, I think the NRs that are entered on the computer do impact the CSS as there is a calculation of the number of scores in a certain range as a proportion of the total. As far as I know, and I'm open to correction, but NRs that are "returned" are fine, in terms of giving an accurate CSS.

I did a very unscientific count in our place a few weeks ago, comparing the number of entries in the Competition Book against the number of cards returned on Howdidido and, after picking 10 random dates throughout the summer, it shows roughly 20-25% of the field don't return cards on a Saturday. I was on the Competitions Committee a few years ago and it was the same scenario.

The appetite isn't there to deal with it, and in fairness, I can't really blame amateur volunteers for not wanting to spend x amount of hours etc on more work. You're there late on a Sunday night doing cards and results, could you really be ar$ed ticking off a list of entries against cards ?

realgolfgeek

Russman wrote: »

The appetite isn't there to deal with it, and in fairness, I can't really blame amateur volunteers for not wanting to spend x amount of hours etc on more work. You're there late on a Sunday night doing cards and results, could you really be ar$ed ticking off a list of entries against cards ?

That's the thing that annoys me. In this day and age this should be a piece of p1ss if it's not already available.
The volunteers or whoever is doing the cards after a competition, go through the cards and do whatever they do.
Surely they should be able to run off a report to say, ok players X, Y and Z signed into the competition, but players Y,Z did not enter in their scores.

An automated email or sms should be sent to these guys giving them 72 hours to come back with a reason as to why they didn't return cards (Player could have been injured, or some emergency may have come up).
For those with no excuse, or do not come back within that timeframe, should be named and shamed, and banned from any competition for 1 month.

I'm just giving numbers and examples here, but surely it can't be that difficult to deal with. We can send man to the moon, have beautiful pga shot tracker, trackman, and something as simple as this still exists ?!

I also believe it shouldn't be a case of one club handles it one way, and another handles it another .... The GUI should enforce clubs to do it a certain way.

ernieprice

On the system our club uses I have the option of "View NR'S". Prior to closing the competition I will always check the list, check for the missing cards and enter them into computer. I will then speak to the person/persons concerned when I see them. If a player has a NR and actually fails to submit a card I will delete them completely from the competition thereby not giving them the .1. Again I will speak to the people concerned. This has now almost completely stopped.

matt-dublin

Russman wrote: »

I don't think this is necessarily true.
Plenty of Cat 1 players don't return cards in order to keep their handicaps low. One of the biggest problems facing the "admin" side of golf IMO.

To the Op, I think the NRs that are entered on the computer do impact the CSS as there is a calculation of the number of scores in a certain range as a proportion of the total. As far as I know, and I'm open to correction, but NRs that are "returned" are fine, in terms of giving an accurate CSS.

I did a very unscientific count in our place a few weeks ago, comparing the number of entries in the Competition Book against the number of cards returned on Howdidido and, after picking 10 random dates throughout the summer, it shows roughly 20-25% of the field don't return cards on a Saturday. I was on the Competitions Committee a few years ago and it was the same scenario.

The appetite isn't there to deal with it, and in fairness, I can't really blame amateur volunteers for not wanting to spend x amount of hours etc on more work. You're there late on a Sunday night doing cards and results, could you really be ar$ed ticking off a list of entries against cards ?

Don't cat 1 players get a point 1 back for nr's?

peepee

I did a very unscientific count in our place a few weeks ago, comparing the number of entries in the Competition Book against the number of cards returned on Howdidido and, after picking 10 random dates throughout the summer, it shows roughly 20-25% of the field don't return cards on a Saturday.

Thats quite a big number. No one i've ever played with has NR their card because they've scored well. Its always the opposite. Typically in the 20's stableford.

If 100 people play a comp and 20 dont return a card because they score say 6-10 lower than their handicap how big a difference would that make to SS????

Russman

matt-dublin wrote: »

Don't cat 1 players get a point 1 back for nr's?

If the card simply isn't returned at all then, no.
If they enter the card on the computer and, say its strokes, and they NR on a given hole, then, yes.
Effectively strokes is the only format you can actually "return" an NR, if you know what I mean.

Russman

realgolfgeek wrote: »

That's the thing that annoys me. In this day and age this should be a piece of p1ss if it's not already available.
The volunteers or whoever is doing the cards after a competition, go through the cards and do whatever they do.
Surely they should be able to run off a report to say, ok players X, Y and Z signed into the competition, but players Y,Z did not enter in their scores.

An automated email or sms should be sent to these guys giving them 72 hours to come back with a reason as to why they didn't return cards (Player could have been injured, or some emergency may have come up).
For those with no excuse, or do not come back within that timeframe, should be named and shamed, and banned from any competition for 1 month.

I'm just giving numbers and examples here, but surely it can't be that difficult to deal with. We can send man to the moon, have beautiful pga shot tracker, trackman, and something as simple as this still exists ?!

I also believe it shouldn't be a case of one club handles it one way, and another handles it another .... The GUI should enforce clubs to do it a certain way.

I agree 100%

The problem is guys not actually entering the competition on the computer. In our place the computer terminal isn't in the pro shop where you pay and sign in, so guys can sign the book, pay their money and, if they want, decide to "enter" or not after their round. A poor set up indeed, but there you go.

Some clubs have a printer that prints out your card when you enter and you can't get a card without entering, which nips it in the bud. Many also have a 3 strikes rule, whereby 3 cards not entered means a handicap suspension for, say, a month.

Again, the real issue is the appetite to deal with it IMO.

I'd be on the fence with regard to automated e-mails or SMSs. The last thing the vast, vast majority of weekend golfers want is something like the threat of a big brother text or e-mail. I think it would make their pastime a little bit like school and ever so slightly take something from their enjoyment of golf.
I think the scenario of, for example, some 70 yr old who may have simply driven home with his card in his back pocket, getting a questioning text or mail, is a little too much IMO.

mag

Russman wrote: »

If the card simply isn't returned at all then, no.
If they enter the card on the computer and, say its strokes, and they NR on a given hole, then, yes.
Effectively strokes is the only format you can actually "return" an NR, if you know what I mean.

in our club cat1's get 0.1 for nrs (no card posted). i really dont understand why every club wouldnt implement that. this type of stuff has artifically low cat1s and cricket scores in provincials

TRS30

Russman wrote: »

I agree 100%

Some clubs have a printer that prints out your card when you enter and you can't get a card without entering, which nips it in the bud. Many also have a 3 strikes rule, whereby 3 cards not entered means a handicap suspension for, say, a month.

This (first part) is how it is in our place. You go into the pro's shop, pay your entry fee and he prints your card for the comp. I have never not returned my card however assume you get an automatic .1 back if you don't as you are already in the system for the comp.

matt-dublin

mag wrote: »

in our club cat1's get 0.1 for nrs (no card posted). i really dont understand why every club wouldnt implement that. this type of stuff has artifically low cat1s and cricket scores in provincials

I was under the impression that gui rules state that they have to and then handicap committee must inform gui of an up revision

mag

matt-dublin wrote: »

I was under the impression that gui rules state that they have to and then handicap committee must inform gui of an up revision

thats for a general play adjustment.

matt-dublin

not for category 1 players?

I thought the GUI had to approve all automated up revisions, or is it just when a cat 1 player moves to cat 2?

mag

matt-dublin wrote: »

not for category 1 players?

I thought the GUI had to approve all automated up revisions, or is it just when a cat 1 player moves to cat 2?

a cat1 player cannot get a handicap adjustment up or down (out of the normal competition ones) without being gui ratified.

ernieprice

A Cat 1 player can move in our out of the category during normal competition play. A Cat 2 player can not be cut on general play by an amount that would make him a Cat 1 player. A Cat 1 player can only be cut on general play by the GUI.