Stroke Play Ruling

shane0007

I played in my club's monthly medal yesterday & one of the other players in my group was having a mare of a day.
Three things happened that I thought were questionable, & as I did not know the answer & it would really not have mattered anyhow with his round, I kept quiet.
1. He teed off & hooked into the trees. Instead of playing a provisional, he said he would find it. He didn't & took a drop, stroke & distance. I thought you had to go back to the tee & play 3 off the tee. Which is correct?
2. Another hole, he mis-hit a shot to the green. He then mis-hit his recovery & nearly hit me. He walked to the ball & asked where his ball was. I pointed to the ball in front of me & he said it was not his ball. I said that is the one he played. He went back & found the correct ball & played that one with no penalty. I thought it was a penalty for playing a wrong ball.
3. He putted on the green & mis-hit that. The other player had not marked his ball & the ball collided. Is this a penalty.

As I said, I wasn't sure so no argument arose or even a discussion with him. I discussed with the other player but he was happy to leave it as the guy was having a disastrous day.

What are the correct rulings?

DuckSlice

i wonder has this guy every heard of rules?
1. back to the tee box for 3 off the tee. he failed to do this so he is DQ. To take a drop under stroke and distance u have to play from where the original stroke was taken.

2. he should play his own ball once he realised it was wrong ball, plus a 2 stroke penalty. if you dont correct your mistake before next hole you are DQ

3. he incurs a 2 stroke penalty if both balls were on the green.

TRS30

shane0007 wrote: »

I played in my club's monthly medal yesterday & one of the other players in my group was having a mare of a day.
Three things happened that I thought were questionable, & as I did not know the answer & it would really not have mattered anyhow with his round, I kept quiet.
1. He teed off & hooked into the trees. Instead of playing a provisional, he said he would find it. He didn't & took a drop, stroke & distance. I thought you had to go back to the tee & play 3 off the tee. Which is correct?
2. Another hole, he mis-hit a shot to the green. He then mis-hit his recovery & nearly hit me. He walked to the ball & asked where his ball was. I pointed to the ball in front of me & he said it was not his ball. I said that is the one he played. He went back & found the correct ball & played that one with no penalty. I thought it was a penalty for playing a wrong ball.
3. He putted on the green & mis-hit that. The other player had not marked his ball & the ball collided. Is this a penalty.

As I said, I wasn't sure so no argument arose or even a discussion with him. I discussed with the other player but he was happy to leave it as the guy was having a disastrous day.

What are the correct rulings?

1. He has to go back and play his third from the tee.

2. Two shot penalty (I believe) for playing the wrong ball.

3. Not sure as never had a player not mark his ball when someone else is putting (on the green).

PARlance

shane0007 wrote: »

I played in my club's monthly medal yesterday & one of the other players in my group was having a mare of a day.
Three things happened that I thought were questionable, & as I did not know the answer & it would really not have mattered anyhow with his round, I kept quiet.
1. He teed off & hooked into the trees. Instead of playing a provisional, he said he would find it. He didn't & took a drop, stroke & distance. I thought you had to go back to the tee & play 3 off the tee. Which is correct?
2. Another hole, he mis-hit a shot to the green. He then mis-hit his recovery & nearly hit me. He walked to the ball & asked where his ball was. I pointed to the ball in front of me & he said it was not his ball. I said that is the one he played. He went back & found the correct ball & played that one with no penalty. I thought it was a penalty for playing a wrong ball.
3. He putted on the green & mis-hit that. The other player had not marked his ball & the ball collided. Is this a penalty.

As I said, I wasn't sure so no argument arose or even a discussion with him. I discussed with the other player but he was happy to leave it as the guy was having a disastrous day.

What are the correct rulings?

1. He had to go back to the tee for his 3rd. There was a video on the "casual golf rules" posted a while back, he's playing by these.
2. 2 shot penalty
3. No penalty afaik, unless he was doing it to help ye read the line of the putt (recent thread on that too, Mike12 posted the ruling)

PARlance

Looks like I got 3 wrong:

Both Balls on Putting Green
"Both balls on putting green" means on the putting green prior to the stroke in question.

The ruling here is covered in Rule 19-5a.

From the green, Player A hits his putt, but the ball strikes the ball of Player B, who was also on the green. In match play there is no penalty. In stroke play, it's a 2-stroke penalty to the player whose ball was in motion when the balls collided.

Repeat: It's not a penalty against the player whose ball was at rest; the penalty is against the player who struck the putt.

The player whose ball was at rest replaces it to its original position; the player whose ball was in motion plays it as it lies.

SnowDrifts

OP I know it might seem harsh to call him on rules - but he will never learn unless someone tells him. They are all very basic rules that every player should know

but I am actually shocked that someone playing in a monthly medal would think issue (1) would be the correct thing to do.

DuckSlice

ajcurry123 wrote: »

Looks like I got 3 wrong

its ok i think someone had it right already :rolleyes::P

PARlance

etxp wrote: »

its ok i think someone had it right already :rolleyes::P

Never spotted your post, fair play.

shane0007

SnowDrifts wrote: »

OP I know it might seem harsh to call him on rules - but he will never learn unless someone tells him. They are all very basic rules that every player should know

but I am actually shocked that someone playing in a monthly medal would think issue (1) would be the correct thing to do.

I was fairly certain there was a rule break on each occasion but I was not
100% & I could not quote the ruling nor the number of penalty strokes.
I was playing well as was the other player. The person in question was literally having a mare of day, being stuck behind a tree on one side of the fairway to chipping out only to get stuck behind a tree on the other side of the fairway.
As it made no difference whatsoever to the competition along with my lack of being able to confirm the correct ruling, I let it be.

The only real thing I was annoyed about was that it was obvious he was not going to find his ball off the tee, so he should have played a provisional, especially when I suggested he did so.

Thanks for all the responses.

denishurley

SnowDrifts wrote: »

OP I know it might seem harsh to call him on rules - but he will never learn unless someone tells him. They are all very basic rules that every player should know

but I am actually shocked that someone playing in a monthly medal would think issue (1) would be the correct thing to do.

It's depressingly surprising how many lowish-handicap players don't seem to know this rule.

"I'll just take a drop from where it went out." :rolleyes:

For Paws

Doesn't anyone carry a copy of the Rules ?

The fact that a fellow competitor is 'having a mare' is irrelevant.
Which situation is harder on the player ?
(a) the player is having an exceptionally poor day & no-one wants to make it worse by pointing out a breach of The Rules.
(b) the player is having an exceptionally good day & no-one wants to spoil it by pointing out a breach of the Rules.

In pointing out a breach of the Rules you are aiding the player & he/she should always accept other players views on possible breaches in that light.
You may be saving that player from committing the same breach in a situation where he is having an exceptionally good round.

You don't do anyone, including yourself, any favours by not speaking up.
As long as you don't willfully undermine a fellow player in querying a situation it is your responsibility to them to speak up.

John Divney

Anytime anyone hits one that is looking lost or OB, If they aren't playing a provisional, remind them that they will be walking back to the tee if they don't find that.

I'm not waiting around all day for that when they are 50/50 to find the ball, also saves that embarrassing conversation where you have to tell someone you can't take a drop for a lost ball, what did he think 'distance' stands for.

shane0007

For Paws wrote: »

Doesn't anyone carry a copy of the Rules ?

The fact that a fellow competitor is 'having a mare' is irrelevant.
Which situation is harder on the player ?
(a) the player is having an exceptionally poor day & no-one wants to make it worse by pointing out a breach of The Rules.
(b) the player is having an exceptionally good day & no-one wants to spoil it by pointing out a breach of the Rules.

In pointing out a breach of the Rules you are aiding the player & he/she should always accept other players views on possible breaches in that light.
You may be saving that player from committing the same breach in a situation where he is having an exceptionally good round.

You don't do anyone, including yourself, any favours by not speaking up.
As long as you don't willfully undermine a fellow player in querying a situation it is your responsibility to them to speak up.

I did speak up with the other player but he said to leave it as it wouldn't matter at the end. If it did matter it could be brought to light then.
As I was not 100% sure of the exact ruling, plus the other player said that he could take a drop. I was not about to start a major argument when I just wanted to play golf. If it was an issue at the end it could be reported to the club.

alxmorgan

For Paws wrote: »

Doesn't anyone carry a copy of the Rules ?

The fact that a fellow competitor is 'having a mare' is irrelevant.
Which situation is harder on the player ?
(a) the player is having an exceptionally poor day & no-one wants to make it worse by pointing out a breach of The Rules.
(b) the player is having an exceptionally good day & no-one wants to spoil it by pointing out a breach of the Rules.

In pointing out a breach of the Rules you are aiding the player & he/she should always accept other players views on possible breaches in that light.
You may be saving that player from committing the same breach in a situation where he is having an exceptionally good round.

You don't do anyone, including yourself, any favours by not speaking up.
As long as you don't willfully undermine a fellow player in querying a situation it is your responsibility to them to speak up.

I think the issue here is that the OP wasn't sure of rules.
I fully understand why he wouldn't want to risk souring the mood of a round when he's not sure.
He knows now so he'll be able to say something next time

For Paws

The issue here is two-fold

(1) I understand that the OP was himself not certain of the Rules, and if you don't carry a copy of the Rules there is no way of being certain.

(2) It is the 'speaking up' that is important. Too often players who know for certain that the Rules have been breached decline to speak up in case they are considered by some to have 'soured the mood'.


The right thing to do and the hard thing to do are usually the same.

First Up

Who signed his card?

diarmuid05

Not to be too harsh here OP but what would you have done if any of those 3 situations had happened to you? (you were playing well) What version of the rules would you have continued under?

If you are unsure of the rules you should definitely pick up a copy.
Speaking from experience you'll will always meet people with different interpretations of the rules... A copy in the bag is vital.

shane0007

diarmuid05 wrote: »

Not to be too harsh here OP but what would you have done if any of those 3 situations had happened to you? (you were playing well) What version of the rules would you have continued under?

If you are unsure of the rules you should definitely pick up a copy.
Speaking from experience you'll will always meet people with different interpretations of the rules... A copy in the bag is vital.

Issue 1 & 3 would not have happened to me as I would have played a provisional & I would have asked to have the ball marked.
Issue 2, I would have known there was a penalty, just I did not know whether it was a 1 or 2 shot penalty. Before signing my card, I would have checked in the club house or with another player could confirm.

How many players in any club actually carry a copy of the rules with them? Me thinks not as many as made out on this thread. There seems to be no sense of gamesmanship. It wasn't like the guy was trying to pull a few fast ones. I understand rules are rules. It was why I questioned it, but I did not want to make such as issue of it as to ruin my Sunday golf or anybody else's.

First Up

shane0007 wrote: »

Issue 1 & 3 would not have happened to me as I would have played a provisional & I would have asked to have the ball marked.
Issue 2, I would have known there was a penalty, just I did not know whether it was a 1 or 2 shot penalty. Before signing my card, I would have checked in the club house or with another player could confirm.

How many players in any club actually carry a copy of the rules with them? Me thinks not as many as made out on this thread. There seems to be no sense of gamesmanship. It wasn't like the guy was trying to pull a few fast ones. I understand rules are rules. It was why I questioned it, but I did not want to make such as issue of it as to ruin my Sunday golf or anybody else's.

You didn't answer my question about signing his card. Presumably you or the other player in the group signed it, even though you were pretty sure he had incurred numerous penalties. That does matter and signing a card in those circumstances is a serious offence.
The correct procedure is for his marker to say that he needs to check the rules before signing.
It may not have mattered this time but it could have and the next time it might. Ignorance of the rules is bad enough; wilfully ignoring them is just a bad - even worse.

For Paws

It is more than unfortunate that anyone who evens mentions the Rules, or indicates that there may have been a breach of the Rules is considered to be 'souring the mood' or 'ruining' the golf.

If and until every player understands and accepts that anybody can make an error, but that there will be someone who, by pointing it out, will assist them in not repeating that error, and that they do so out of consideration for others,
will this condemnation of those who abide by the Rules continue.

A quiet word, spoken kindly, to help someone other than yourself.
How is that still seen as 'ruining' the golf ?

First Up

For Paws wrote: »

It is more than unfortunate that anyone who evens mentions the Rules, or indicates that there may have been a breach of the Rules is considered to be 'souring the mood' or 'ruining' the golf.

If and until every player understands and accepts that anybody can make an error, but that there will be someone who, by pointing it out, will assist them in not repeating that error, and that they do so out of consideration for others,
will this condemnation of those who abide by the Rules continue.

A quiet word, spoken kindly, to help someone other than yourself.
How is that still seen as 'ruining' the golf ?

Agreed but there is even more to it. Every player in a competition has a duty to "protect the field". That is why you can't mark your own card - the marker is in effect witnessing and confirming what happens. If that basic tenet of the game is breached, the whole system is at risk.
Nobody likes doing it but if someone tries to do something that you know breaks a rule you just go to them and politely and firmly say "you can't do that". In 99% of the cases, the offender won't argue.

Almaviva

shane0007 wrote: »

1. He teed off & hooked into the trees. Instead of playing a provisional, he said he would find it. He didn't & took a drop, stroke & distance. I thought you had to go back to the tee & play 3 off the tee.
2. Another hole, he mis-hit a shot to the green. He then mis-hit his recovery & nearly hit me. He walked to the ball & asked where his ball was. I pointed to the ball in front of me & he said it was not his ball. I said that is the one he played. He went back & found the correct ball & played that one with no penalty.
3. He putted on the green & mis-hit that. The other player had not marked his ball & the ball collided.

How do we give clowns like this a handicap ??? :mad::(:mad:

shane0007

First Up wrote: »

Agreed but there is even more to it. Every player in a competition has a duty to "protect the field". That is why you can't mark your own card - the marker is in effect witnessing and confirming what happens. If that basic tenet of the game is breached, the whole system is at risk.
Nobody likes doing it but if someone tries to do something that you know breaks a rule you just go to them and politely and firmly say "you can't do that". In 99% of the cases, the offender won't argue.

I agree but as I did question the penalty with the third player, he told me something I disagreed with, as in the drop was allowed & that if there was any discrepancy, it can be questioned after the round. That was on hole 2 & the offending player got 10 times worse as the round progressed, it became less of an issue.
Even to the point that the offending player came out of the bushes, telling me he took an extra shot, admitting to an air shot, & counting it on his card.
I do not think there was anything intentional with the 3 rule breaks but rather it came to the point it did not matter to the fact I did not want to punish an already punishing round, but I do take on board all the valid points being made.

First Up

shane0007 wrote: »

I agree but as I did question the penalty with the third player, he told me something I disagreed with, as in the drop was allowed & that if there was any discrepancy, it can be questioned after the round. That was on hole 2 & the offending player got 10 times worse as the round progressed, it became less of an issue.
Even to the point that the offending player came out of the bushes, telling me he took an extra shot, admitting to an air shot, & counting it on his card.
I do not think there was anything intentional with the 3 rule breaks but rather it came to the point it did not matter to the fact I did not want to punish an already punishing round, but I do take on board all the valid points being made.

It sounds like they were both pretty clueless as regards the rules. Made for a long and awkward day for you. Maybe you could suggest the club runs a rules night but the 3 infractions were so clear cut it would be hard to know where to start.

GreeBo

As mentioned already above, I find it crazy the number of people who are playing the game without knowing the rules or carrying a means to find the rules.

Its like the people who never have a pencil, always assuming that someone else will. Someday 3 of you are going to end up together and then what?

A rule book is free, get one and stick it in your bag! (Oh and read the thing every now and then, especially for the everyday stuff!)

GreeBo

shane0007 wrote: »

I agree but as I did question the penalty with the third player, he told me something I disagreed with, as in the drop was allowed & that if there was any discrepancy, it can be questioned after the round. That was on hole 2 & the offending player got 10 times worse as the round progressed, it became less of an issue.
Even to the point that the offending player came out of the bushes, telling me he took an extra shot, admitting to an air shot, & counting it on his card.
I do not think there was anything intentional with the 3 rule breaks but rather it came to the point it did not matter to the fact I did not want to punish an already punishing round, but I do take on board all the valid points being made.

It cant always be fixed after the round, playing a wrong ball or matchplay for example.
Also, it doesnt matter a fig if the rule breaks are intentional or not. Intentionally cheating may have subsequent punishments, but for the round in question the rules are the rules.

Why play a game, under competition rules, if you dont know those rules?
Do you also drive without knowing the rules of the road?

alxmorgan

GreeBo wrote: »

It cant always be fixed after the round, playing a wrong ball or matchplay for example.
Also, it doesnt matter a fig if the rule breaks are intentional or not. Intentionally cheating may have subsequent punishments, but for the round in question the rules are the rules.

Why play a game, under competition rules, if you dont know those rules?
Do you also drive without knowing the rules of the road?

To be fair the rules of golf are a lot more complex and at the end of the day - it is only a game. (I feel dirty even typing it )
Not giving people a free pass here but let's get some perspective

GreeBo

alxmorgan wrote: »

To be fair the rules of golf are a lot more complex and at the end of the day - it is only a game. (I feel dirty even typing it )
Not giving people a free pass here but let's get some perspective

Most of the rules are simple and everyday occurrences.
Not knowing what to do if your ball is lost or unplayable is the same as not knowing what to do in a game of football if the ball goes out over the side line.

Sure I dont immediately know what to do for some of the more strange situations, but if you dont know what to do in a lost ball scenario, exactly what rules do you know?
Do you know the one about not cleaning your ball off the green, not grounding your club in a hazard, not breaking stuff thats interfering with your ball, etc, etc, etc.

When the governing body provides a free book and an interactive website, ignorance is no excuse imho, otherwise they are not playing the same game to the same rules that I am, to my great disadvantage.

First Up

alxmorgan wrote: »

To be fair the rules of golf are a lot more complex and at the end of the day - it is only a game. (I feel dirty even typing it )
Not giving people a free pass here but let's get some perspective

So what are you suggesting? No rules? less rules? optional rules?

alxmorgan

GreeBo wrote: »

Most of the rules are simple and everyday occurrences.
Not knowing what to do if your ball is lost or unplayable is the same as not knowing what to do in a game of football if the ball goes out over the side line.

Sure I dont immediately know what to do for some of the more strange situations, but if you dont know what to do in a lost ball scenario, exactly what rules do you know?
Do you know the one about not cleaning your ball off the green, not grounding your club in a hazard, not breaking stuff thats interfering with your ball, etc, etc, etc.

When the governing body provides a free book and an interactive website, ignorance is no excuse imho, otherwise they are not playing the same game to the same rules that I am, to my great disadvantage.

I was not refering to the rules mentioned by OP. I was just saying that disallowing someone from playing competitive golf as they did not know ALL of the rules seems a bit too much.

And you say as much yourself by admitting you may not know all scenarios. Of course it is incumbent upon all competitors to learn rules when they do not know them in so far as is possible.

Almaviva

alxmorgan wrote: »

To be fair the rules of golf are a lot more complex and at the end of the day - it is only a game. (I feel dirty even typing it )
Not giving people a free pass here but let's get some perspective

The perspective is that you should know the Rules.

Not knowing the Decisions is forgivable but relevant events are very rare.

There is simply NO excuse for not knowing about 50 key rules like OOB, playing the wrong ball, water hazards, immovable obstructions, etc. Its not that many and its not that hard. You should not be let play competitive golf if you dont know them.

alxmorgan

First Up wrote: »

So what are you suggesting? No rules? less rules? optional rules?

Not at all. See post above
I think the OP was in a difficult situation.

alxmorgan

Almaviva wrote: »

The perspective is that you should know the Rules.

Not knowing the Decisions is forgivable but relevant events are very rare.

There is simply NO excuse for not knowing about 50 key rules like OOB, playing the wrong ball, water hazards, immovable obstructions, etc. Its not that many and its not that hard. You should not be let play competitive golf if you dont know them.

Well then golf clubs should be doing more. You have to pass a test to drive.
Why no test or even rules night from clubs ? (of course some may but certainly not all)

shane0007

Rules of the road are used easily here as a comparison. How many drivers carry the rules of the road with them? If given a theory test right now with no access to Senore Google, how many would pass?
So what everyone is saying is the player is allowed 5 minutes to look for his ball, how long then is allowed to look up the ruling, then argue that ruling, then act on that ruling.
I correctly knew the rule, I just wasn't sure of the number of penalty shots for sure, hence why I posted the 3 scenarios.
Overall, I don't think there is an issue for clubs to be running out, halting play until every member has a copy of the rules, reads the said rules & signs an undying declaration of obedience to those rules. It was a rare occasion, in fact, I cannot remember the last time it could not have been sorted there & then between the players.

spacecoyote

My place had a notice up at the start of the year saying free rule books were available in the clubhouse. Can't force someone to pick one up either.

They also put up a sign on the clubhouse noticeboard with a "rule of the month"

Also from what I can gather there are actually quite a small number of clubs who actually have a rules committee too, I would have thought every club should really have one.

My club does & they put on a rules night earlier in the year with Barry Rhodes guest speaking. Problem is that only about 25-30 members were in the room, and they are probably the people who least need to be attending these kind of nights as they've already shown they have an interest in knowing the correct rules.

Basically what I'm saying is that with even the best of efforts, and I think my club make a pretty decent effort, that in an essentially self regulated game you'll always find people who will ignore consciously or unconsciously the rules of the game

First Up

shane0007 wrote: »

Rules of the road are used easily here as a comparison. How many drivers carry the rules of the road with them? If given a theory test right now with no access to Senore Google, how many would pass?
So what everyone is saying is the player is allowed 5 minutes to look for his ball, how long then is allowed to look up the ruling, then argue that ruling, then act on that ruling.
I correctly knew the rule, I just wasn't sure of the number of penalty shots for sure, hence why I posted the 3 scenarios.
Overall, I don't think there is an issue for clubs to be running out, halting play until every member has a copy of the rules, reads the said rules & signs an undying declaration of obedience to those rules. It was a rare occasion, in fact, I cannot remember the last time it could not have been sorted there & then between the players.

It doesn't come to that. There are well established procedures. If there is a genuine difference of opinion you note the matter and resolve it after the round but before signing the card. You can even play two balls on the hole - one in accordance with each interpretation - and finalise it after.
The only thing that is needed is the courage to defend the integrity of the game. It can be done in a diplomatic and reasonable manner. I can't be sure about the guilty party but I am sure your club will be the better for it.

PARlance

shane0007 wrote: »

I agree but as I did question the penalty with the third player, he told me something I disagreed with, as in the drop was allowed & that if there was any discrepancy, it can be questioned after the round. That was on hole 2 & the offending player got 10 times worse as the round progressed, it became less of an issue.
Even to the point that the offending player came out of the bushes, telling me he took an extra shot, admitting to an air shot, & counting it on his card.
I do not think there was anything intentional with the 3 rule breaks but rather it came to the point it did not matter to the fact I did not want to punish an already punishing round, but I do take on board all the valid points being made.

OP, I think this post sums up all that was done wrong for me.
I don't expect people to be able to spit out the rules and decisions.
However, I would expect a player to protect the field by at least saying something and getting it clarified in the club house if needs be.

He took his "drop anywhere" on the 2nd hole, he could have easily turned his round around from there. It would have caused far more confrontation if you waited until he was putting a good score in.

He later proved himself to be honest and have some knowledge of the rules with the air shot... You've let a guy that would probably have accepted his faith and learned a new rule or three walk off the course ignorant to them.

You're also putting yourself in a spot. What happens if he's playing with a commitee member or vocal member the next time this happens. I wouldn't fancy him saying "that's funny Shane007 never pulled me up on that" if it happened with them.

shane0007

First Up wrote: »

The only thing that is needed is the courage to defend the integrity of the game. It can be done in a diplomatic and reasonable manner.

It was done diplomatically. I was outnumbered 2:1. What I was not prepared to do was throw my putter over my shoulder & march around the perimeter of the green "protecting the honour of the game!"
If somebody wishes to play their own rules that's upto them. We are not playing the same game, I play R & A rules but I am not following anybody around the course waving my rules book. I want to enjoy my game & I've enough to so trying to get that little white ball in that little hole.... ;-)

diarmuid05

OP you have failed your partner and the COMPETITIVE game of golf in my opinion.
He will continue to makes these mistakes/break those rules until someone sets him straight.

First Up

shane0007 wrote: »

It was done diplomatically. I was outnumbered 2:1. What I was not prepared to do was throw my putter over my shoulder & march around the perimeter of the green "protecting the honour of the game!"
If somebody wishes to play their own rules that's upto them. We are not playing the same game, I play R & A rules but I am not following anybody around the course waving my rules book. I want to enjoy my game & I've enough to so trying to get that little white ball in that little hole.... ;-)

Excuse me but that is horseh*t.
As clearly explained by me and several other posters, there are clear and simple procedures. If there is an unresolved dispute, you defer the final score until you have consulted others after the round. You don't have to make a scene; just declare your opinion and defer it until you get an authoritative decision.

It is NOT up to players to "play their own game" in a club competition. You ARE playing the same game and everyone's role in a group is to protect the integrity of the competition. This is the case whether or not you are marking the card in question. If you marked and signed his card (and you have not said if you did or didn't) KNOWING that it was an incorrect score, then you are also guilty of a serious offence that would incur a lengthy suspension in many clubs.

mag

shane0007 wrote: »

If somebody wishes to play their own rules that's upto them. We are not playing the same game, I play R & A rules but I am not following anybody around the course waving my rules book. I want to enjoy my game & I've enough to so trying to get that little white ball in that little hole.... ;-)

sorry shane, youre way off the mark here. as a marker and/or playing partner you have an obligation to ensure the correct rules are followed and correct score is entered.

alxmorgan

Any sympathy here for OP no ?
Earlier this summer I was playing an open and ended up paired with two very good friends (of each other - strangers to me)

Anyway one of them hit OB and dropped at where the ball crossed the line under penalty of one stroke. I mentioned it and said you couldn't do that that you had to go back to where you hit. Response was a hearty laugh and a "no way I'm going all the way back there". They dropped at where it crossed and played away.

So basically I had the choice to stand my ground and spend the next 3 hours in stony silence, at best, or enjoy the rest of my round safe in the knowledge that this would have no effect as they had no score going anyway.

Life is short and it was a nice evening so I took option 2. So yes I have some sympathy for OP. Does it make me a bad person ? Don't think so.
Did I fail in my obligations ? Probably but as I say life is short and it wasn't life or death so I took the easy option. And I did think about protecting the field but there was no need. Their golf was doing that quite nicely.

Now this was a specific scenario. I have and do stand my ground in other situations, I just didn't feel like ruining my evening.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone (and I don't just mean golf - I mean life in general)

SnowDrifts

Sorry alxmorgan but there is absolutely no way I would have let that slide. Sure, it might upset the vibe on a nice day's golf but YOU are not the one ruining the vibe - he is with absolute ignorance of the rules and a blatant disrespect for the game.

What he did in your example is cheating and nothing less. I would rather not play at all than play with someone who thinks cheating is the way to go.

alxmorgan

SnowDrifts wrote: »

Sorry alxmorgan but there is absolutely no way I would have let that slide. Sure, it might upset the vibe on a nice day's golf but YOU are not the one ruining the vibe - he is with absolute ignorance of the rules and a blatant disrespect for the game.

What he did in your example is cheating and nothing less. I would rather not play at all than play with someone who thinks cheating is the way to go.

I respect that. But I don't get out that much....and life these days is very busy and tiring so I took the selfish option.

They were sound lads having said all that. And I did try to set them right. But I know exactly where pushing it would have lead to and I just didn't feel like going there on that day.

PARlance

alxmorgan wrote: »

Any sympathy here for OP no ?
Earlier this summer I was playing an open and ended up paired with two very good friends (of each other - strangers to me)

Anyway one of them hit OB and dropped at where the ball crossed the line under penalty of one stroke. I mentioned it and said you couldn't do that that you had to go back to where you hit. Response was a hearty laugh and a "no way I'm going all the way back there". They dropped at where it crossed and played away.

So basically I had the choice to stand my ground and spend the next 3 hours in stony silence, at best, or enjoy the rest of my round safe in the knowledge that this would have no effect as they had no score going anyway.

Life is short and it was a nice evening so I took option 2. So yes I have some sympathy for OP. Does it make me a bad person ? Don't think so.
Did I fail in my obligations ? Probably but as I say life is short and it wasn't life or death so I took the easy option. And I did think about protecting the field but there was no need. Their golf was doing that quite nicely.

Now this was a specific scenario. I have and do stand my ground in other situations, I just didn't feel like ruining my evening.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone (and I don't just mean golf - I mean life in general)

I do have sympathy for the OP, starts a thread with good intentions and then you might argue he gets jumped upon.
But that doesn't mean I think he was right and I have to say I think the OP has reacted poorly to some of the advice.

Ironically, this thread kind of mirrors what can happen on the course.
Some posters, who have been completely right in what they have said, when pointing out the errors but have taken a direct approach and caused the OP to get a bit confrontational.

The OP, like the golfer who doesn't know the rules would probably do, hasn't reacted well and now it's a case that rather than being able to see that sometimes a subtle word will suffice, it's now a case that the OP thinks the only scenario is go around waving the rules book at people.
I don't have sympathy if he's not willing to learn a bit from the experience.

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"

Fair enough, but there's also a nice little one about learning from mistakes, not making them twice etc.

If you're a sinner, then repent, don't be giving other sinners a lifetimes supply of stones :D

alxmorgan

ajcurry123 wrote: »

I do have sympathy for the OP, starts a thread with good intentions and then you might argue he gets jumped upon.
But that doesn't mean I think he was right and I have to say I think the OP has reacted poorly to some of the advice.

Ironically, this thread kind of mirrors what can happen on the course.
Some posters, who have been completely right in what they have said, when pointing out the errors but have taken a direct approach and caused the OP to get a bit confrontational.

The OP, like the golfer who doesn't know the rules would probably do, hasn't reacted well and now it's a case that rather than being able to see that sometimes a subtle word will suffice, it's now a case that the OP thinks the only scenario is go around waving the rules book at people.
I don't have sympathy if he's not willing to learn a bit from the experience.

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"

Fair enough, but there's also a nice little one about learning from mistakes, not making them twice etc.

If you're a sinner, then repent, don't be giving other sinners a lifetimes supply of stones :D

I'm sure that the OP now knowing the penalties for the outlined scenarios (cause that is all he wasn't sure about) will be stronger the next time.

(ok I'm not sure but I believe in him )

And for the love of God will someone please think of the children !! :P

shane0007

For the record I did not sign his card. But to me it is irrelevant.
I think what is being said is a bit harsh.
I play golf because I love playing. I enjoyed my golf that day too. I know he did not enjoy it on that particular day. I knew rules were broken. Was it important? Of course it was, that is why I highlighted it to both players. I was told I was wrong on each occasion. I get out once a week & I'm am not going to ruin my day spending it arguing over somebody's ignorance. Should I have taken it further after the round. Probably. Would it have made a difference. Most likely not. Will I enjoy next Sunday's match. Absolutely.

Freemount09

I had a situation last year, in a stroke play competition, where a playing partner drove off, missed the fairway, but not by much. After 5 mins of looking the ball mysteriously couldn't be found. He went back to the tee to play his 3rd. The 3 of us stayed down around the landing zone, where the group on the adjoining fairway, questioned us as to what this guy was doing ? We explained the situation, their reply was "Ah g'sus, this is going to hold us up now, why the f**k didn't he just drop a ball around there?" Another group approching the tee box as he was leaving it gave him a similar verbal kick up the hole for delaying the whole course.

The poor fella legged it down the fairway, was a ball of sweat and panting course he was out of sorts and messed up that hole and the next one too cause of this episode.

In the OP's case this happened on hole 2, which is too early to decide to turn a blind eye, as the player in question could hit a hot streak and burn up the next 16 holes and bring in 47 points at which point are you going to say "mmm I think your DQ'ed there cause of that incident on the 2nd ?" but if someone is on the 14th hole with 20 points I think theres a difference then about being a rules nazi ! What difference would it make to the field if someone brought in 29 points or 32 ?

alxmorgan

Freemount09 wrote: »

I had a situation last year, in a stroke play competition, where a playing partner drove off, missed the fairway, but not by much. After 5 mins of looking the ball mysteriously couldn't be found. He went back to the tee to play his 3rd. The 3 of us stayed down around the landing zone, where the group on the adjoining fairway, questioned us as to what this guy was doing ? We explained the situation, their reply was "Ah g'sus, this is going to hold us up now, why the f**k didn't he just drop a ball around there?" Another group approching the tee box as he was leaving it gave him a similar verbal kick up the hole for delaying the whole course.

The poor fella legged it down the fairway, was a ball of sweat and panting course he was out of sorts and messed up that hole and the next one too cause of this episode.

In the OP's case this happened on hole 2, which is too early to decide to turn a blind eye, as the player in question could hit a hot streak and burn up the next 16 holes and bring in 47 points at which point are you going to say "mmm I think your DQ'ed there cause of that incident on the 2nd ?" but if someone is on the 14th hole with 20 points I think theres a difference then about being a rules nazi ! What difference would it make to the field if someone brought in 29 points or 32 ?

FixdePitchmark

Lads,

People on here are not the average golfers, they are nuts about the game. Play in formal comps very often. they watch golf , read about golf, dream about bleeding golf.

The rules of golf are very long and descriptive, not everybody has the time or inclination or even aptitude to understand them.

This was a medal so is a bit mental, I see the funny side, but would hope to have the skill to help them know they are wrong without ruining the day. There is no way I'd let them win something.

The way most people start playing golf now is deformalised, it is more pub and casual golf. These lads join clubs and are away. It was far more structured before , with a senior club lad taking you under his wing.

So with all the changes in golf that have gone on, expect more of above. Doesn't make it right, but golf clubs are in a fight for survival, give your money, 3 cards away you go.

Lads are talking about , how you should know the rules. I was at the Irish Open, you would not believe some of the rulings the top level pros were asking for. So , not a great advertisement for the rules of golf.

GreeBo, i love your pencil thing , very funny. But, there is no way the rules of Football are analogous.

Sure, the biggest golf story this year was Tiger Wood's drop.

First Up

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Lads,

People on here are not the average golfers, they are nuts about the game. Play in formal comps very often. they watch golf , read about golf, dream about bleeding golf.

The rules of golf are very long and descriptive, not everybody has the time or inclination or even aptitude to understand them.

This was a medal so is a bit mental, I see the funny side, but would hope to have the skill to help them know they are wrong without ruining the day. There is no way I'd let them win something.

The way most people start playing golf now is deformalised, it is more pub and casual golf. These lads join clubs and are away. It was far more structured before , with a senior club lad taking you under his wing.

So with all the changes in golf that have gone on, expect more of above. Doesn't make it right, but golf clubs are in a fight for survival, give your money, 3 cards away you go.

Lads are talking about , how you should know the rules. I was at the Irish Open, you would not believe some of the rulings the top level pros were asking for. So , not a great advertisement for the rules of golf.

GreeBo, i love your pencil thing , very funny. But, there is no way the rules of Football are analogous.

Sure, the biggest golf story this year was Tiger Wood's drop.

Clubs in a fight for survival won't help their cause if they get a reputation for being lax about the rules. Casual golf is one thing; competitions are something else and unless they are properly managed, they mean nothing. Word gets around.

I know a case where a guy was expelled from a club - and a club employee sacked - for complicity in doctoring a scorecard. Whatever about the scale of the punishment, I applaud that club's determination to comply with the letter as well as the spirit of the game. (The player in question was a low handicapper who featured in inter-club matches.)

I sympathise with the points being made about enjoying the day out but where do you draw the line? At what point does making allowance for ignorance and "sure it doesn't matter 'cos he is having a 'mare of day anyway" become something more serious? If you don't pull somebody up when it doesn't matter, what will you do when it does?

The OP says he was "out voted". That is not how these matters are decided. He had recourse to third part decisions and cases like this are discussed and settled in most pro-shops and clubhouses every week.

I'm not clear if the two other parties were/are club members. If they are, a quiet word after the dust has settled is strongly recommended.

Heaven help the club if these guys ever wander into an inter-club match. They will be crucified.