What lesbians think of bisexuals...

baby and crumble

Well now. Isn't this just rage inducing?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUozcqlhX3w

I can't even...

Vojera

WTF? And people say bi-phobia isn't a real thing.

I DEFINITELY think those women are insecure, both about themselves and their sexualities on some level. The reason I think that is, if you date a lesbian and aren't constantly afraid that she's going to leave you for another woman, but you date a bisexual woman and think she'll eventually leave you for a man, aren't you on some level saying that you're afraid your girlfriend will go back to her "real" sexuality and that your lesbian relationship can't really compete with a straight one?

baby and crumble

I do love their expressions when the video maker starts questioning them on insecurity. I mean everyone in a relationship has the odd "oh god they'll leave'" thing but to persist in thinking that is incredibly insecure.

Your one with the dreads is particularly infuriating. She seems to see sexuality purely as sex- like it has nothing to do with attraction to a person or anything.

Emz93

baby and crumble wrote: »

Your one with the dreads is particularly infuriating. She seems to see sexuality purely as sex- like it has nothing to do with attraction to a person or anything.

I find it particularly insulting how she claims a bisexual girl could have had a d*ck in her mouth the week before. Makes bisexuals out to be sluts if I'm honest! So offensive!

generallyjack

Here are a few tweets by Arielle, the person who made the video:

https://twitter.com/arielleishammin/status/379388128152125440
@AshleyMardell a lot of people don't understand why I make the videos this way lol but someone has to show the ignorance so we can

https://twitter.com/arielleishammin/status/379388022812209152
@Notez I'm not one to sit back and pretend things in the world are ok. I like to be the one to show what's wrong and how we can change it

https://twitter.com/arielleishammin/status/379386985481506816
@Notez it's supposed to piss ppl off. The aim is to show how ridiculous it is

I think the video is supposed to highlight biphobia in our community and I am almost certain that the women in the video were acting. In the other video with gay lads discussing bisexuality, they did the same thing: http://www.youtube.com/embed/XUXzNowXVwo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUXzNowXVwo

One comment on that video:
Volvandese 3 hours ago
Holy **** people. Sit and watch the whole video. This is a SATIRE about the hypocrisy of gays who judge and discriminate against bisexuals. Please please please, before posting another comment about how this is attacking you, just sit down and finish the video first.

I know that those gay lads and Arielle are friends with R.J. Aguiar, who is bisexual. He makes daily vlogs with his boyfriend Will Shepherd: http://www.youtube.com/shep689/ I can't imagine why they would do this to him.

I get annoyed with some gay YouTubers who use being gay as a way to sell themselves to a market. Sometimes the work of the LGBT content creators is a great help and comfort to many people, but then others are more irresponsible and, frankly, vulgar. In this case, they should have made their inspiration for the video a little clearer. However, more people are talking about the issue now, which is good.

Ambersky

Video does look like acting to me too, stereotyping and simplifying lesbians responses to bisexuals just as much as it is suppose to be stereotyping bisexuals themselves.

So I am guessing that the party line here is , to look at things from an individualist perspective, as in if any lesbian has had difficulty in a relationship with a bisexual it is purely a personal issue and something you could experience with another lesbian. Not only that it seems the discussion puts any difficulties back into the lap of the lesbian and her insecurity.
I don't think that line is totally fair or correct because it denies the social pressures of heteronormality.

Lesbians know the pressure there is on many of us to be straight and bisexuals know it too. Many families would be totally made up if their daughter came home and said I am now dating a man and not a woman, I now may have children who share the biological genes of my partner and I can socialise with all of you without embarrassment, you can now talk about me and my success with the neighbors. I know not all families are like this but this forum alone has enough treads with posters saying they are so afraid of coming out or are having problems with their families.

The pressure to be straight is why so many women who are lesbian, say they are bisexual as a first step before saying they are gay, its kind of like holding onto some semblance of normality of heteronormality. Its something we hear so often from people coming out that it causes problems for actual bisexuals being taken seriously and not being dismissed as someone having difficulty making the final jump and admitting they are lesbian.
We know there are social pressures to be straight or at least to look straight with an opposite sex partner. That at least is part of the difficulty lesbians have when getting involved with bisexual women.
Yes any woman can leave you for any other woman but she will still be in the same boat facing the same social stigma as she was with you. A bisexual woman leaving you for a man gets more of a social reward. She will still be bisexual and it is not a particularly happy place to not have your gay side acknowledged, but the opposite sex partner comes with a lot of social reward and approval. What is the problem with acknowledging that there are a lot of rewards to having an opposite sex partner? If there was no reward and all things were equal at this stage we probably wouldnt have a need for a forum like this.
This lack of a level playing field in what a lesbian has to offer in relationship with another woman and what a man has to offer, if we take it that the love is equal but the social approval and reward is not, is not all in the imagination or personal insecurity of the lesbian. Its not the fault of the bisexual either, but that is the situation, its a social construct.. heteronormality.

I acknowledge actual bisexuals feel pressure on both sides, to be straight from mainstream heterosexual society and to be lesbian from the lesbian community, that is their conundrum.
It is absolutely fine in my opinion to acknowledge that bisexuality is a genuine part of our diversity, not an easy way out, not an excuse for infidelity in a relationship that is taken to be monogamous and that bisexuals are often misunderstood. Just because someone is bisexual doesnt mean they cant have real commited relationships with lesbians. Thats up to the woman and how well she has worked things out about her own sexuality, her relationships with women, what she and her partner want and the social pressures.
Some Lesbians can and do discriminate unfairly against some bisexuals.
Some Bisexuals treat lesbians badly and use the term bi curious more as a form of personal entertainment than relating to another person who has feelings of her own. Again I am saying some some some, not all, not in every situation, but some.

We do not need to blame all lesbians for expressing some awareness of the social inequalities that exist between heterosexual and homosexual couples socially. We do not need to blame lesbians for saying that they would need to develop a relationship of trust with a bisexual woman and find out how she views her relationships with another women before getting involved. It is a good idea to find out how any woman views relationships before getting involved too deeply, bisexuality simply offers another area of discovery.
Not all bisexuals view things in the same way and it is only right to ask and find out before making assumptions even if those assumptions are favourably biased.
Not all bisexuals, just as not all lesbians have things worked out in their heads. It is perfectly fine in my opinion to be aware of the personal as well as the social influences acting on any relationship.

twerk18

I find this post and the title to be completely unfair, not all lesbians think this way when it comes to bisexuals plus how come there is no mention of what gay men think of bisexuals? There seems to be a lot of **** thrown onto lesbians in this forum sometimes. I have no problem with bisexuals, however I wouldn't date one because of a past experience.

baby and crumble

twerk18 wrote: »

I find this post and the title to be completely unfair, not all lesbians think this way when it comes to bisexuals plus how come there is no mention of what gay men think of bisexuals? There seems to be a lot of **** thrown onto lesbians in this forum sometimes. I have no problem with bisexuals, however I wouldn't date one because of a past experience.

I think that indicates you have a problem.

Also, I took the title from the video. I didn't come up with this video. I was just sharing it.

Ambersky

I appreciate you didnt come up with the title baby and crumble but the videos title and discussion did seem to be getting into look how awful lesbians are to bisexuals for absolutely no reason at all other than their own insecurity. That said it might serve as a good way to have a discussion on this topic, maybe it could allow both sides as it were to discuss how they feel and maybe personal experiences. Ill but out after this.

Basing a belief about a group of people on a personal experience may be an understandable thing to do, its based on being hurt and people naturally want to avoid situations where they have been hurt. A prejudice though is just that, basing a belief about a whole group of people on a negative experience with one or a few.
That being hurt and calling the other group names works both ways when bisexuals have an idea that lesbians are all anti bisexual and calling any fear or reasonable concern biphobic and when lesbians think bisexuals all have a hetronormative bias and will leave any woman for opposite sex privilege.
We could maybe be a bit more understanding and gentle with one another. Fear and hurt are often dispelled when we listen to each other and learn where each other are coming from rather than calling each other names and thinking we do things for no reason at all other than to be horrible.

Annasopra

twerk18 wrote: »

I find this post and the title to be completely unfair, not all lesbians think this way when it comes to bisexuals plus how come there is no mention of what gay men think of bisexuals? There seems to be a lot of **** thrown onto lesbians in this forum sometimes. I have no problem with bisexuals, however I wouldn't date one because of a past experience.

I haven't much **** thrown at lesbians in this forum myself. Lots of biphobia but not much lesbophobia.

paulmorro

twerk18 wrote: »

I find this post and the title to be completely unfair, not all lesbians think this way when it comes to bisexuals plus how come there is no mention of what gay men think of bisexuals? There seems to be a lot of **** thrown onto lesbians in this forum sometimes. I have no problem with bisexuals, however I wouldn't date one because of a past experience.

Ha!!!! I'm not racist but....

baby and crumble

I think that, scripted or not, that video is a decent representation of what many people think of bi women. A few of my friends (and my partner) are bi and they tell stories that you wouldn't believe. Our community is very well able to dish out the types of negative, stereotypical, phobic bull**** that we have historically been on the receiving end of, frankly- bi/ trans phobia is alive and well. To simply say "we should know that not every lesbian feels like this" is fair enough, but to somehow turn this around into "poor lesbians are being demonised" is bizarre and frankly reeks of privilege.

Ambersky

stereotyping and simplifying lesbians responses to bisexuals just as much as it is suppose to be stereotyping bisexuals themselves.

We could line up people to tell stories about how badly some lesbians have treated or spoken about bisexuals.
We could also line up people to tell stories about how badly individual bisexuals have treated lesbians.

Its not a competition about who is the most oppressed.
Its understandable to feel protective about a bisexual partner when you know other lesbians feel and say bad things about bisexuals.
What you have experienced most certainly has a bearing on the conclusions you come to and if we are putting forward our own experiences
I have been treated badly by bisexual women, one left me for a man saying what we had wasnt the real thing and the other apologised and said she probably would have taken the relationship more seriously if it had been with a man. That doesnt mean that I think all bisexuals will do this or that I think bisexuals reek of privilege that they can turn to any time they like.
Taking a side and blaming either the lesbians or the bisexuals as the most hurt in this matter does not help.
Trying to find out if biphobia or lesbophobia is the worst phobia is a waste of time.

Lesbians can be biphobic (I am not denying it exists) and lesbians have to deal with their own internalised lesbophobia.
Bisexuals can be lesbophobic ( is there any denial of this?) and bisexuals have to deal with their own internalised lesbophobia and probably biphobia too.

What has helped me deal with my own hurts and prejudices is hearing bisexual women and lesbians involved with them talk about what they think about those issues, about how they feel about relationships with women, social acceptance, family pressure, etc.
I have read bisexual women here writing about those things and I have heard lesbians, yourself included, baby and crumble talk about relationships with bisexuals.
Listening to someone tell how a particular behaviour hurts them or makes them feel like they dont belong or are unacceptable usually works better at changing prejudice than throwing stones at someone and calling them names and telling them not to feel a prejudice any more.
Calling someone biphobic who has experienced hurt in relationship with a bisexual isnt going to change how they feel about wanting to avoid a simular situation. It may make them reluctant to talk about it openly, but it wont change how they feel or make them change their minds.

Maybe there could be room for bisexual women to say how they feel about relationships with women and how they feel when accused of not taking them seriously or when just simply insulted by lesbians.
Maybe there could also be room for lesbians to say how they have felt when hurt in relationship by bisexuals who have sidelined them or treated them as not equal to a relationship with a man.
Telling our own stories usually works better than accusing each other of political incorrectness.

baby and crumble

I'm not entirely sure I agree with most of your post, Amber. :eek: (;))

Ambersky wrote: »

We could line up people to tell stories about how badly some lesbians have treated or spoken about bisexuals.
We could also line up people to tell stories about how badly individual bisexuals have treated lesbians.

That's fair enough. Everyone has the capacity to treat people like crap. I just think it's important to highlight when people are treated badly, in particular by a group which in many ways, should know better.

Ambersky wrote: »

I have been treated badly by bisexual women, one left me for a man saying what we had wasnt the real thing and the other apologised and said she probably would have taken the relationship more seriously if it had been with a man.

But see, I don't know why it's neccesary to say "I've been badly treated by bisexual women", like they're a different species. You could just have easy said "I have been hurt by women", and it would still be relevant. Actually in those situations you could just has easily (and correctly said) "I've been hurt by assholes"!!! The mere fact of introducing a disclaimer (i.e that she was bi) immediately starts to put some 'blame' of those actions onto the bisexuality. Whether you intend it to or not.

Ambersky wrote: »

That doesnt mean that I think all bisexuals will do this or that I think bisexuals reek of privilege that they can turn to any time they like. Taking a side and blaming either the lesbians or the bisexuals as the most hurt in this matter does not help.

My comment about privilege was in response to the other poster who began to turn this thread into a "lesbians aren't all like this, lesbians get a bad press, poor lesbians" thing.

Ambersky wrote: »

Trying to find out if biphobia or lesbophobia is the worst phobia is a waste of time. Lesbians can be biphobic and they have to deal with their own internalised lesbophobia. Bisexuals can be lesbophobic and have to deal with their own internalised lesbophobia and probably biphobia too.

Ambersky wrote: »

Listening to someone tell how a particular behaviour hurts them or makes them feel like they dont belong or unacceptable usually works better at changing prejudice than throwing stones at someone and calling them names and telling them not to feel a prejudice any more.

These are points I do agree with, but I think it's important to call out this behaviour and challenge it, whether its biphobia, lesbophobia, transphobia, camp-phobia, butch-phobia... all the 'others' in the community that freak people about being included with. How many posts here say things like "I'm a normal gay person, I'm not camp/butch/trans/weird/fetishistic/insert word here"?

Ambersky wrote: »

Maybe there could be room for bisexual women to say how they feel about relationships with women and how they feel when accused of not taking them seriously or when just simply insulted by lesbians.

There is- but it's not listened to. And that's the big problem.

Ambersky

bably and crumble said
But see, I don't know why it's neccesary to say "I've been badly treated by bisexual women", like they're a different species. You could just have easy said "I have been hurt by women", and it would still be relevant. Actually in those situations you could just has easily (and correctly said) "I've been hurt by assholes"!!! The mere fact of introducing a disclaimer (i.e that she was bi) immediately starts to put some 'blame' of those actions onto the bisexuality. Whether you intend it to or not

But bably and crumble also said and I was responding to

baby and crumble said
A few of my friends (and my partner) are bi and they tell stories that you wouldn't believe.

Are you saying we can mention the fact that someone is bi when we are talking about hurtful things happening to them but not when they do the hurtful things?

baby and crumble said
There is-( room for bisexual women to say how they feel about relationships with women and how they feel when accused of not taking them seriously or when just simply insulted by lesbians.) but it's not listened to. And that's the big problem.

Im listening baby and crumble and would be particularly interested in hearing from bisexual women telling their stories.
Im sure others would be interested too and this would be a great place for it to happen.

baby and crumble

Ambersky wrote: »

Are you saying we can mention the fact that someone is bi when we are talking about hurtful things happening to them but not when they do the hurtful things?

Well I think that's a fair point, but not quite what I was getting at in my original point. My point was simply trying to illustrate that biphobia is real within the LGBT community. I wasn't trying to counter the 'bi women are all evil and horrible' with that point. I was simply saying I've heard their stories first hand. In that case their sexuality is an important note. I'm not saying bisexual women or men are angels, just like I'm not trying to say the same of lesbians. I'm trying to get across the point that in the above video- as in life in general, as illustrated by some threads I remember in this forum- sweeping statements which are factually wrong are being bandied about because of negative experiences of one or two individuals that share two common attributes: being bi, and being assholes.

Ambersky

baby and crumble said
sweeping statements which are factually wrong are being bandied about because of negative experiences of one or two individuals that share two common attributes: being bi, and being assholes.

and

Actually in those situations you could just has easily (and correctly said) "I've been hurt by assholes"!!!

I dont think the women I mentioned in an earlier post and that I was in a relationship with were assholes.
Maybe at the time baby and crumble I could have done with a few friends like you standing in my corner and calling them assholes. At the time I probably would have joined in.
They behaved thoughtlessly towards me, their behavior was hurtful, but that wasnt simply because they were assholes or because they were bisexual. They were raised and conditioned, as I was, to believe that their relationships with men were more important than any relationship with women. It may have taken them a little longer because they had to struggle with the fact that the option to have relationships with men was open to them in a way it wasnt to me. It doesn't mean their behaviour was ok.
It took me time and practice, without role models or other women to talk to, to figure out my relationships with women and my own sexual identity. It takes most people a bit of time and we make mistakes along the way.

I see this as being a difficulty caused by a social construct, heteronormality, that affects both lesbians and bisexual women.
I do not see it as a problem that is caused by the individuals be they lesbians, bisexuals or assholes. I see their behaviour as the product of the social conditioning, their individual personalities play a part as well sure, they make their choices with the information they have, but the bias comes from social forces first.
Yes it is important to call people on any discrimination but you have to be careful in calling people on things, less you wind up name calling yourself.

Ambersky

I have some questions for any bisexual woman who might feel like posting.
There are quite a few questions but I would be genuinely interested in hearing the experiences of some bisexual women. Your experience may be completely different than those I have mentioned below and that would be interesting too.

So being a bit familiar with the struggle that I initially felt coming out and recognising I was attracted to women, I would like to know what it is like for bisexual women, initially realising they are attracted to women.
I know it doesnt always happen that way and some women find out they are attracted to men after they have been with women for a while, but what is it like finding out you are attracted to women when you are already attracted to men, from your own experience?
Do you or did you take a relationship with a woman as seriously as that with a man. Does that evolve as you go along or is equal respect and treatment something you just always had in you.
Did you fight the attraction with women initially ( I did) and why if you could have a more socially acceptable relationship with a man would you choose a woman. Is it because of a particular woman and the love you feel or are there other factors.

I think these are some questions lesbians wonder about and it might be good to hear some thoughts on these questions. Like it was said earlier bisexual women arent listened to and maybe its difficult to know where to start or what to say. Also just start anywhere if you feel like it. Just a suggestion if anyone would like to .

MarriedButBi

Always a questionable interviewer when they appear to have an agenda, and start a sentence with "I've heard that...."

dragonbait

I don't think that bisexuals have any greater issues with commitment than any other 'sexuals' out there. (and for the record, I do not identify as bi)

That said, many people DO have issues with commitment, confidence and insecurity. I believe that the lesbians in this video may suffer a bit of at least some of the abovementioned aflications.

All I can say is that if she'll leave you for that "dick in her mouth", she'll leave you just as easily for a better ass, perkier breasts, or a fatter wallet.

Is that really someone you want to be with in the first place?

Morag

Happy Bivisibility day.

Medusa22

I'm bi-sexual and to a certain extent I can understand some of the concerns that some lesbians might have but I still think it is quite harsh for some lesbians to say that they have been hurt by a bi-sexual woman so they would never be with another one again.

That is suggesting that we are somehow all the same because of our sexuality. I have been in relationships with men and with women and have treated them both with equal importance. I have never left a lesbian relationship because of societal pressure and I am in fact engaged to my girlfriend.

I have never faced much discrimination and my family like my girlfriend very much, having said that I suppose things would have been simpler with a man but I know that she is the right person for me, and that is more important than any pressure or discrimination from others.

I realised quite early on that I was attracted to boys and girls. However, at first I thought I must be a lesbian so I tried to ignore my thoughts/ fantasies because I was afraid of being a lesbian. Eventually I realised that I was attracted to both sexes and later still I realised that it was ok to be this way.

My first girlfriend was a lesbian and she was worried that I was just experimenting with her and that I would leave her for a man. I did break up with her after several months, but I was fifteen years old and I didn't leave her because of pressure from anyone or for a boy, I just realised we weren't suited.

My now girlfriend and soon to be wife(!) is bi-sexual too and I do sometimes have concerns that she misses being with men. I don't think that this is the same as worrying that she could run off with another woman if she were a lesbian, a man can offer her a sexual experience that I can't and I know that, so it might not always be about a lesbian's insecurity.

I know that some women do treat relationships with lesbians as 'experimenting' but you cannot label all bi-sexuals because of the behaviour of some women. I find it very insulting that some people - gay or straight- think that I am ''greedy'' or on the fence about my sexuality or promiscuous or incapable of having a monogamous relationship.

Ambersky

Thank you Medusa22. Your post sounded very honest and real. I find things easier to understand when people are willing to say how it actually is for them.