Full Scale 737-800 Simulator Home Build

country_lad

Hi all,

Been toying with the idea for a while and just trying to gauge peoples interest in perhaps attempting a 737-800 home simulator build?

I've done quite a bit of research into it and obviously finance and motivation would be the main issues.

Ideally like to re-create interior of 737 cockpit running FsX or Fs2004 for visuals with a wrap around 220 degree view using 3 projectors.

There are numerous resources available online for parts for custom built cockpit (fmc's, main instrument panels, overhead panels, flight yoke replicas etc)

Anyways just thought i'd put the thread out there and get peoples views and it they'd perhaps like to assist/get in on the act?

Not alone could you end up with a fantastic simulator, I believe it would be a fantastic hobby. I've flown the 747 simulator that used to be based in Dalkey and it really is an immersive experience

Mod's please feel free to shift this into "Virtual Aviation" if you feel I'm posting in the wrong location

Duiske

Seen a video recently about a guy who built one for his son, though I doubt the son is getting much of a look-in. I'll have a look around in a bit and see if I can find it.

merisi

A friend of mine owned the one in Dalkey before selling it. It was once the Aer Lingus simulator at Dublin Airport. Don't underestimate the amount of money it will absorb!

country_lad

merisi wrote: »

A friend of mine owned the one in Dalkey before selling it. It was once the Aer Lingus simulator at Dublin Airport. Don't underestimate the amount of money it will absorb!

I know Romek quite well and have met him a few times, really nice guy and a serious setup he had out in the tram yard. You're correct on the financial aspect of things. Ideally it would be great to have a team of 4-5 to get in on the project and split the build./costs etc. I think it would be a fascinating project to work on.

cherrytaz

Just to bump this again to see if any further interest?

A great video below of a home built 737 in Norway. His channel includes videos from concept to completion, a fantastic setup

suasdaguna2

Sad

endacl

suasdaguna2 wrote: »

Sad

Elaborate?

billie1b

endacl wrote: »

Elaborate?

Don't bother with him/her, has been banned from another forum for trolling

Arcto

While I would be far more interested in seeing an A10 homebuild, this is a great idea and I wish you the best of luck with it!

Thread followed for updates :-)

@sad comment: each to their own.

endacl

billie1b wrote: »

Don't bother with him/her, has been banned from another forum for trolling

In 23 posts?!?

billie1b

endacl wrote: »

In 23 posts?!?

Well they were Suasdaguna1, and that vanished and became Suasdaguna2 and then got banned almost immediately

endacl

billie1b wrote: »

Well they were Suasdaguna1, and that vanished and became Suasdaguna2 and then got banned almost immediately

What wouldn't I give to have so much free time, and so little to do with it....

andy_g

Oh if only I had the money to build one maybe two lol be so handy as a training tool for work.

cherrytaz

Arcto wrote: »

While I would be far more interested in seeing an A10 homebuild, this is a great idea and I wish you the best of luck with it!

Thread followed for updates :-)

One of the main reasons for a 737 build is the relative ease of obtaining all the parts. The 737 is the most popular airliner out there and the simulation community reflects this with a multitude of suppliers out there. You could actually build the whole frame/pedestals from pre-manufactured parts but the cost would go through the roof. For example a huge amount of money could be saved by building the main frame using MDF and a skilled carpenter as opposed to buying such a frame for upwards on €5k.

The sim would run Prosim 737 with FSX providing the visuals onto a 220-240 degree wraparound visual system powered by 3 projectors (BenQ ones in the case of the Norwegian project).

All in all you're probably looking in the region of €50-60k hence the call for a team of individuals. Easier said than done of course to attract such finances in the current climate.

I actually found out I am partially colorblind and hence have had to give up the dream of following the commercial pilot route and so want to throw my hat at the next best thing (in my opinion).

endacl

cherrytaz wrote: »

I actually found out I am partially colorblind and hence have had to give up the dream of following the commercial pilot route and so want to throw my hat at the next best thing (in my opinion).

Fighter pilot?!? :pac:

Bad luck. Its a real bummer being disqualified when it isn't something you can work on...

cherrytaz

endacl wrote: »

Fighter pilot?!? :pac:

Bad luck. Its a real bummer being disqualified when it isn't something you can work on...

It was a real blow finding out. I got to the last 80 in Aer Lingus Cadetship last year out in their HQ and that's where it ended. It wasn't actually my eyes that failed me so it was of some comfort at least

Irish Steve

At the risk of making waves, it would be worth considering A320 or any of the Airbus family that has sidestick controls, if you are looking for flight fidelity, simply because getting accurate and realistic control loading and feedback from a traditional yoke is a lot of expensive pain, serious mechanical engineering, and complex electronics to control it all, and if you don't have feedback and loading, then it won't be a realistic flight model, especially when it comes to trimming and speed control, and that's fundamental to accurate flying performance.

If you go Airbus (side stick) family, there is no feedback from the sidestick, so that's a whole area of pain that you don't have to simulate. There's still the rudders to consider, but that's not in quite the same league of hassles, depending on how accurate you want to make the handling for things like single engine handling.

Went there a long time ago, to the extent of building a complete dual control yoke system, and having electric motor trimming, with loading for centring, and it was a world of hassles to get even close to realistic.

The relevant panels are available for 737 and Airbus, so that side of it will be just as hard, or easy, the biggest aspect there will be having the processor horsepower to make it work acceptably, when we were doing this, the processors were 486/100 level, so each display had to have it's own CPU, the network ended up with 19 CPU's, albeit that some of them were running research equipment for eye movement tracking.

The other issue to be aware of is if you plan a single seat or 2 seat cockpit, in that if you go twin seat, that then adds a whole degree of extra complexity in terms of being able to have different displays for P2 from P1.

Another area to make early decisions about is secondary systems, like fuel management, electrics, hydraulics and related systems, some of them can be simulated.

An Instructor/control station is another specific area to get right, and what that instructor station can "inject" in the way of failures or changes to things like weather, or airfield visibility, conflicting traffic, etc.

Best of luck, the hardware is out there to build something that's very close to the capabilities and accuracy of the Level D full motion systems that the airlines use, it's all down to how much time, and money, you can put into the project. It's also equally possible to get it wrong, and end up with something that looks like a 737, but "flies" and handles like a Cessna 180, and that will be incredibly frustrating, especially to people who have experience in either Level D simulators or who fly the real thing.

You might find http://fshistory.simflight.com/fsfan/Interstate%208%20Krefeld,%20Germany.htm worth a read, this event happened nearly 18 years ago. and I can assure you, there was not the same level of hardware around then as there is now, the visuals were 28" CRT's, which were a nightmare to transport and set up.

There's also an old historic boards thread about various simulators at
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=76405483,

dutopia

cherrytaz wrote: »

I actually found out I am partially colorblind and hence have had to give up the dream of following the commercial pilot route and so want to throw my hat at the next best thing (in my opinion).

Same with me buddy. Best of luck with the build, I'd love one too!

cherrytaz

Thanks for the reply and you make a good point regarding the A320 and sidestick. Personally I would like a 737NG and it does appear that there are quite a few more of these been built and resultantly I'd presume there is a larger knowledge pool on how they are built.

Regarding secondary systems, like fuel management, electrics, hydraulics and related systems etc. these would be interfaced with the relevant panels and Prosim737.

I was actually speaking to the owner of the Norwegian 737NG as mentioned previously and he has given me some invaluable information/advice on the potential setup. I have attached an outline excel sheet below which details costs involved. Please take this with a pinch and salt and note the assumptions I have also made (which are indeed quite substantial) with the biggest determining factor in my opinion been the size of the team. Ideally a team of 4.

I have also included a generious contingency of 15%. Any thoughts would be welcome

Irish Steve

I will throw another thought into the pot. Be VERY careful with your visual system, it's one thing to have a realistic visual for a single player/position, and a horse of a very different colour (and price) to have a viable display that's correct for multiple positions within the cabin, and from experience, there's nothing worse than a display that has parallax errors, and makes it impossible for the P2 position to accurately fly an approach profile from the right hand seat, and believe me, I have seen some beauties in that respect, they were wonderfully optimised for the left hand seat, and impossible to land accurately from the right hand seat.

3 K is probably light for the control yokes. A Long time ago, when we were in that part of the world for a flight sim conference in Texas, 3 of us hired a C182 and took a week long trip over to California, one of the justifications being to make a visit to a major breaking yard in Mojave, and bought a set of 727 control yokes, with cross tube, and a centre console, on the basis that 727's were being parted out at that stage, so the parts were considerably cheaper. Close on 15 years ago, the price for that little lot was $1500, and that didn't include shipping them to this part of the world, which would have been another significant factor if I'd not had a friend who worked for an airline, so could get some very attractive rates for shipping cargo himself.

Don't underestimate the work involved in rudder pedals either, if it's going to be a 2 seater, as they have to be cross linked, which adds considerable complexity to the design, and they also have to be adjustable in order to accommodate the different heights of pilots, as the seat position, or to be more specific, the eye height and position is CRITICAL, and there is very little latitude on that position, it's critical to ensuring correct handling during critical flight stages, to the extent that a number of aircraft have a special little device on the centre column of the windscreen that's used to ensure that the seat position is accurately set, a wrong position can lead to incorrect flare angles (and tail strike) and other significant issues (albeit more significant in the full size example than in a sim), but again, it's very much about ensuring the fidelity of the device. There's no pleasure in flying a sim that's supposed to be a 737, and having to handle it like a Cessna 172 because of limitations in the software and hardware interface,

Hope that helps.

Steve

cherrytaz

Irish Steve wrote: »

I will throw another thought into the pot. Be VERY careful with your visual system, it's one thing to have a realistic visual for a single player/position, and a horse of a very different colour (and price) to have a viable display that's correct for multiple positions within the cabin, and from experience, there's nothing worse than a display that has parallax errors, and makes it impossible for the P2 position to accurately fly an approach profile from the right hand seat, and believe me, I have seen some beauties in that respect, they were wonderfully optimised for the left hand seat, and impossible to land accurately from the right hand seat.

3 K is probably light for the control yokes. A Long time ago, when we were in that part of the world for a flight sim conference in Texas, 3 of us hired a C182 and took a week long trip over to California, one of the justifications being to make a visit to a major breaking yard in Mojave, and bought a set of 727 control yokes, with cross tube, and a centre console, on the basis that 727's were being parted out at that stage, so the parts were considerably cheaper. Close on 15 years ago, the price for that little lot was $1500, and that didn't include shipping them to this part of the world, which would have been another significant factor if I'd not had a friend who worked for an airline, so could get some very attractive rates for shipping cargo himself.

Don't underestimate the work involved in rudder pedals either, if it's going to be a 2 seater, as they have to be cross linked, which adds considerable complexity to the design, and they also have to be adjustable in order to accommodate the different heights of pilots, as the seat position, or to be more specific, the eye height and position is CRITICAL, and there is very little latitude on that position, it's critical to ensuring correct handling during critical flight stages, to the extent that a number of aircraft have a special little device on the centre column of the windscreen that's used to ensure that the seat position is accurately set, a wrong position can lead to incorrect flare angles (and tail strike) and other significant issues (albeit more significant in the full size example than in a sim), but again, it's very much about ensuring the fidelity of the device. There's no pleasure in flying a sim that's supposed to be a 737, and having to handle it like a Cessna 172 because of limitations in the software and hardware interface,

Hope that helps.

Steve

Your absolutely correct on the visual system. I'd intend to install a 220-240 degree wraparound visual system using Warpalizer(http://www.warpalizer.com/) to get the image correct. The image would be "thrown" onto the canvas using 3 interlocked projectors. I have flown many sims where the visuals are are either provided by monitors or collimated mirrors however I don't believe such systems do justice to the amount of work invested elsewhere i.e. the cockpit interior. I think you'll agree that the Norwegian 737 project visuals are amazing.

Control Yokes: I have to firm on the cost of these and as you say there is significant work in cross linking. However I don't think this should/would decide on the aircraft type.

I'll continue doing planning and investing potential costs/solutions. Out of curiosity is anyone interested in building such a simulator?

pcpilot

Interesting thread ... yes motivation and costs are the major factors but.. some of the work can be done at a reasonable cost if you can get the right people.

We run a club based in Ireland called PC Pilots Ireland and a number of our members have built sims of all shapes/sizes and costs. The best example I can give you is this

Google PC Pilots Ireland and then almost at the top of the page is a link to "Terrys 737NG Cockpit Project

This shows you how a small cockpit project ended up taking over a whole bedroom - and what can be achieved with a lot of research, just a little know how and some cash !. The sim evolved over a number of years and went through two major redesigns before ending up in its current format and in recent weeks a new throttle quadrant and radio panel have been added. The actual cockpit surround was made locally along with the curved screen. The owner's (Terry) contact details are there should anyone want to contact him. I have flown both left and right hand seats and the views are realistic (mind you, I am not a pilot) and we generally use it flying online with VATSIM for that added realism. If you read the seven pages of Terry's journey to his current version you get some idea of the work required but technology moves along as well so some aspects may become easier / less costly over time. Dont under estimate the engine under the hood as well and also networking a number of PC's instead of hanging everything out of one box (asking for trouble). The seats came from a Fiat Punto in a scrap yard and cost €60 !.

Best wishes with the project and if you need any help I am sure Terry will be happy to offer some advice along the journey.

Ian
PC Pilots Ireland

folbotcar

cherrytaz wrote: »

I actually found out I am partially colorblind and hence have had to give up the dream of following the commercial pilot route and so want to throw my hat at the next best thing (in my opinion).

Some might say that was a lucky escape! The way things are.

But I wouldn't say sims are the next best thing,fun though they might be. You can't beat flying for real. I know plenty of airline pilots who can't wait to throw off the uniform and fly the fun stuff. They find the day job a bit humdrum.

Good idea though!

My ideal sim would be a WW2 fighter linked to an online air combat game.

And yes I would wear goggles and a silk scarf.

pclancy

Heres an example of how to do visuals really well, or build a virtual "soft" cockpit that you can change instantly into any aircraft type you want and visualize the cockpit instead of building the hardware. Built by a helicopter pilot and now turned into a full time business exported worldwide.

I've flown his sims and the immersion is far superior to anything I've ever felt.

www.simpit.co.nz

cherrytaz

pcpilot wrote: »

Interesting thread ... yes motivation and costs are the major factors but.. some of the work can be done at a reasonable cost if you can get the right people.

We run a club based in Ireland called PC Pilots Ireland and a number of our members have built sims of all shapes/sizes and costs. The best example I can give you is this

Google PC Pilots Ireland and then almost at the top of the page is a link to "Terrys 737NG Cockpit Project

This shows you how a small cockpit project ended up taking over a whole bedroom - and what can be achieved with a lot of research, just a little know how and some cash !. The sim evolved over a number of years and went through two major redesigns before ending up in its current format and in recent weeks a new throttle quadrant and radio panel have been added. The actual cockpit surround was made locally along with the curved screen. The owner's (Terry) contact details are there should anyone want to contact him. I have flown both left and right hand seats and the views are realistic (mind you, I am not a pilot) and we generally use it flying online with VATSIM for that added realism. If you read the seven pages of Terry's journey to his current version you get some idea of the work required but technology moves along as well so some aspects may become easier / less costly over time. Dont under estimate the engine under the hood as well and also networking a number of PC's instead of hanging everything out of one box (asking for trouble). The seats came from a Fiat Punto in a scrap yard and cost €60 !.

Best wishes with the project and if you need any help I am sure Terry will be happy to offer some advice along the journey.

Ian
PC Pilots Ireland

Hi Ian,

It's Terry here from Eiresim (I've been in contact with you over years a few times!) I've been following Terry McGee's progress alright over the years, it seems to be turning into a top notch setup.

I see what you are saying about the such items as the seats which can be taken from cars, but I think If i were to progress with this simulator I would try and get replica parts where possible. These are of course expensive but I think the overall result is worth it.

From speaking to the guy who built the Norwegian 737 project, he has informed me that the systems uses 5 networked PC's with the entire structure been self-contained, making it easier to transport if required.

I've flown the Upilot 737 sim in T2 a number of weeks ago and the cockpit itself is fantastic, however I think the visual systems lets it down slightly by using monitors instead of a wrap-around system (my personal opinion of course).

I must actually give Terry another email and get some further info

cherrytaz

folbotcar wrote: »

Some might say that was a lucky escape! The way things are.

But I wouldn't say sims are the next best thing,fun though they might be. You can't beat flying for real. I know plenty of airline pilots who can't wait to throw off the uniform and fly the fun stuff. They find the day job a bit humdrum.

Good idea though!

My ideal sim would be a WW2 fighter linked to an online air combat game.

And yes I would wear goggles and a silk scarf.

By reading up on PPrune and the likes you may well be correct when saying I had a lucky escape. The number of young people who appear to be "paying to fly" seems to be on the increase with the terms with the airlines been less than generous. The dream pilot job doesn't appear so dreamy these days.

I suppose when we break down the build of a 737 sim, we are looking at approximately 12k each from 4 members of a team to build a highly realistic setup. One of the possibilities I suppose would be to rent the sim out to the public/trainee pilots to try and recoup some costs but I would like to stress that my desire behind this project is NOT to run a business, it is simply to bring my hobby/passion to the next level

Stinicker

This sounds like a good way to end up on some sort of terrorist no fly watch list.

cherrytaz

Stinicker wrote: »

This sounds like a good way to end up on some sort of terrorist no fly watch list.

In what way? It's simply taking a hobby to the next level!

Elessar

Thought I'd repost this here as others here mightn't see it:

To scratch my own itch about this I've done some research and there are two companies that build and sell airline simulators to enthusiasts.

The first is Flight Simulator Center in Italy. They build and sell a full 737NG fixed base sim. You can buy the barebones or a full complete simulator. A kit including the cockpit shell, MCP, EFIS, FMC, linked yokes & rudder pedals and 2 737 replica seats will set you back €59k. That's without the overhead panel and throttle quadrant or any of the display equipment or computers. You have to enquire about the full build but I would imagine its circa €100k.

The other is Flight Deck Solutions in Canada. They don't have prices displayed for their pro-level simulators but one US based forum member was quoted $109kCAD. They DO however have an enthusiast level sister company called JetMax which sells a single side 737NG replica with throttle quadrant/overhead as options. Looks really quite impressive and much more affordable at about $7kUSD for THIS.

Quite tempted myself actually...

EDIT: VIDEO

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u68aRS5Ze1o

Nforce

If you're minted and fancy an Airbus sim...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Airbus-A320-Flight-Simulator-purchase-or-franchise-/281408123391?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item41853b31ff

iFly Pilot

Another company who supply home built cockpits is Sismo Soluciones in Spain. sismo-soluciones.com
I have their products in my B737NG cockpit. pcpilotsireland.com

iFly Pilot

Here's another A320 Cockpit Sim for sale.
It's based in Norther Ireland
pcpilotsireland.com/forum/index.php?topic=919.0

Terry
PC Pilots Ireland

Elessar

iFly Pilot wrote: »

Here's another A320 Cockpit Sim for sale.
It's based in Norther Ireland
pcpilotsireland.com/forum/index.php?topic=919.0

Terry
PC Pilots Ireland

Hi Terry you've an impressive setup! Is the magazine still produced, I haven't been a member for a long time!

iFly Pilot

Thanks, it's taken me some time to get to where it is now.
I've recently added a Jetmax 737 Throttle Quadrant and a Sismo Soluciones Radio Panel.

Yes, our club is still going (20 years now) and our magazine 'PC Flight' is still being produced every quarter.
See the PC Flight page on our website pcpilotsireland.com for details on the latest issue.

Terry
PC Pilots Ireland