Beginners Krav Maga in Baldoyle

Rob2593

Hey guys, I saw quite a few people on boards.ie were looking to start Krav Maga or find out more about it and seeing as there is a course going soon (which is perfect for beginners) I thought I'd take the opportunity to inform you all. It's for both women & men.

I've been doing it for years now so if anyone has any questions please do not hesitate to ask!

bill buchanan

Rob2593 wrote: »

I've been doing it for years now so if anyone has any questions please do not hesitate to ask!

well you did say "any" questions......

Do you really believe it's "realistic"?

I did it for a few years until I realised it as just pure fantasy, IMHO. I couldn't take a hit and had no proper endurance or strategic thinking after about 2 years of KM (though I didn't know it at the time)

Changed over to kickboxing and even the weakest fighers in my current gym would easily deal ith my old KM instructor or any of the senior guys in the KM class. That's my opinion, of course.

I wonder what the doormen etc on here would think of the "realistic" claim?

Rob2593

bill buchanan wrote: »

well you did say "any" questions......

Do you really believe it's "realistic"?

I did it for a few years until I realised it as just pure fantasy, IMHO. I couldn't take a hit and had no proper endurance or strategic thinking after about 2 years of KM (though I didn't know it at the time)

Changed over to kickboxing and even the weakest fighers in my current gym would easily deal ith my old KM instructor or any of the senior guys in the KM class. That's my opinion, of course.

I wonder what the doormen etc on here would think of the "realistic" claim?

Hi Bill

Glad you asked actually. Do I believe it's realistic? Absolutely. I'm 20 years old and this is the most common time in anyone's life to be attacked (mainly at night clubs and what not) I have had to use Krav Maga several times in my life, some more serious than others. For instance, last new years eve 5 lads surrounded me and my mate with bottles (all very angry and trying to rob us). With my knowledge in Krav alone, I managed to knock one out, fight off another and the other three were too scared to attack after that. So yes it is realistic, that proves it DOES WORK. Just to clarify, I'm only 70kgs - and somewhat skinny, so I'm not some big guy who looks tough and would win anyway, I started from nothing.

Your own personal experience seems to me like your instructor was the problem, not you. Did you guys do much sparring? If so how early on was it? (too early can be a very big problem).

With regards to doormen, I'm actually partaking in an instructor course with one who has been working on the doors for just over 11 years. He has tried just about everything there is, and has found Krav was the only one that was realistic for his line of work. He's told me countless stories where he had to use Krav to save himself (all moves even beginners had even learnt).

So overall Bill, your instructor sounds like he wasn't experienced enough to teach a class as he was doing it wrong. I urge you to try a different club.

I hope these answers help you out.

bill buchanan

Rob2593 wrote: »

So overall Bill, your instructor sounds like he wasn't experienced enough to teach a class as he was doing it wrong. I urge you to try a different club.

You may well be right. Though I trained under 2 instructors in 2 different countries, because I was right into it back then and did all the seminars with the instructors from Israel. One of the instructors would have been the most experienced in the country at the time.

One of them was into heavy sparring, the other wasn't. But the sparring wouldn't have resembled anything learned in class and wasn't as tough as the KB sparring.

I'm a very very low level kickboxer, but I wouldn't fancy the chances of most KM students against a half decent MMA, MT, KB or boxing student. But on the other hand, most knackers that attack someone will be just untrained scumbags, so my opinion may not matter too much from that perspective.

Rob2593

bill buchanan wrote: »

You may well be right. Though I trained under 2 instructors in 2 different countries, because I was right into it back then and did all the seminars with the instructors from Israel. One of the instructors would have been the most experienced in the country at the time.

One of them was into heavy sparring, the other wasn't. But the sparring wouldn't have resembled anything learned in class and wasn't as tough as the KB sparring.

I'm a very very low level kickboxer, but I wouldn't fancy the chances of most KM students against a half decent MMA, MT, KB or boxing student. But on the other hand, most knackers that attack someone will be just untrained scumbags, so my opinion may not matter too much from that perspective.

I see, that's very odd seeing as the instructors from Israel are the best in the world.

In our classes we go through all the syllabus (escapes from holds etc) and then we do boxing (at first pad work then eventually sparring). We also do some ground work; should you come across an MMA or BJJ fighter. I've gone to boxing clubs, BJJ classes, MMA classes and several other martial art centres and had no problem fitting in and not lacking behind and all I've ever done is Krav.

When it comes to rules and fighting in a ring, MMA would be the most logic choice, however should you start grappling with a BJJ or MMA fighter on the street; they wouldn't expect a strike to the groin or fingers in the eyes, which puts them at a serious disadvantage.

At the end of the day it comes down to who trains the most but personally I think Krav allows the user to have minimal training and still have a good fighting chance against other trained individuals. But as you said, it's very unlikely you're going to get in a fight with a trained person as it's usually just random junkies or scumbags who think they can fight, trying to show off or rob you.

HammerHeadGym

I'm a bouncer for 17 years now. I've trained in many things over that time.

What works are combat sports with competitive sparring in every class. What doesn't is fantasist combat against willing partners. The Krav I learned (from a sergeant in the Israeli Defence Forces) falls under the latter.

HammerHeadGym

Rob2593 wrote: »

...At the end of the day it comes down to who trains the most

Totally agree

Rob2593 wrote: »

...Krav allows the user to have minimal training and still have a good fighting chance against other trained individuals.

This is completely wrong. I speak from bitter experience. It's also dangerous advice.

cletus

Which bjj club did you go to that you were able to hold your own with just krav?

arybvtcw0eolkf

Rob2593 wrote: »

When it comes to rules and fighting in a ring, MMA would be the most logic choice, however should you start grappling with a BJJ or MMA fighter on the street; they wouldn't expect a strike to the groin or fingers in the eyes, which puts them at a serious disadvantage.

It puts you at absolutely no disadvantage what so ever.. Just because we don't use eye gouging or groin strikes in class doesn't mean one can't use them in a row on the street.

I've also trained KM, I've trained here as part of work syllabus and in Israel with the Israeli Defense Forces ~ as an invitee when I competed (Judo) in Wingate University.

Most IDF instructors I spoke to also trained BJJ, Judo, boxing etc.. Most IDF units don't even have KM as part of the basic recruit training syllabus.

Like Hammerhead I work the doors too, twenty plus years and continuing and in opinion KM is bullsh*t.

Keith Martin (your instructor) is a nice bloke, he'll give people a good workout.. Is he still teaching TKD?.

Dermighty

Rob2593 wrote: »

When it comes to rules and fighting in a ring, MMA would be the most logic choice, however should you start grappling with a BJJ or MMA fighter on the street; they wouldn't expect a strike to the groin or fingers in the eyes, which puts them at a serious disadvantage.

I'm also a doorman.

I fail to see why people think that a fighting style limits peoples abilities when it comes to a scrap.

It's very naive to think of a bjj fighter as someone who wants to take you to the ground. An example being an arm drag gives me the positioning I want and a guillotine gives me the control I want. I can do both of these standing, kneeling or sitting.

Even people a lot smaller than you can be very difficult to manipulate, a fully resisting opponent in a gym isn't as close as people think to a scrap in a club or in the street.

Trying to incorporate everything into an umbrella type martial art then saying that it's more effective than each individual martial art is ridiculous. Aggression, cardio and toughness are more common and often more effective than techniques and someone who is aggressive and purely wants to beat the **** out of you will more often than not provide a far tougher opponent than someone who trains Krav Maga, or any martial art regularly.

Tough training makes you an effective fighter, not knowing techniques.

Rob2593

Put it this way, if someone who trained in kick boxing or MMA was put against 2-3 people - they'd have a problem. Simply because they're used to fighting one person and only concentrating on them.

Secondly, if someone had a knife or some sort of weapon; someone who trained in a martial art would have very limited knowledge (if any) of what to do. Whereas with Krav you actually train against people with weapons.

If I was to step into a ring today with someone who had been training MMA the same time I have been training Krav, then they'd most likely win. If it was visa versa and on the streets, the most likely I would win, simply because I'd kick them in the balls. They wouldn't know how to react as they're used to rules and what not.

Of course this is all just speculation and my own opinion.

Keith Martin (your instructor) is a nice bloke, he'll give people a good workout.. Is he still teaching TKD?.

Not anymore, he's moved mainly to the Krav now. He's still unreal at the TKD though!

pablohoney87

Rob2593 wrote: »

Put it this way, if someone who trained in kick boxing or MMA was put against 2-3 people - they'd have a problem. Simply because they're used to fighting one person and only concentrating on them.

Secondly, if someone had a knife or some sort of weapon; someone who trained in a martial art would have very limited knowledge (if any) of what to do. Whereas with Krav you actually train against people with weapons.

If I was to step into a ring today with someone who had been training MMA the same time I have been training Krav, then they'd most likely win. If it was visa versa and on the streets, the most likely I would win, simply because I'd kick them in the balls. They wouldn't know how to react as they're used to rules and what not.

Of course this is all just speculation and my own opinion.



Not anymore, he's moved mainly to the Krav now. He's still unreal at the TKD though!

You would not simply kick any skilled fighter in the balls as they would not stand there with their legs open like your fully compliant training partner, so can we just throw out the ridiculous argument of mma fighters being bound by rules. It comes up every time and it is equally ridiculous as you do not train with any realistic fight situation. So it would be just as hard for you to kick somebody in the balls as it would to land the a basic jab.

I really wish every km thread didn't turn into this but the same ignorance shows up each side regarding rules, groin strikes, head butts and eye gouges

Peetrik

Rob2593 wrote: »

If I was to step into a ring today with someone who had been training MMA the same time I have been training Krav, then they'd most likely win. If it was visa versa and on the streets, the most likely I would win, simply because I'd kick them in the balls. They wouldn't know how to react as they're used to rules and what not.

I cringe every time I hear this completely and utterly wrong argument.

The only way to actually learn a technique is to practice it full force on a full resisting opponent, otherwise you just know of it.

Unless you are practicing on a full resisting opponent in live sparring 3-4 times a week (not slow motion on someone who is expecting it) then I have just as much chance of landing that strike to the balls.

In fact, because I spar 5-6 days a week on a fully resisting opponent, practicing my range, distance plus not shíting myself every time I get hit hard, I have a MUCH greater chance of landing that kick to the balls.

I'm going to +1 all the recommendations to avoid Krav Maga altogether.

pablohoney87

Peetrik wrote: »

I'm going to +1 all the recommendations to avoid Krav Maga altogether.

Right now that is the case. But if it was trained correctly there are definitely some interesting techniques, similar to ninjitsu.

So like all styles when you take it and disect it and combine it with a style in which the practicioners know something about angles, there is definitely some things that can be taken and played with.

But first things first, is that the mentality of the instructors/practicioners/whoever makers it MUST change.

Niall Keane

Anyone seen that movie "Groundhog Day"?

arybvtcw0eolkf

Rob2593 wrote: »

Put it this way, if someone who trained in kick boxing or MMA was put against 2-3 people - they'd have a problem. Simply because they're used to fighting one person and only concentrating on them.

Secondly, if someone had a knife or some sort of weapon; someone who trained in a martial art would have very limited knowledge (if any) of what to do. Whereas with Krav you actually train against people with weapons.

If I was to step into a ring today with someone who had been training MMA the same time I have been training Krav, then they'd most likely win. If it was visa versa and on the streets, the most likely I would win, simply because I'd kick them in the balls. They wouldn't know how to react as they're used to rules and what not.

Of course this is all just speculation and my own opinion.

Fighting more than more person..

Buddy, your argument is rubbish ~ it really is.. If I was to joke about it I'd say 'Bruce Lee would have trouble fighitng more than one untrained person at a time.

I've told you I've trained KM, and believe me I've fought more or a few people through my job as a bouncer and no matter how practiced I am in a club, or experienced I am on the door if I'm alone and there's more than one person I'm in deep, deep sh*t.

See this is another thing we have a problem with in this forum, KM trying to sale itself as something its not.. Preying on people's insecurities and leaving them deluded, thinking they can disarm assailants with knives, or fighting off hourdes of scum ~ thats simply not the case, and it never will be.

Some lads are naturally tough and can fight more than one person, they're the exception and those lads don't need training because no matter what they done they'd be tough motherf*ckers and hard to beat.

God dammit I swore I'd never get into another KM discussion :mad:

cowzerp

Getting hit in the balls sucks, but in a real fight where the ref doesn't allow you to stop anyone used to fighting will just carry on, Only reason I ever stop in competition is because i can!

Plenty of times playing football I'd get an awful smack of the ball in the nuts, get the ball pass it out and when danger was gone deal with the great discomfort, when someone planned on Smashing me then this would be even more pronounced.

In saying that some people are just soft and will fall with the slightest discomfort, Krav in most cases is just low level MMA and probably suits people who'd prefer learn without the competitive mindset.

arybvtcw0eolkf

cowzerp wrote: »

Krav in most cases is just low level MMA and probably suits people who'd prefer learn without the competitive mindset.

Its not even close to what you and I would consider MMA.. Its closer to Kata with willing partners.

arybvtcw0eolkf

An after thought.. OP we're not totally against KM here in the forum, we're against the idea of it preying on peoples insecurities and giving people a deluded sense of their abilities should things go diddies up.

As a martial art its fun, and the right instructors will give you a great workout.. There are far worse styles out there which I also like to watch, Kendo and Aikido for example but they're not worth tup'pennys f*ck unless you're gonna walk around with a baseball ball or up on your toes like a ballerina.

People think because a powerful no holds barred army like the IDF use KM that its super-powerful effective but when the IDF wants you dead they'll drop a big bomb on your head, you won't be kratty chopped to death

When the IDF boarded that infamous flotilla to Gaza they weren't attacked with machineguns and pistols, they were attacked by idiots with sticks and iron bars ~ what do you think the IDF done (hint; it wasn't Krav Maga) ~ they shot the dopes in the head with machine guns and pistols.

Dermighty

Niall Keane wrote: »

Anyone seen that movie "Groundhog Day"?

Ned?

Ned Ryerson??

Jada Powerful Rioter wrote: »

I've fought more or a few people through my job as a bouncer and no matter how practiced I am in a club, or experienced I am on the door if I'm alone and there's more than one person I'm in deep, deep sh*t.

This is very true. Anyone who does anything other than try to run away in this scenario is a moron and I say that from personal experience.

Regarding what you were saying about fighting someone in the street I'll see your kick to the balls and raise you a double leg and a stomp to the head and we will see who gets up from that fight, that's a move you can learn from watching the Heineken cup in the pub.

Also, this whole IDF thing, a friend of mine was in the Israeli army and laughed when I mentioned KM, saying it was more martketing than reality.

Mellor

Rob2593 wrote: »

When it comes to rules and fighting in a ring, MMA would be the most logic choice, however should you start grappling with a BJJ or MMA fighter on the street; they wouldn't expect a strike to the groin or fingers in the eyes, which puts them at a serious disadvantage.

...

If I was to step into a ring today with someone who had been training MMA the same time I have been training Krav, then they'd most likely win. If it was visa versa and on the streets, the most likely I would win, simply because I'd kick them in the balls. They wouldn't know how to react as they're used to rules and what not.

My uncle was in the Ukraine last week and he got into a fight in a bar and beated up both Klitschko brothers.
Whats more impessive is that my uncle has no arms!!!
He just kicked them in the legs and they panicked because they didn't know what to do, and after a few kicks they were begging him to stop.

Mellor

Ok, so that's out of the way. Hopefully you got my serious point behind the ridiculousness.

I've never done KM. I've seen KM demos, both live and on youtube. And I've never seen anything that doesn't look like choreographed sequences with a willing opponent. Obviously, the "anything goes" striking, isn't suitable for full contact demos but there's nothing stopping KM "exhibitions" without them.
Obviously KM isn't a competitive MA, but has a KM expert or student ever fought another to test their skills in a live environment.

Despite the different purposes, Krav Maga and MMA aren't far apart. Very few techniques need to be removed from KM for it to fall within the MMA ruleset. If it really was this optimum NHB fighting method, then why have virtually no KM guys transitioned to and been successful in MMA. The argument that its a lot of KM techniques are not suitable for MMA doesn't hold up because boxing, kickboxing, Muay Thai, TKD, BJJ, wrestling and judo all have techniques that don't work in MMA. Yet, fighters from each of those styles have transitioned.

I found the comment that you've held your own in boxing clubs, BJJ classes, and MMA classes interesting. It's not important, but which clubs? Or, this one is important, what level? Not slacking behind or holding your own when rolling with some blue and purple belts would be impressive imo, not sticking out in a beginners or white belt class wouldn't be.

Tom.D.BJJ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByZqx30OvVs

Dermighty

Tom.D.BJJ wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByZqx30OvVs

Bing!

deanopride1

People should always call out bulls*it martial arts/krav maga or whatever people want to call what there doing, particularly when they accept money and instill a very false sense of security. When i was younger i trained in a traditional/ wrist lock/ weapons/ multiple attacker/ groin strike/ eye gouge etc etc crap. After 2 years i thought i was easily capable of defending myself outside abrakababra on a saturday night as in class we where all complying and bigging each other up and saying how the new wrist trap, hip throw, groin strike would destroy anybody. Believe me when i say you cant see what people are on about when they say this stuff doesn't work, cause in class you idolise your instructor and everyone thinks its brilliant. Then i walked into a
BJJ class( got tapped so many times i didnt know what was going on).
Boxing class( Got really punched in the face and my bell rung hard)
Wrestling class( got slammed into the ground and exhausted within minutes)
MMA Class( All of the above but even more exhausting)
It was then i got angry that there are people out there exploiting others and me, taking their money and allowing them to get there head boxed in indeed outside abrakabara all the while under the illusional they will defend themselves with these new found skills.
I was attacked by a gang of lads on the hapenny bridge trying to rob me and my girlfriend and all i used was basic boxing. I was attacked by a drunk idiot outside a nightclub and all i used was basic wrestling and BJJ. In both scenarios i came out alive because of my training in the things i did in an alive environment over the course of many many hours of real sparring. If i had have relied on my wrist lock, eye gouges and groin shots i honestly can say i would have been fu**ed. But until anybody who does this ****e really does the latter sports they will never ever understand no matter what anyone tells them.

Dyr

I'd stay away from abrakebabra if I was you.

except for the taco cheese fries I guess

cowzerp

In fairness to Keith he was out with me to learn new skills, mainly Boxing so from that point of view he is learning the right tools to defend yourself, Lot's of Krav teachers just move from TKD, Do a course/money racket and are teaching Krav without really knowing all areas of combat, ground/clinch and striking.

Diaz

I wonder why TKD guys tend to drift over into teaching Krav Maga so much?