Kool therm cavity closers

john_cappa

Anyone used these? Any good? Pros cons?

http://www.kingspaninsulation.ie/Products/Kooltherm/Kooltherm-Cavity-Closer/Overview.aspx

hexosan

I'd be interested to hear opinions on this as well

jonniebgood1

They seem like a development of thermabate cavity closers. Thermabate was an English company who produced these until 2007/08 at which stage they were bought by Kingspan AFAIK (open to correction as I am posting from memory). The idea is fundamentally sound in that they help achieve a better (fuller) insulation junction on door/window jambs and heads. They are sold in lengths but I recall the thermabate ones were quite expensive.

john_cappa

I have a sample ordered to show to my block layer. That said it might now even be the blocklayer fitting as I assume these cant be fitted until after the windows etc are fitted??

hexosan

Was at the self build show and seen these. The max cavity they can span is 150mm which rules them out for my 250mm build.

john_cappa

hexosan wrote: »

Was at the self build show and seen these. The max cavity they can span is 150mm which rules them out for my 250mm build.

No they can be used for wider cavities by clipping two together. 150mm plus a 100mm one with some type of clip

john_cappa

john_cappa wrote: »

No hey can be used for wider cavities by clipping two together. 150mm plus a 100mm one with some type of clip

http://www.kingspaninsulation.co.uk/getattachment/7c6e81d0-33b8-4210-ade3-1c18e97d4fdc/Kooltherm-Cavity-Closer.aspx

See detail here on page 4 re wider cavity. Obviously you need twice the amount so cost will close to double.

hexosan

john_cappa wrote: »

http://www.kingspaninsulation.co.uk/getattachment/7c6e81d0-33b8-4210-ade3-1c18e97d4fdc/Kooltherm-Cavity-Closer.aspx

See detail here on page 4 re wider cavity. Obviously you need twice the amount so cost will close to double.

Thanks for that, goes to show the quality of the staff they employ on the stands at these build shows. I was told there was no way to do a wider cavity. I quizzed the guy and suggested could they be butt joined and was told no.

john_cappa

Surely someone must have used these?

archtech

Specify them or similar all the the time . They are a no brainier in terms of reducing thermal bridging around opes.

john_cappa

archtech wrote: »

Specify them or similar all the the time . They are a no brainier in terms of reducing thermal bridging around opes.

How easy are they to install? My block layer has not used them before. Are they the kind of thing that are fairly self intuitive to install?

john_cappa

archtech wrote: »

Specify them or similar all the the time . They are a no brainier in terms of reducing thermal bridging around opes.

Or similar? What competing products are available in ireland?

archtech

john_cappa wrote: »

How easy are they to install? My block layer has not used them before. Are they the kind of thing that are fairly self intuitive to install?

Straight forward, details on product data sheet. Like anyway just need a bit of attention and care.

john_cappa wrote: »

Or similar? What competing products are available in ireland?

Google finds everything

john_cappa

Sounds promising. I have ordered a sample so waiting for it to arrive.

fealeranger

They make things complicated when you have to join them together to achieve a wide cavity closer like 300mm. There is a smooth area that will not take finished sand and cement so you have to use a mesh wire to help hold it in pace. I looked at this when we were building our house and fair play to Kingspan, the area rep called out and went through everything with me in great detail and their prices were very competitive at the time.

john_cappa

fealeranger wrote: »

They make things complicated when you have to join them together to achieve a wide cavity closer like 300mm. There is a smooth area that will not take finished sand and cement so you have to use a mesh wire to help hold it in pace. I looked at this when we were building our house and fair play to Kingspan, the area rep called out and went through everything with me in great detail and their prices were very competitive at the time.

Did you use them in the end?

fealeranger

john_cappa wrote: »

Did you use them in the end?

No I didn't bother.

hexosan

fealeranger wrote: »

No I didn't bother.

Can I ask how did you close off the cavity in your own build.

john_cappa

I found serveral competing products. Bigblok is one. Having trouble finding somewhere local that stocks it though.


Waiting on a sample from kingspan and the rep is due to call out to our site.

fealeranger

john_cappa wrote: »

I found serveral competing products. Bigblok is one. Having trouble finding somewhere local that stocks it though.


Waiting on a sample from kingspan and the rep is due to call out to our site.

I also looked into Bigblok Cavalock and the poblem with this is the guy selling it is not very good at answering his phone and if you want to get it you need to buy it by the pallet, no single lengths. What I did was get 2inch floor insulation, cut it to fit the cavity and seal it into the cavity around the doors and windows. Excellent job and at a fraction of the price. Same thing as the other products cavity closers less the flange holding the insulation.

hexosan

fealeranger wrote: »

I also looked into Bigblok Cavalock and the poblem with this is the guy selling it is not very good at answering his phone and if you want to get it you need to buy it by the pallet, no single lengths. What I did was get 2inch floor insulation, cut it to fit the cavity and seal it into the cavity around the doors and windows. Excellent job and at a fraction of the price. Same thing as the other products cavity closers less the flange holding the insulation.

It's looking like ill end up doing something similar with my cavity. What did you use to seal the insulation in place. Any chance you have a pic you could upload.

I also looked into cavalok, they put me in touch with Securiframe who are the manufacturers and distributors of the product. The tech dept was great at answering questions. Plus the shipping cost was cost prohibitive. There was an Irish company selling them. But when I made contact they never bothered coming back to me with an answer.

Carbonnet

Tries to look at BBA certification in relation to fire - VERY difficult to achieve 1/2 hour over 150mm - doesn't mention this in certificate for Thermabate - but BBA cert is out of date - just check into it

john_cappa

hexosan wrote: »

There was an Irish company selling them. But when I made contact they never bothered coming back to me with an answer.

I am guessing you mean the below company.

http://iconstruction.ie/products/cavity-closers.htm

I contacted them and they are no longer selling them anymore. Choices are limited! Will meet the kingspan rep and get the sample and see what they are like. If the close it and are neat and tidy then I will use them.

fclauson

We manufactured our own closures from solid board

You have to think where and how you are going to fit the window and support the cill

Certified

john_cappa wrote: »

Choices are limited! Will meet the kingspan rep and get the sample and see what they are like. If the close it and are neat and tidy then I will use them.

If you are not convinced by them, I would suggest getting the block layers to build in a 50mm strip of standard floor insulation when they are constructing the window and door opes, alternatively use 18mm OSB3 timber liners.

Timber liners are an ideal solution once you exceed a 200mm cavity.

BarneyMc

Certified wrote: »

Timber liners are an ideal solution once you exceed a 200mm cavity.

Can you expand on this please? Any photos?

john_cappa

Met the rep and got the sample. Not hugely impressed to be honest. They are ok but seem a small bit flimsey.

Will cost circa 700 euros (assuming I fit them to close the cavity).

Certified

BarneyMc wrote: »

Can you expand on this please? Any photos?

Liner boards can be made from 18mm OSB3 sheets. They are cut to the widths and lengths required on site and fixed to the reveals.
They will close the cavity, protect from fire, remove cold bridging issues and provide a suitable secure fixing structure for the windows/doors.
They also simplify fixing the airtight tapes as there is no need for awkward fixing straps for the windows/doors and cheaper tapes can be used.

I would specify liner boards once the cavity exceeds 200mm, under that I would use the more traditional method of getting the block layers to build in 50mm insulation strips and return with block around the opes.
Using the 50mm insulation strip is the most economical method I can think of but at a certain point the cavity width gets too large using standard blocks on site and this method gets harder to construct, fragile for fixings and introduces a weakness into the insulation layer.
There are alternatives but that’s generally what I would do.

hexosan

Certified wrote: »

Liner boards can be made from 18mm OSB3 sheets. They are cut to the widths and lengths required on site and fixed to the reveals.
They will close the cavity, protect from fire, remove cold bridging issues and provide a suitable secure fixing structure for the windows/doors.
They also simplify fixing the airtight tapes as there is no need for awkward fixing straps for the windows/doors and cheaper tapes can be used.

I would specify liner boards once the cavity exceeds 200mm, under that I would use the more traditional method of getting the block layers to build in 50mm insulation strips and return with block around the opes.
Using the 50mm insulation strip is the most economical method I can think of but at a certain point the cavity width gets too large using standard blocks on site and this method gets harder to construct, fragile for fixings and introduces a weakness into the insulation layer.
There are alternatives but that’s generally what I would do.

Is there any issues with the osb board rotting over time.

fclauson

Couple of things

I would suggest marine ply over osb
50mm is not enough
Get PROPER drawings AND full thermal bridge analysis done before you lay a single block
Think how you will stop the window cill dropping backwards into the cavity
Think about where the dpc needs to be

Get a pro involved who UNDERSTANDS this type of detail

Certified

hexosan wrote: »

Is there any issues with the osb board rotting over time.

A Dpc needs to be used to prevent that from ever happening.
A badly designed detail no matter what the material at this location is serious.
As fclauson says, a pro should be involved from the design stage.

Carbonnet

Why not simply turn the block as was traditional and put 40mm of insulation in instead of 25mm? It means you've a solid ground for your windows and doors,you'll avoid cracking, have a fire barrier, and thermal bridging below the 0.05 target as required in Part L.

Curious Geroge

Carbonnet wrote: »

Why not simply turn the block as was traditional and put 40mm of insulation in instead of 25mm? It means you've a solid ground for your windows and doors,you'll avoid cracking, have a fire barrier, and thermal bridging below the 0.05 target as required in Part L.

I have my block turned in on a 150mm cavity leaving about 50mm to external wall. What is the best way to close this cavity. Its been suggested to use cuts of insulation board and sealing the cavity with no holes. Would this work ?

hexosan

Curious Geroge wrote: »

I have my block turned in on a 150mm cavity leaving about 50mm to external wall. What is the best way to close this cavity. Its been suggested to use cuts of insulation board and sealing the cavity with no holes. Would this work ?

Any chance you have pics of this.

fclauson

Has some one done a psi calf on this turned in block - the ACDs have a narrower cavity which in turn will not exaggerate the thermal bridge thus built - going to a wider one might

Please get a calc done to ensure no condensation later