Can we attract a billion in investment?

SupaNova2

Why not?

Australia

If you have money to burn and want to go down under for permanent residency and potential citizenship, then Australia's Significant Investor Visa is the way to start.


Launched in November 2012, the program targets high net-worth individuals and requires a roughly $4.7 million investment. Applicants can invest in government bonds, infrastructure projects or private companies.


In return -- and in as little as three months -- a significant investor visa can be issued. After four years, holders can apply for permanent residency.
From the program's launch through May, more than 170 applications have been filed. If all are given the green light, Australia will receive $850 million in new foreign investment.


Benefits to Australian residency include free health care, some of the world's best beaches and visa-free access to more than 160 countries -- on par with passport holders from the United States and United Kingdom.

According to the 2012 Hanley & Partners Visa Restrictions index Ireland is in 5th Place, 1 Place ahead of Australia. We have a very marketable passport. Setting our price at €4 million selling just 250 passports would gain us a billion in investment.

notharrypotter

Didn't we try this in the 1980's?

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/haugheys-lunch-date-with-bin-ladens-brotherinlaw-26251059.html

SupaNova2

No as far as I can tell that was one deal done in secret with a Saudi banker. What Australia are doing, and others, is giving an open invitation to any wealthy individual that if they meet certain investment criteria and background checks they can eventually obtain a passport.

Cookie_Monster

What an odd programme. Considering how easy it is to get a visa as a skilled migrant anyway what exactly are the benefits of spending $5m when $2-3k can get you exactly the same thing in the same space of time?

SupaNova2

We are not talking about skilled workers, you can gain a visa as a skilled migrant in Australia also, their significant investor visa targets wealthy people who do not necessarily want to work in the country. As it stands they have close to 200 applicants who see the benefits and have bothered to apply.

gallag

Or just do another "gathering", concentrating on the already successful pharma/IT sectors and promoting investment in manufacturing and protecting the corp tax is where the work should be done, not international cup shaking.

SupaNova2

gallag wrote: »

Or just do another "gathering", concentrating on the already successful pharma/IT sectors and promoting investment in manufacturing and protecting the corp tax is where the work should be done, not international cup shaking.

The international cup shaking as you call it doesn't require taking our eye off corp tax and promotion of pharma/IT sectors. It can compliment it. Australia requires you invest in government bonds, infrastructure projects or private companies, we could choose infrastructure projects that cater to the needs of the pharma/IT sectors.

mariaalice

We could make Ireland a sort of Elysium ( any one see the film ) for the worlds wealthy, think about it we are surrounded by the sea so easy to keep the rif raf out and all the native Irish could be employed looking after our new billionaire inhabitants.

SupaNova2

Can we end the sarcastic replies. Give a yes or no answer to the question "why not?" and reasons for your answer or don't post at all.

mariaalice

I am sorry about that, I though something simile at one stage until it was pointed out that we already have an something like that its called an investment visa, many countries have them including the USA and you can get citizenship in Ireland as long as you live here a certain amount of time and satisfy a few other criteria, did you ever see the citizenship ceremony's on the news? so in way I am saying why would anyone pay the money you suggest.

SupaNova2

Thanks for pointing that out. It does not have to be identical to Australia's which is similar to what we have now(which I wasn't aware of). St Kitts current system gets you a full passport within a few months without ever having to set foot in the country let alone reside in it. I imagine that kind of offer would attract quite a premium over the current 500k minimum.

mariaalice

Well if we were prepared to pimp ourselves It might work, but ask yourself why would anyone that wealthy need an Irish passport in a hurry and without wanting to set foot here. The fact that we would give passports in such circumstances would immediately negate the reason Irish passports are so well though of i.e we are a neutral European country that dose not sell our passports to the highest bidder.

SupaNova2

That is possible. But St Kitts who are by far the loosest when it comes to this, still rank above South Africa, Russia and the Vatican City in the Visa Restriction Index. A one time offer limited to 500 people with strict background checks, would be unlikely to see us penalized. Visa restrictions work a lot like tit for tat tariffs between countries, If Ireland restricts Russians traveling to Ireland tomorrow the Russians retaliate and do the same. So far St Kitts pimping has not hurt them.

As for the kind of person who wants a second passport, it is usually individuals in countries which are suffering from political instability, they want the possibility of a quick exit if s**t hits the fan, according to the article that sparked me to write this thread demand for a second passport is "way up". Wealthy people throughout the ME and China make up a lot of the customers.

SupaNova2

From the Reuters article:

"It's obvious to you why a Russian or a Lebanese, a South African or maybe a Chinese would need a second passport and residence," Kalin said. "But why would a person from a stable country want one?

"Until a few years ago, you enjoyed very wide and unhindered visa-free travel as a citizen of Denmark. Until September 2005, when a Danish newspaper published some cartoons. By early 2006, Danish embassies in Damascus, Beirut, Tehran were set on fire, and as a citizen of Denmark you found yourself as a target of extremists all over the world. In some countries, you couldn't even enter."

Kalin paused.

"That is, unless you had a second passport."

EXIT STRATEGY

Such instability is driving interest from the world's wealthiest, those involved in the programs say.

Major, Henley's CEO, says that during the past three years, Henley's citizenship and residence group more than doubled its staff, clientele, and earnings. He won't discuss the particulars but a Henley brochure says nine specialists now handle citizenship matters.

"Uncertainty is a big 'push' factor," Major says. "When North Korea shoots missiles, we get a lot of South Koreans. When there's chaos in Cairo, we get lots of Egyptians on the phone."

goose2005

Considering the enormous amount of capital held by Ireland's wealthiest, why are we constantly appealing for foreigners to invest? Is it because our native rentiers are too thick to create businesses themselves - I though they were "wealth creators" and "entreprenoooors" but obviously not

SupaNova2

goose2005 wrote: »

Considering the enormous amount of capital held by Ireland's wealthiest, why are we constantly appealing for foreigners to invest?

Why not appeal to foreigners and our own? If you have a plan to increase investment from our own wealthy I'm all ears.

johnnyskeleton

If we really want to attract high net worth individuals, we should have a third tax rate over say €1m per annum. So someone like bill gates will pay normal taxes up to €1m but then after that pay 0% or 1%.

That would could bring them here, provide a significant amount of tax eg €400k per high net worth individual and is unlikely to negatively impact the tax take because how many people have an income over €1m here anyway.

Plus, lets be honest, €400k pa is more than enough tax for one person to pay.

Similar reductions on DIRT and capital gains tax, say 10% over say €500k, 5% over €1m would also be attractive for them.

I doubt we would ever see such a thing come in so long as labour are in government, but if we want to attract and, more importantly, retain high income people to Ireland, this is the way to do it.

Denis o brien, bono, etc would probably never have become tax exiles if they didn't have to pay so much tax here in the first place.

chopper6

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

If we really want to attract high net worth individuals, we should have a third tax rate over say €1m per annum. So someone like bill gates will pay normal taxes up to €1m but then after that pay 0% or 1%.

That would could bring them here, provide a significant amount of tax eg €400k per high net worth individual and is unlikely to negatively impact the tax take because how many people have an income over €1m here anyway.

Plus, lets be honest, €400k pa is more than enough tax for one person to pay.

Similar reductions on DIRT and capital gains tax, say 10% over say €500k, 5% over €1m would also be attractive for them.

I doubt we would ever see such a thing come in so long as labour are in government, but if we want to attract and, more importantly, retain high income people to Ireland, this is the way to do it.

Denis o brien, bono, etc would probably never have become tax exiles if they didn't have to pay so much tax here in the first place.

So somebody earning say 40k will have to give up half thier wages but somebody on multimillion euro salaries will pay a pittance?

Thats a very fair and equitable system.

creedp

chopper6 wrote: »

So somebody earning say 40k will have to give up half thier wages but somebody on multimillion euro salaries will pay a pittance?

Thats a very fair and equitable system.

Don't worry your head about equity .. what's important is sustainability! It appears the primary criterion for a successful IT system is that very well-off people are not incentivised to pay their taxes abroad so we should only ask them to pay a sop amount in Ireland and at the other end of the spectrum low paid people are not asked to pay any additional taxes. Which of course meams that those in the middle make up the shortfall.

woodoo

We seem to be importing a lot of wood from outside Ireland and a lot of it from unsustainable sources such as rain forests. As Duncan Stewart says on RTE today there are thousands more jobs to be had in forestry here. We need to get moving on it.

johnnyskeleton

chopper6 wrote: »

So somebody earning say 40k will have to give up half thier wages but somebody on multimillion euro salaries will pay a pittance?

Thats a very fair and equitable system.

Well someone on 40k will pay about 8-10k and get a full range of state services and benefits such as education, health, police etc. Someone on 4m will pay 400k for the same services.

The person paying 400k is subsidizing he person paying 8-10k, if they both use the same service. Roughly 40 times the tax of the other perso

Your idea of fairness would require the latter person to pay almost 2m in tax, or 200 times the tax of the other person, for the same thing.

But of course this is all academic because your way of thinking has chased away all those high earners so they are simply no longer here to tax.

chopper6

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

But of course this is all academic because your way of thinking has chased away all those high earners so they are simply no longer here to tax.

What "high earners" would these be?

Seany Fitz?

Bono?

Sean Dunne?

This isnt the US...most of the big earners we had were connected with the property bubble...they didnt get taxed and now they're gone...good riddance to them as well.


the oppurtunities to earn 7 figure slaries in this country are almost non-existant...No,this isnt the US or even the Uk..it's a small provincial backwater rife with corruption,greed and stupidity and that is all we'll ever be.

maninasia

It could be a useful way to attract investment, the key would be channeling the money to productive investments and not in making property more expensive like in the UK or Australia.

So they could invest in infrastructure capital bond which would then help us get a subway into Dublin, upgrade the rail network , roll out faster broadband etc.

johnnyskeleton

chopper6 wrote: »

What "high earners" would these be?

Seany Fitz?

Bono?

Sean Dunne?

The examples I gave were Bono and Denis O brien, but more generally there are over 13,000 people who live in Ireland but are not tax resident. Presumably some of them work in ordinary cross border jobs, but a significant number would be high earners:

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/personal-finance/number-of-tax-exiles-rises-by-27-in-two-years-1.1499197

If even a thousand of them were incentivized to pay tax in Ireland and be fully tax resident here at say 500k a pop, that would be 500m pa or an increase in the tax take of nearly 5%.

Since this thread is about brining non irish investors into the fold, the potential gains are enormous.

Even if you forget your dogma for a minute, surely a chance to raise a large amount of funds by a relatively easy move is for the benefit of all of us?

I thoroughly believe in taxing the very rich and making sure they pay their fair share. It's just that beyond a certain point it ceases to be a fiar share anymore and they are asked to shoulder too much of the burden. A millionaire does not owe you your welfare and your free education and your free high quality health care etc.

This isnt the US...most of the big earners we had were connected with the property bubble...they didnt get taxed and now they're gone...good riddance to them as well.

Exactly, wouldn't it be better to have a system where they have to pay tax rather than giving them ways to avoid tax?

the oppurtunities to earn 7 figure slaries in this country are almost non-existant...No,this isnt the US or even the Uk..it's a small provincial backwater rife with corruption,greed and stupidity and that is all we'll ever be.

At that level we are not talking about salaries but about income tax. Most people earning that level have serious investment portfolios or run large companies, and as google and Microsoft are showing us, they are easily capable of running those businesses from here.

Muahahaha

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

If we really want to attract high net worth individuals, we should have a third tax rate over say €1m per annum. So someone like bill gates will pay normal taxes up to €1m but then after that pay 0% or 1%.

That would could bring them here, provide a significant amount of tax eg €400k per high net worth individual and is unlikely to negatively impact the tax take because how many people have an income over €1m here anyway.

Plus, lets be honest, €400k pa is more than enough tax for one person to pay.

Similar reductions on DIRT and capital gains tax, say 10% over say €500k, 5% over €1m would also be attractive for them.

I doubt we would ever see such a thing come in so long as labour are in government, but if we want to attract and, more importantly, retain high income people to Ireland, this is the way to do it.

Denis o brien, bono, etc would probably never have become tax exiles if they didn't have to pay so much tax here in the first place.

In fairness to him Michael O'Leary has never become a tax exile. So it seems a matter of personal choice, O'Leary might run his airline in a tight fisted manner but he has no problems not doing likewise with his personal finances and becoming a tax exile, instead he pays his way, unlike Bono, Denis O'Brien, etc.

johnnyskeleton

Muahahaha wrote: »

In fairness to him Michael O'Leary has never become a tax exile. So it seems a matter of personal choice, O'Leary might run his airline in a tight fisted manner but he has no problems not doing likewise with his personal finances and becoming a tax exile, instead he pays his way, unlike Bono, Denis O'Brien, etc.

I never said O'leary was a tax exile, but I agree it is great to see that some, at least, will stay in Ireland and pay tax. Couple of points however:

1. While he is happy to pay the current high rates, he has said if they go up any further he will leave:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/oleary-ill-quit-ireland-if-they-raise-income-tax-26763476.html

2. I would rather base taxation policy on an assumption that people won't be selfless and will always try to get the best deal. But as with everything it comes down to a simple equation - will the tax take increase, decrease or stay the same if we reduce tax at the upper end? If it will increase, then it has to be a no brainier.

3. Is it really fair that Michael O Leary pays as much tax in a year as many people will pay in a lifetime?

323

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

The examples I gave were Bono and Denis O brien, but more generally there are over 13,000 people who live in Ireland but are not tax resident. Presumably some of them work in ordinary cross border jobs, but a significant number would be high earners:

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/personal-finance/number-of-tax-exiles-rises-by-27-in-two-years-1.1499197

If even a thousand of them were incentivized to pay tax in Ireland and be fully tax resident here at say 500k a pop, that would be 500m pa or an increase in the tax take of nearly 5%.

Since this thread is about brining non irish investors into the fold, the potential gains are enormous.

Even if you forget your dogma for a minute, surely a chance to raise a large amount of funds by a relatively easy move is for the benefit of all of us?

I thoroughly believe in taxing the very rich and making sure they pay their fair share. It's just that beyond a certain point it ceases to be a fiar share anymore and they are asked to shoulder too much of the burden. A millionaire does not owe you your welfare and your free education and your free high quality health care etc.



Exactly, wouldn't it be better to have a system where they have to pay tax rather than giving them ways to avoid tax?



At that level we are not talking about salaries but about income tax. Most people earning that level have serious investment portfolios or run large companies, and as google and Microsoft are showing us, they are easily capable of running those businesses from here.

Thanks for the link, interesting

The ones in ordinary cross border jobs are paying tax in the UK.
However as to the article, amazed I actually agree with Noonan on something, in that also believe "a high proportion of those opting to become non-resident for tax purposes were doing so for non-tax reasons".
As personally know at least a dozen who are in this non resident classification, mostly technical /engineering types working at on/off rotation contracts in the asia, the middle east and Africa, I gave the contacts for the positions to half of them since the downturn. Rather than emigrate, in order that their kids can grow up in Ireland, the are working 7 months or more a year abroad with family's still in Ireland.

Though hardly millionaires, definitely above average earners, are they not already a benefit to the economy?
As unlike Denis O Brien, they make all of their earnings abroad and bring it back to Ireland, claiming nothing in benefits and spending in local economies. Try making them fully tax resident even though they earn nothing in Ireland, believe most just would pack up and emigrate.

Markcheese

mariaalice wrote: »

We could make Ireland a sort of Elysium ( any one see the film ) for the worlds wealthy, think about it we are surrounded by the sea so easy to keep the rif raf out and all the native Irish could be employed looking after our new billionaire inhabitants.

Isn't that the aim ??? (sort of) till robots take on the service industry roll anyway..

johnnyskeleton

323 wrote: »

Thanks for the link, interesting

The ones in ordinary cross border jobs are paying tax in the UK.
However as to the article, amazed I actually agree with Noonan on something, in that also believe "a high proportion of those opting to become non-resident for tax purposes were doing so for non-tax reasons".
As personally know at least a dozen who are in this non resident classification, mostly technical /engineering types working at on/off rotation contracts in the asia, the middle east and Africa, I gave the contacts for the positions to half of them since the downturn. Rather than emigrate, in order that their kids can grow up in Ireland, the are working 7 months or more a year abroad with family's still in Ireland.

Though hardly millionaires, definitely above average earners, are they not already a benefit to the economy?
As unlike Denis O Brien, they make all of their earnings abroad and bring it back to Ireland, claiming nothing in benefits and spending in local economies. Try making them fully tax resident even though they earn nothing in Ireland, believe most just would pack up and emigrate.

That's all fine but I'm not advocating that they be forced to become tax resident or that we change the rules on the number of days etc required. My point is that at the very upper end we should cap the amount of tax paid or have a third, much lower, tax rate above a certain point.

That is what, in my opinion, would help achieve the OPs goal of attracting high income / high net worth individuals here.