UK car certificate on Irish address

Andrew P

Hi,
I bought a car in UK and working in NI (4-5 days per week) but my current address is in Ireland.
I got seller to sign the V5 certificate and filled in my details with Irish address as new owner. Just before sending it to DVLA I contacted them and they said to keep V5 and use it when I VRT the car.

I know if I am working in NI and spending more that 185 days I can get temporary VRT exempt and drive UK reg car here in Ireland.

Could anyone advise on how to register this car on my name with Irish address?

Sorry If this been asked before, couldn't find the post.

Thank You,
Andrew

ardmacha

I know if I am working in NI and spending more that 185 days I can get temporary VRT exempt and drive UK reg car here in Ireland.

Not quite sure how you "know" this, if your normal residence is in the Republic, then you'll have to VRT the car. However, if you know how to do this then you'll have to get this done before proceeding.

Victor

Andrew P wrote: »

I know if I am working in NI and spending more that 185 days I can get temporary VRT exempt and drive UK reg car here in Ireland.

Your problem is that you aren't living in Northern Ireland and therefore you are a frontier worker and aren't entitled to this exemption. You would need to be out of the country for the whole day on each of those 185 days.

Short version, you are living in Ireland, you need to VRT it.

darragh o meara

ardmacha wrote: »

Not quite sure how you "know" this, if your normal residence is in the Republic, then you'll have to VRT the car. However, if you know how to do this then you'll have to get this done before proceeding.

From recollection the car must be registered in the north and its main place of residence must be in the north.

By having it down south you will be stopped eventually and the car can possibly be seized. I know people who work a lot in the North and none of them can do what your speaking of. Some of them have northern registered company cars which they are entitled to use here.

Finally the DVLA will not register the car to an Irish address as its outside their area. The same applies here too.

There are exemptions to vrt if you've lived outside the country for a certain period of time but you need to have owned the car for a good while in that country, prove you lived there and prove your moving home permanently and even then you can't sell the car for 1 year.

ardmacha

Short answer. If you live in the North then register it in the North. If you live in the Republic, then register it in the Republic, paying the VRT.

Irishbob

Well all,

I don't know too much on the subject but my mates mam had a French reg car and used to drive it all the time and never had hassle, but she had a address, well a house in France so she said they come and go, but they didn't or cudnt check into it.

My Scottish neighbour was doing the same with a English reg car, he had family there and used there address BUT our neighbours father is a customs officer and when visiting his son spotted it. Of course the son told him all about it and all of a sudden my Scottish neighbour got a knock on the door one day. I think he said he had to pay €1600 roughly on the spot or car was going to be taken straight away.

Snitches should of got stitches lol

CiniO

OP said that he spends more than 185 days in NI, so his normal residence might be there.

OP do you have an address in NI?

Andrew P

Thank you all for your replies.
Yes, I do live 4 days a week in NI but on companies premisses. I have house bought in Ireland and was hoping to register it here.
Looks like only way to register it in Ireland is to pay VRT.

Irishbob

Cud he use a buddies address in the north and say he's only in the republic with work. Maybe get a bill posted to the buddies house? So its proof?

Northern Monkey

As a frontier work the car needs to be registered in the country where your personal ties are. So if you work in NI, but own a house in the Republic you are considered to have personal ties in the Republic. To complicate it futher... if you have a bank account, address and social life (partner, club/gym memberships, bills in your name) in the north you could potentially benefit from it as then you could be considered as having personal ties there.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vrt/leaflets/temporary-exemption-foreign-registered.html

CiniO

Andrew P wrote: »

Thank you all for your replies.
Yes, I do live 4 days a week in NI but on companies premisses.

So you have accomodation on your company premisses. You can use this as your address I suppose...

Have you got any family (wife, children) living in ROI with you when you come back here for weekends?

CiniO

Northern Monkey wrote: »

As a frontier work the car needs to be registered in the country where your personal ties are. So if you work in NI, but own a house in the Republic you are considered to have personal ties in the Republic.

This doesn't sound right.
So if I work in ROI, but have a house in Poland, does that mean that I should have my car registered in Poland and I could drive it here in ROI ?

Northern Monkey

CiniO wrote: »

This doesn't sound right.
So if I work in ROI, but have a house in Poland, does that mean that I should have my car registered in Poland and I could drive it here in ROI ?

Providing you return there on a regular basis and the car doesn't exceed 1 year in the state.

Regular basis isn't defined, but I would have thought it would need to be at least monthly. If you drive the car to Poland and then drive it back the car won't have exceeded 1 year in the state.

Marcusm

CiniO wrote: »

This doesn't sound right.
So if I work in ROI, but have a house in Poland, does that mean that I should have my car registered in Poland and I could drive it here in ROI ?

CiniO

This exemption is from the registration requirements (which in turn mean VRT is not applicable) and is effectively an EU one. There is no exemption from VRT, it's an exemption from the requirement to reregister. Frontier workers generally cross the border each day - e.g. keithclancy on here - so I don't think it would work with Poland and Ireland.

I can't see how it applies to the OP unless he can establish (which he may be able to) that he is resident in NI. In which case he would not transfer the car to Irish plates but would leave them on GB plates (or transfer to NI) and have to deal with attention from Gardai/Customs as it arises. If the OP truly lives and works int he UK 4 days a week, it sounds as if he would have a case.

ardmacha

So if I work in ROI, but have a house in Poland, does that mean that I should have my car registered in Poland and I could drive it here in ROI ?

If for example you had a family in Poland and you visted there when possible then that would be your normal residence.

If the OP truly lives and works int he UK 4 days a week, it sounds as if he would have a case.

If the OP lives a few days a weerk in corporate accommodation and generally based himself in the Republic when not working, then he would not have a case, especially if he has lived in the ROI all along.

Marcusm

ardmacha wrote: »

If the OP lives a few days a weerk in corporate accommodation and generally based himself in the Republic when not working, then he would not have a case, especially if he has lived in the ROI all along.

I think he said he worked and slept there 4 days a week; that would be enough for the UK to regard him as a UK resident and to permit him to retain the UK registration. If he's importing it into RoI for 3 days a week, he would have an argument for temporary importation exemption on each occasion. It's true that there is a greater personal connection tie breaker but I think that is for him to assert positively if he were trying to use an Irish registered car. If he resides in the UK for more than 185 days per annum, he satisfies the requirements to maintain a UK registered car.

All that being said, I think he was naive not to sort this out before buying the car.

ardmacha

Put it this way, a person from NI who worked in the ROI and stayed overnight during the week would have no problem retaining a NI car as his home is in NI, but is just a glorified commuter. The OP is in the opposite situation.

bmstuff

It is down to where you pay income taxes, get child benefit etc.
If in RoI then you are resident in Roi then you need to register the car in Roi.

Marcusm

ardmacha wrote: »

Put it this way, a person from NI who worked in the ROI and stayed overnight during the week would have no problem retaining a NI car as his home is in NI, but is just a glorified commuter. The OP is in the opposite situation.

The distinction between our positions, I believe, is that that you feel there is a single answer, ie that the laws across the jursdictions are such that there is only a single outcome. I believe that this is not the case. Broadly, in both jurtisdictions, a person who is resident there (ie more than 185 days) is precluded from driving a car registered in another jurisdiction (whether it is the other or even a third juridiction). This residence definition is not absolute in that it is flexed to allow someone to assert close personal ties to the jurisdiction in which he spends less than 185 days if that is appropriate - the important point is that this is something which is dependent on him not having personal ties in NI. If he has both work and personal ties to NI, life is more flexible for him.

Accordingly, if geneuinely he fulfils the 185 days in the UK, he can keep a UK registered car and travel regularly to Ireland with that car PROVIDED he has "personal ties" in NI (ie friendships, family etc). It would be unusuak for someone to be unable to assert any personal ties to the place where he spends 4 night s a week. The law does not require one to establish which are the closer personal ties, the balance will lie with NI if he has both work and personal ties there.

On the other hand, if the OP had an Irish registered car, it might be that he forms the view that he only had Irish personal ties and that his social life was really there and he was only in NI to earn money and work.

Although it should not be described as a free choice, there is an element in the choice ont he part of the OP, if the facts are as he has stated.

What he is not able to do, however, is to reregister a UK car in Ireland free of VRT.

Marcusm

bmstuff wrote: »

It is down to where you pay income taxes, get child benefit etc.
If in RoI then you are resident in Roi then you need to register the car in Roi.

With the greatest respect, the first part of your statement is not true. A resident of RoI who crosses the border 5 days per week to work in NI is (with very limited exceptions) taxable in the UK on the employment income earned in NI. That would not permit him/her to drive a UK registered car.

IN relation to the second part, that is true but the point is that he has to decide where he is resident which is not always the easiest determination - he is 4 nights per week sleeping in NI (as well as working 5 days there).

CiniO

What about "company vehicle" exemption.

Assume for the moment that OP is resident in ROI. He has house here, possibly personal ties and he comes back here regularly, while he only goes to NI to work. So he is resident in ROI.

But there is an exception, where person resident in ROI, can drive foreign registered vehicle in ROI for private purposes, if that's company vehicle provided by his employer for which he works abroad.
In that case OP could apply for company vehicle which would be NI registered, and he would be legally able to drive it in ROI.

Marcusm

CiniO wrote: »

What about "company vehicle" exemption.

Assume for the moment that OP is resident in ROI. He has house here, possibly personal ties and he comes back here regularly, while he only goes to NI to work. So he is resident in ROI.

But there is an exception, where person resident in ROI, can drive foreign registered vehicle in ROI for private purposes, if that's company vehicle provided by his employer for which he works abroad.
In that case OP could apply for company vehicle which would be NI registered, and he would be legally able to drive it in ROI.

I agree with this but he already has the car so assumed that there was no point in suggesting that as an option.

stealthyspeeder

This is a topic I am currently engaged with the revenue about. However, just to add some factual clarity to some of the posts

CiniO wrote: »

This doesn't sound right.
So if I work in ROI, but have a house in Poland, does that mean that I should have my car registered in Poland and I could drive it here in ROI ?

If you have personal ties (immediate family ties) in Poland (and no immediate family ties in Ireland), and that you return there "regularly" (not necessarily in the car), the correct country for you to register your car is Poland.

Marcusm wrote: »

I think he said he worked and slept there 4 days a week; that would be enough for the UK to regard him as a UK resident and to permit him to retain the UK registration. If he's importing it into RoI for 3 days a week, he would have an argument for temporary importation exemption on each occasion. It's true that there is a greater personal connection tie breaker but I think that is for him to assert positively if he were trying to use an Irish registered car. If he resides in the UK for more than 185 days per annum, he satisfies the requirements to maintain a UK registered car.

All that being said, I think he was naive not to sort this out before buying the car.

This is a common misconception, but completely incorrect.

The rules defining residence for the purposes of vehicle registration are completely separate to the rules defining residence for other taxes (such as Income tax, where your 185 day a year example would apply)

If your interested, its defined here in an EU directive. The Irish Law (section 135 finance act incorporates this)

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:31983L0182:en:HTML

bmstuff wrote: »

It is down to where you pay income taxes, get child benefit etc.
If in RoI then you are resident in Roi then you need to register the car in Roi.

As per above, that statement is completely incorrect.

Marcusm wrote: »

The distinction between our positions, I believe, is that that you feel there is a single answer, ie that the laws across the jursdictions are such that there is only a single outcome.

There is - Council Directive 83/182/EEC

Marcusm wrote: »

I believe that this is not the case.

You are wrong. This is the case.

Marcusm wrote: »

Broadly, in both jurtisdictions, a person who is resident there (ie more than 185 days) is precluded from driving a car registered in another jurisdiction (whether it is the other or even a third juridiction).

Only when personal ties and occupational ties are in the same state (or when there are no occupational ties only personal ties) does the 185/365 day criteria apply.

When occupational ties are in a different state to personal ties, the country of personal ties is taken as state for car registration. (note there is no 185/365 day restriction on this, the restriction is that that there are "regular" returns to the country of personal ties


http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1993/en/si/0060.html

In these Regulations "normal residence" means the place where a person usually lives, that is to say, where he lives for at least 185 days in each year, because of personal and occupational ties, or, in the case of a person with no occupational ties, because of personal ties.
However, the normal residence of a person whose occupational ties are in a different place from his personal ties and who consequently lives in turn in different places situated in 2 or more countries shall be regarded as being the place of this personal ties:
Provided that such person returns to the place of his personal ties regularly

Marcusm wrote: »

Accordingly, if geneuinely he fulfils the 185 days in the UK, he can keep a UK registered car and travel regularly to Ireland with that car PROVIDED he has "personal ties" in NI (ie friendships, family etc). It would be unusuak for someone to be unable to assert any personal ties to the place where he spends 4 night s a week. The law does not require one to establish which are the closer personal ties, the balance will lie with NI if he has both work and personal ties there.

On the other hand, if the OP had an Irish registered car, it might be that he forms the view that he only had Irish personal ties and that his social life was really there and he was only in NI to earn money and work.

Although it should not be described as a free choice, there is an element in the choice ont he part of the OP, if the facts are as he has stated.

It all depends on the OPs personal ties.

From the Revenues VRT2 leaflet

Personal ties means family ties (e.g. spouse/children or, if unmarried, parents/relatives) or social ties.

If the revenue can "PROVE" the OP has personal ties in the ROI, you can bet your ass he will NOT be entitled to the exemption in the Revenues view. I would wish the OP good luck battling the Revenue in that case!

ardmacha

Could someone put the previous post in a sticky, as this issue arises frequently and half-baked nonsense is frequently asserted by people who know little about the subject, as distinct from the previous poster.

Marcusm

stealthyspeeder wrote: »

This is a topic I am currently engaged with the revenue about. However, just to add some factual clarity to some of the posts



If you have personal ties (immediate family ties) in Poland (and no immediate family ties in Ireland), and that you return there "regularly" (not necessarily in the car), the correct country for you to register your car is Poland.



This is a common misconception, but completely incorrect.

The rules defining residence for the purposes of vehicle registration are completely separate to the rules defining residence for other taxes (such as Income tax, where your 185 day a year example would apply)

If your interested, its defined here in an EU directive. The Irish Law (section 135 finance act incorporates this)

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:31983L0182:en:HTML




As per above, that statement is completely incorrect.



There is - Council Directive 83/182/EEC



You are wrong. This is the case.



Only when personal ties and occupational ties are in the same state (or when there are no occupational ties only personal ties) does the 185/365 day criteria apply.

When occupational ties are in a different state to personal ties, the country of personal ties is taken as state for car registration. (note there is no 185/365 day restriction on this, the restriction is that that there are "regular" returns to the country of personal ties


http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1993/en/si/0060.html







It all depends on the OPs personal ties.

From the Revenues VRT2 leaflet


If the revenue can "PROVE" the OP has personal ties in the ROI, you can bet your ass he will NOT be entitled to the exemption in the Revenues view. I would wish the OP good luck battling the Revenue in that case!

The only point with which I agree with you is that it all turns on the OP's personal ties. However, it would be highly unusual for someone with a full time job sleeping overnight for 4 nights a week in one place not to be able to ASSERT that he has some personal ties there - some social friends etc.

I too have some soignificant experience of construing revenue law and arguing such points across different tax jurisdcitions (24 years) which is why I have suggested that there is some flexibility for the OP depending on his particular circumstances.

It is important to note that there is a not a single law on this matter; the EC directive sets out the outline of laws which the national governments must incorporate into their domestic legislation in order to ensure that there are no undue limitations to the freedom of movement of citizens across the EU to exercise treaty rights, including in this case the right to exercise employment in a different jurisdiction from that of their nationality.

As a consequence of the incorproation of the principles of the directive into domestic legislation leads to differences (often referred to as arbitrage opportunities) between the jurisdictions. Where the national government has incorporated the directive on an overly restrictive basis, the citizen can seek to obtain the benefit of the broader interpretation through argument with the competent authority or the courts. Where an overly generous version has been included, this can be enforced against the government by the citizen - the government's remedy being to amend the legislation prospectively.

By all means, sticky the prior posts but to assume that they represent gospel is something which I would not, if I were the author, be willing to assert. The true position is that the facts need to ascertained and the law applied to them, where flexibility exists (such as the potential to assert personal ties in both jurisdictions), the benefit should be available to the taxpayer. After all the long standing principle that the taxpayer need not allow the Revenue stick an overly large shovel into his stores remains good law in Ireland.

stealthyspeeder

I wouldn't want that post stickied, was just a quick response to some misleading/inaccurate posts that had accumulated in this thread. My case is still with the Revenue, and I will be doing a comprehensive writeup of it when it is finished.

Personal ties could potentially be defined differently by different member states within the EU,so yes there is a small potential arbitrage opportunity (although extremely limited).

However this is Ireland, the Irish Revenue have defined personal ties as quoted in my previous post. Where there is overlap between counties of personal ties, you can be certain the Revenue will take the position that any Irish personal ties = Personal ties are in Ireland.

There are various vehicle registration laws in various EU countries. All these domestic laws can be appealed/brought to the domestic high court. All domestic high court decisions can be appealed/brought before the EU court. The previously quoted EU directive is what the EU court will use. So overall, it is one rule for all (but in practice the wording of the domestic law takes precedence).