Time to seek wage increases.

Saab Ed

Must be getting close to a turn in our expectations on wages. Years of tax increases, real wage cuts and social engineering by the ruling classes to deplete our self worth must he close behind.

Contrast the above with the recent consolidation by employers as well as oppotune profiteering in some cases, real world increases in living costs, massive increases in energy costs and statistics Euro wide and globally suggesting real sustainable growth, surely its time to change our expectations on wages. Surely its time to give up being beaten with the unemployment stick. If everyone works for very little then we're all worth alot less. Those who emigrated can testify to this.

Anyway, I look forward to your responses.

genericguy

Indubitably old bean.

redtapestyl

Hard to get a pay rise when you don't have a job!

MadsL

Do you think those currently in employment are underpaid OP?

L1011

Been time to seek, and generally get, them in proper IT jobs (e.g. not customer support roles) for at least 18 months now.

kneemos

If everyone worked for a tenner a week you could buy a house for two grand.Or less.

The Backwards Man

I couldn't possibly ask my boss for a rise, he's paying his workers too much as it is.

MadsL

Have you considered joining a GAA club OP? I hear that's the way to get a raise.

Sir Humphrey Appleby

Saab Ed wrote: »

Must be getting close to a turn in our expectations on wages. Years of tax increases, real wage cuts and social engineering by the ruling classes to deplete our self worth must he close behind.

Contrast the above with the recent consolidation by employers as well as oppotune profiteering in some cases, real world increases in living costs, massive increases in energy costs and statistics Euro wide and globally suggesting real sustainable growth, surely its time to change our expectations on wages. Surely its time to give up being beaten with the unemployment stick. If everyone works for very little then we're all worth alot less. Those who emigrated can testify to this.

Anyway, I look forward to your responses.

What rubbish!
Jesus! most people outside of the public sector/Semi-state sector are lucky to have work at all.
As for employers consolidating, let me tell you as an employer I ain't consolidating, I'm trying hard to stay afloat in a climate that is becoming harder and harder.

Almaviva

Nah. Still 14% unemployed. Plus many on short time, reduced hours etc.
Wages still too high and need to erode for another 5 or 6 years get back to what we are really worth and have a sustainably competitive labour market and economy.
Increases in living costs are by the way and just too bad.

Clandestine

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_wage
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_country

Ireland already has the second highest average wage and one of the highest minimum wages in the world.

MadsL

Local Purchasing Power in Dublin is 15.32% higher than in London.

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=Ireland&city1=London&city2=Dublin

So that would be a no.

Saab Ed

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

What rubbish!
Jesus! most people outside of the public sector/Semi-state sector are lucky to have work at all.
As for employers consolidating, let me tell you as an employer I ain't consolidating, I'm trying hard to stay afloat in a climate that is becoming harder and harder.

Its becoming harder to survive because the economy is still in a false state of contraction, very few yet some are still gaining in wealth, ordinary people have no spare money. More disposable income equals increased spending power equals growth equals easier conditions to survive for everybody. Neither employers or employee's can instigate this change in mindset, I'll give you that. Its got to he policy. Growth will wipe out our dept faster, contraction in wages actually prolongs the problem, in effect increasing the nation's debt.

Czarcasm

MYOB wrote: »

Been time to seek, and generally get, them in proper IT jobs (e.g. not customer support roles) for at least 18 months now.

I'd like to be helpful here if I can, but I'm not sure what you're trying to say tbh.

Are you trying to get a job in IT for the last 18 months now or are you saying that other people have been trying to get better jobs in IT for the last 18 months?

To answer the OP - I think the minimum wage is far too high as it is, and some people are still living under the assumption that they should be entitled to what they feel they're worth.

Almaviva

Clandestine wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_wage
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_country

Ireland already has the second highest average wage and one of the highest minimum wages in the world.

Thanks. It must be recognised however, the extent to which the first figures are skewed by the wages of Dublin bus drivers.

Saab Ed

MadsL wrote: »

Local Purchasing Power in Dublin is 15.32% higher than in London.

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=Ireland&city1=London&city2=Dublin

So that would be a no.

Who does that benefit? The people of London! Don't think so but its a great example of what I'm trying to prove. A city filthy rich (minority getting richer during recession) yet the average Joe is getting poorer. That can't be right! You're not suggesting thy we should be closer in statistics to our cockney cousins are you?

Paulzx

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

What rubbish!
Jesus! most people outside of the public sector/Semi-state sector are lucky to have work at all.
.

So the 1.5million private sector workers are all lucky to have a job.

They don't bring anything to the table that renders their employment absolutely necessary.......they're just lucky.

Would you feck off!!

shopaholic01

Paulzx wrote: »

So the 1.5million private sector workers are all lucky to have a job.

They don't bring anything to the table that renders their employment absolutely necessary.......they're just lucky.

Would you feck off!!

I think he meant that employment is not permanent in the private sector and that unemployment is rising. A lot of people are unable to find work.

It's not implying that you're incompetant.

Paulzx

shopaholic01 wrote: »

It's not implying that you're incompetant.

Where did me being incompetent come from? Jaysus, you must know me:)

shopaholic01

Paulzx wrote: »

Where did me being incompetent come from? Jaysus, you must know me:)

Well then, you are lucky.

MadsL

Saab Ed wrote: »

Who does that benefit? The people of London! Don't think so but its a great example of what I'm trying to prove. A city filthy rich (minority getting richer during recession) yet the average Joe is getting poorer. That can't be right! You're not suggesting thy we should be closer in statistics to our cockney cousins are you?

Who do you suppose Ireland is competing against for inward investment. Which countries wage rates are more competive?

I'm not sure you understand the basic economics of what you are asking for, namely that Ireland make itself less competitive and pay itself more.

Czarcasm

Saab Ed wrote: »

Who does that benefit? The people of London! Don't think so but its a great example of what I'm trying to prove. A city filthy rich (minority getting richer during recession) yet the average Joe is getting poorer. That can't be right! You're not suggesting thy we should be closer in statistics to our cockney cousins are you?

I'd love to meet this "average Joe" guy people keep referring to, and the "ordinary people" in his "community".

There was no mention of them during the "Celtic Tiger" years, but since the arse fell out of the property market, he seems to have become quite famous, as have these ordinary people in their community.

MadsL

I think average Joe means the OP.

What sector do you work in OP that is doing so well that a raise is in order?

Saab Ed

MadsL wrote: »

I think average Joe means the OP.

What sector do you work in OP that is doing so well that a raise is in order?

What I do is irrelevant. Averge Joe is somewhere in the 20-40 grand mark. Now decreasing his/her wages just makes them poorer while having the simultaneous effect of prolonging or burgeoning national debt. If this wealth grab and attitude continues we're gonna be left with nothing but a very elite, wealthy and controlling class that will be able to abuse that power way beyond financial wealth.

Czarcasm

Saab Ed wrote: »

What I do is irrelevant. Averge Joe is somewhere in the 20-40 grand mark. Now decreasing his/her wages just makes them poorer while having the simultaneous effect of prolonging or burgeoning national debt. If this wealth grab and attitude continues we're gonna be left with nothing but a very elite, wealthy and controlling class that will be able to abuse that power way beyond financial wealth.

Average Joe is doing very well for himself then really, because to be an average Joe, he has to be earning less than some people (quite clearly OP this is your beef), but what about the people then earning less than average Joe? Or is it just that Average Joe isn't earning as much as Wealthy Joe?

If Average Joe's work ethic is, y'know, average, then why should Average Joe expect to be paid the same as Wealthy Joe who has worked harder than Average Joe to become Wealthy Joe?

MadsL

Saab Ed wrote: »

What I do is irrelevant. Averge Joe is somewhere in the 20-40 grand mark. Now decreasing his/her wages just makes them poorer while having the simultaneous effect of prolonging or burgeoning national debt. If this wealth grab and attitude continues we're gonna be left with nothing but a very elite, wealthy and controlling class that will be able to abuse that power way beyond financial wealth.

Increasing everyones wages makes goods and services inflate, and makes Ireland less competitive, which means fewer jobs and more emigration. Eventually, you will be left with a country with no-one in it but the securely paid and massively taxed.

Deflating everyone's wage (including the public sector) means that you can benchmark against Europe and compete for jobs, which leads to wealth and prosperity, a growth in population and a more spread tax base giving people more disposable income which stimulates the economy further.

Trying to raise wage in a economic downturn is a policy for deep depression. Look at union pressures on wages in the UK in the 70s.

the groutch

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

What rubbish!
Jesus! most people outside of the public sector/Semi-state sector are lucky to have work at all.

that attitude annoys me so much, I have my job because I work bloody hard, no luck about it.

dxhound2005

Saab Ed wrote: »

Its becoming harder to survive because the economy is still in a false state of contraction, very few yet some are still gaining in wealth, ordinary people have no spare money. More disposable income equals increased spending power equals growth equals easier conditions to survive for everybody. Neither employers or employee's can instigate this change in mindset, I'll give you that. Its got to he policy. Growth will wipe out our dept faster, contraction in wages actually prolongs the problem, in effect increasing the nation's debt.

If ordinary people have no spare money who spent €6.3 billion on alcohol last year?

Despite the state of the country’s finances, there was €6.3 billion spent on alcohol in 2012, up 1.2 per cent on 2011.

Almaviva

the groutch wrote: »

that attitude annoys me so much, I have my job because I work bloody hard, no luck about it.

You are lucky to have to opportunity to work bloody hard.

SCOOP 64

Czarcasm wrote: »

I'd like to be helpful here if I can, but I'm not sure what you're trying to say tbh.

Are you trying to get a job in IT for the last 18 months now or are you saying that other people have been trying to get better jobs in IT for the last 18 months?

To answer the OP - I think the minimum wage is far too high as it is, and some people are still living under the assumption that they should be entitled to what they feel they're worth.

Try surviving on minimum wage.

Saab Ed

dxhound2005 wrote: »

If ordinary people have no spare money who spent €6.3 billion on alcohol last year?

Despite the state of the country’s finances, there was €6.3 billion spent on alcohol in 2012, up 1.2 per cent on 2011.

Really! I'm trying to have a debate about whether or not wage increases are justifiable and you decide on an impromptu audition for the Sunday World. Come on, What next, who spent all the money on hash, coke.

Increased substance abuse though for what its worth usually goes hand in hand with increased poverty so actually you might just be proving my point inadvertently.

MadsL

Saab Ed wrote: »

Really! I'm trying to have a debate about whether or not wage increases are justifiable and you decide on an impromptu audition for the Sunday World. Come on, What next, who spent all the money on hash, coke.

Increased substance abuse though for what its worth usually goes hand in hand with increased poverty so actually you might just be proving my point inadvertently.

He has a point, alcohol consumption is a good indicator of levels of disposable income.

Czarcasm

SCOOP 64 wrote: »

Try surviving on minimum wage.

I've supported two people on a lot less than the minimum wage, and we weren't just surviving either, but in fact had quite a good living on my wages which I was earning long before minimum wage legislation was ever in place.

I'm not the exception either as there are plenty of people I know who are supporting families on one minimum wage income. How do they do it? They make sacrifices and do without so they can live within their means.

Almaviva

MadsL wrote: »

He has a point, alcohol consumption is a good indicator of levels of disposable income.

And coke. Its use skyrocketed (research thesis idea for anyone who wants to correlate property prices and coke use 2002-2007 - you're welcome) during the height of the boom (apparently...).

ChippingSodbury

Saab Ed wrote: »

Must be getting close to a turn in our expectations on wages. Years of tax increases, real wage cuts and social engineering by the ruling classes to deplete our self worth must he close behind.

Contrast the above with the recent consolidation by employers as well as oppotune profiteering in some cases, real world increases in living costs, massive increases in energy costs and statistics Euro wide and globally suggesting real sustainable growth, surely its time to change our expectations on wages. Surely its time to give up being beaten with the unemployment stick. If everyone works for very little then we're all worth alot less. Those who emigrated can testify to this.

Anyway, I look forward to your responses.

So, does this bit not apply to employers?? While they are struggling to sell to a smaller market, lots of their direct/ indirect cost have gone up and now you want labour costs to increase also?

In an ideal world, it would be great if we had higher wages in Ireland but the reality is that jobs are lost to countries where labour costs are cheaper: might not be right or just but that's what happens.

dxhound2005

Saab Ed wrote: »

Really! I'm trying to have a debate about whether or not wage increases are justifiable and you decide on an impromptu audition for the Sunday World. Come on, What next, who spent all the money on hash, coke.

Increased substance abuse though for what its worth usually goes hand in hand with increased poverty so actually you might just be proving my point inadvertently.

You said ordinary people have no spare money and I asked a valid question as to who spent €6.3 billion on drink in a year if it wasn't ordinary people. I don't see an answer there. You obviously think the fact, as you see it, that ordinary people have no spare money is relevant to the debate about wages since you raised it yourself. I was merely following the point up with a question.

Here are some more figures.

Total on deposit with NTMA (Post Office products) end 2012 €16.257 billion. Total on deposit in savings accounts in the associated banks approx €150 billion. I didn't look up the credit unions figures.

Approx one million households are paying for TV in the Saorview era. Average value of food thrown away per household €700 per year. Amount spent on foreign holidays €3.8 billion (2011).

Who is spending, saving, wasting all this money? What is your definition of ordinary people?

Sleepy

Saab Ed wrote: »

More disposable income equals increased spending power equals growth equals easier conditions to survive for everybody. Neither employers or employee's can instigate this change in mindset, I'll give you that. Its got to he policy. Growth will wipe out our dept faster, contraction in wages actually prolongs the problem, in effect increasing the nation's debt.

This might work in an economy that produces most of the goods it consumes, in Ireland, however, we import an awful lot of the goods that people buy when they have more disposable income: our cars (as you well know) come mainly from Germany, Japan, the UK etc.; the big screen TV's we went so mad for during the boom are made in Asia; the smart phones, iPads etc. are designed in the States and built in Asia; and so on and so forth. This causes economic growth alright: but for the countries we send the money to.

We need to create the wealth before it can be dispersed as wage increases. IMO, the time to do this is when we see near full employment, not when we still have 15% - 20% of the adult population out of work.

Yes, there are some areas where people are getting raises but that's a reflection of the reality that any country has thousands of small job markets rather than one single market. Not everyone can do every job and even if they had the potential to be able to a job, they might not have the necessary experience to back that up.

In the interest of being honest, I got a small raise myself this year. It was one, however, that I was supposed to have gotten over 2 years ago but the company simply wasn't making enough profit to give me that raise until this year (it's a very small company so I know that wasn't just a line I was being fed). Getting the business to make money again involved cut-backs, the owners taking lower salaries and the rest of us accepting that our promised raises weren't able to happen.

Not trying to turn this into a PS bashing thread but we're not seeing the same logic applied in that sector. The unions being so strong prevents the dead-weight from being shed (and we all know cases where it exists), that the really senior staff aren't taking significant paycuts and that increments which should have been frozen 4/5 years ago are still being granted. All this inefficiency leads to poorer services than should be possible for the amount of our public money that's being spent and the productive staff not getting the raises they may deserve.

So, to summarise: the public sector is still too inefficient to be able to afford payrises and the private sector, which has some efficient companies exist that can afford pay raises also has lots of companies operating in highly competitive areas where they can't generate sufficient profits and, in truth, is too small to generate sufficient demand for labour to create an increase in the price for it's supply (in fact, with such high unemployment, we're seeing the opposite in most sections of the private sector).

NuckingFacker

I'll give you a raise OP - go stand on a concrete block, and wave this P45. It's hard enough to keep wages at the level they are at, raises are not on the agenda at the moment. You do realise things are quite tough out there at the mo?

KyussBishop

Austerity means destroying peoples dispensable income; you're not getting wage increases, because the entire point of austerity is to suppress your spending power, through 'internal devaluation'.
This is to make us more 'competitive' through destroying demand in our domestic economy with wage cuts, which is supposed to let us export more cheap goods.

Problem is, nobody wants to fúcking import more goods, because most countries out there are all trying to export more, all at once (which will never work, because for every increase in exports, there must be an equal increase in imports somewhere else - with everybody trying to export more, there are no gains to be had); with the convenient result being, the worldwide suppression of wages, employment and general labour power.

This also has the effect, of making private debts greater as a proportion of income, making the problem of private debt more unsustainable.


No matter what way you spin this whole problem, it's an issue of not enough money in the private economy, and too much private debt; so you need to increase the amount of money in the economy without adding to private debt, and to reduce the amount of private debt.

The only hope of this is through policy changes within Europe, that might (though probably will not) come about after the German elections; if we don't get that we're fúcked for a decade or more still, as long as our economic policies (the important parts of which are currently decided within the EU) are lead by politicians that desire austerity.

It's not an inevitability (there are plenty of alternative policies available), it's a choice that has been made by politicians within Europe and elsewhere; people who are largely removed from the effects of their own policies, and many of which are quite cozy with the financial/business powers benefiting from the crisis.

Saab Ed

The general consensus here seems to be that wages should further decrease to improve our competitiveness. I feel this is a confusion of how competitive the ordinary worker is with how competitive the state is.

The ordinary worker is competitive at the moment. Forget the extremes here, minimum wage etc. This kind of tattle only fuels an us against them style argument. The state itself is hindering any growth due its debt burden, its tax regime and its stealth charges being introduced. We're all on the same side here , its not employer versus employee, public v private sector, unemployment v employed. Its really is us versus the state, its cossy snuggle with bankers, their ability to call the shots and ultimately our standard of living suffering.

Wage increases cause inflation yes, but they also help pay of our debt quicker and erode any advantage the financial classes have by garnering great amounts of real wealth in these times. Another words the more everybody earns, the less well off the bankers become and the less power they ultimately have.

Don't be fooled people. Financial stats should only apply to financial people. Wage increase here now would actually benefit everybody so long as we don't fall back into our boom time ways of over borrowing.

Czarcasm

Saab Ed wrote: »

The general consensus here seems to be that wages should further decrease to improve our competitiveness. I feel this is a confusion of how competitive the ordinary worker is with how competitive the state is.

The ordinary worker is competitive at the moment. Forget the extremes here, minimum wage etc. This kind of tattle only fuels an us against them style argument. The state itself is hindering any growth due its debt burden, its tax regime and its stealth charges being introduced. We're all on the same side here , its not employer versus employee, public v private sector, unemployment v employed. Its really is us versus the state, its cossy snuggle with bankers, their ability to call the shots and ultimately our standard of living suffering.

I don't mean to be obtuse, but could you define for me an ordinary worker? I know earlier you defined an average joe as a person earning between €20 and €40k pa (a massive €20k difference in pay scale there but I let it slide to see where the discussion would go), but this ordinary worker thing has me completely thrown? Are we talking a person working in the manufacturing sector, services, financial, public or private?

And who is this "us" versus "the state"? That would be pitting us against ourselves surely?

Ultimately the only people responsible for their standard of living are those people themselves. These "bankers" had no hand in our standard of living, it was people's own "keeping up with the jones'" and wanting to "have it all" that they found themselves in situations where they are unable to pay back their debts.

Wage increases cause inflation yes, but they also help pay of our debt quicker and erode any advantage the financial classes have by garnering great amounts of real wealth in these times. Another words the more everybody earns, the less well off the bankers become and the less power they ultimately have.

Where is this money going to come from? Wealthy Joe isn't going to just give it away. The financial classes (there's a new class I'd never heard of before, but I'm going to assume you mean wealthy upper class) were smart about their money and earned it. Now if average joe gets paid more, he too becomes wealthy joe, but hasn't earned it, and the divide between average joe and not a pot to piss in joe gets even wider.

So, with this monopoly money coming out of nowhere, you're going to pay average joe more money for the same level of work, while not a pot to piss in joe will stay on the same level for the same work.... Ohhh I'm sensing a problem with your economic theory already!

Don't be fooled people. Financial stats should only apply to financial people. Wage increase here now would actually benefit everybody so long as we don't fall back into our boom time ways of over borrowing.

Isn't it because people have a piss poor grasp of financial stats and figures that Ireland finds itself in the position it's in now? You can be absolutely guaranteed if Germany were to throw a bucket of money at Ireland in the morning, the first thing we'd do is look for ways to piss it down the drain. At the moment we're like a child that's had it's pocket money taken away, and people such as yourself aren't happy about it.

There's an easy solution- Instead of throwing a tantrum, show some of that fantastic community spirit and go out and do some voluntary work in your community, forget about wanting more money, just do it for the love of working, and trust me the money will come as a secondary consequence.


ps. Love the sig btw!

L1011

Czarcasm wrote: »

I'd like to be helpful here if I can, but I'm not sure what you're trying to say tbh.

Are you trying to get a job in IT for the last 18 months now or are you saying that other people have been trying to get better jobs in IT for the last 18 months?

To answer the OP - I think the minimum wage is far too high as it is, and some people are still living under the assumption that they should be entitled to what they feel they're worth.

I'm saying that anywhere that's still using "oh, the recession..." as an excuse for no payrises in the IT sector is having it on. Going in with a set of the company audited accounts after being told "we've no money" got me the payrise I'd asked for fairly quickly.

Almaviva

KyussBishop wrote: »

Austerity means destroying peoples dispensable income

Austerity means never having to say you're sorry.
Ask Biffo.