Western Christian attitudes to non-Western Christians.

SoulandForm

I was talking on messenger to an Iraqi friend last night (she no longer lives in Iraq) and the topic came up as we were discussing the situation in Syria. She said that American Christians dont care about the actual Gospel, instead they care about Israel, money and power in that order. On this forum I have seen an Irish person (an RC from I believe the south and not therefore the wilder type of Orange person) give support to Israel despite its massive ethnic cleansing of Palestinian Christians and despite the fact that it has shown itself actually more anti-Christian than anti-Islam (as far as I can see Islam is anyway just a more universalist and ethical form of Judaism). But its not just that a lot of Western Christians have it in for middle eastern Christians. I have also seen and heard mockery and opposition too eastern European and African Christians both on this forum and after Church. What exactly is going on here? Why this (growing?) divide?

Peregrinus

Actually, there’s a long history of misunderstanding, mistrust and even outright conflict between Eastern and Western Christianity; just Google the Fourth Crusade. Or read up about some of the difficulties experienced by Eastern Christians migrating into Western societies in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries.

But there’s an even bigger misconception embedded in your post. If somebody is a Christian (or a Muslim, or an atheist, or . . .) that tells you about their religious position, but it doesn’t necessarily tell you anything about their political position. An American or Irish Christian’s attitude to Israel is not simply a matter of identifying with Palestinian Christians (or, worse, against Palestinian Muslims) and working from there to an alignment with or against Israel, according to Israel’s treatment of Christians and/or Muslims. Obviously, somebody’s views on the Israel/Palestinian conflict might be formed by their opinions about nationalism, about colonialism, about antisemitism, about democracy, about lots of things where views and values don’t necessarily line up neatly with denominational identification.

And, even if someone’s political stance is directly shaped by their religious convictions, that still doesn’t mean automatically lining up with co-religionists. For example, a devout Christian might well form his opinions on, say, US intervention in Iraq in 2003, or possible intervention in Syria in 2013, by a consideration and application of just war theology, in which the religious opinions and identifications of the parties to the conflict are completely irrelevant.

Indeed, you could argue strongly that a Christian who automatically lines up with Christians everywhere, in every conflict, is not motivated by Christianity at all, but by tribalism, “Christian” just being the name of his tribe.

SoulandForm

Peregrinus wrote: »

Indeed, you could argue strongly that a Christian who automatically lines up with Christians everywhere, in every conflict, is not motivated by Christianity at all, but by tribalism, “Christian” just being the name of his tribe.

In every conflict regardless lining with other Christians might be "tribalism" in a negative way however if Christians form one Body in Christ showing a shocking lack of empathy for fellow Christians does suggest something fundamentally wrong.

Peregrinus wrote: »

And, even if someone’s political stance is directly shaped by their religious convictions, that still doesn’t mean automatically lining up with co-religionists. For example, a devout Christian might well form his opinions on, say, US intervention in Iraq in 2003, or possible intervention in Syria in 2013, by a consideration and application of just war theology, in which the religious opinions and identifications of the parties to the conflict are completely irrelevant.

No people have a duty to inform themselves- by supporting the US invasion and overthrow of the government in Iraq Christians were supporting the genocide of the Assyrians as well as others in Iraq. They were supporting the murder and exile of fellow Christians because of their Christianity. There is no getting around that. The same goes for anyone who supports the FSA and US intervention against Assad.

Kosovo would be another example of supposed Christians supporting the destruction of Christian Churches.

Peregrinus

SoulandForm wrote: »

In every conflict regardless lining with other Christians might be "tribalism" in a negative way however if Christians form one Body in Christ showing a shocking lack of empathy for fellow Christians does suggest something fundamentally wrong.

Christians are called to love everybody, without distinction. Thus,in a Christian, lack of empathy with anyone is "shocking". But there is no basis in the gospel for saying that a failure to empathise with a fellow-Christian is more shocking than a failure to empathise with a non-Christian.

A particular empathy with people with whom we have something in common, such a shared religious faith, is of course understandable, but it is not something enjoined upon us by the gospel. If anything, a consistent theme in scripture - both in the Old Testament and in the New - is the importance of love and care for those who are different from us, rather than those who are the same as us.

Peregrinus

SoulandForm wrote: »

No people have a duty to inform themselves- by supporting the US invasion and overthrow of the government in Iraq Christians were supporting the genocide of the Assyrians as well as others in Iraq. They were supporting the murder and exile of fellow Christians because of their Christianity. There is no getting around that. The same goes for anyone who supports the FSA and US intervention against Assad.

But the rightness or wrongness of support for the US intervention in Iraq does not depend to any extent on whether the people who suffered because of that intervention were Christian or not. It is not the case that the suffering of Christians weighs greater in the moral balance than the suffering of non-Christians.

SoulandForm

Peregrinus wrote: »

But the rightness or wrongness of support for the US intervention in Iraq does not depend to any extent on whether the people who suffered because of that intervention were Christian or not. It is not the case that the suffering of Christians weighs greater in the moral balance than the suffering of non-Christians.

Im really not sure about this- "As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the Household of Faith."--Gal. 6:10. Certainly we should not act unjustly towards non-Christians however if a Christian is being attacked because they are a Christian is that not an attack on Christ Himself show dwells in Christians? Should we really care as much about sexual perverts for instance than pious Christians?

"And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it."

1 Corinthians 12:26.

Manach

Historically there was at least in Western Europe there was the concept of 'Res publica Christiana' -ie Christendom. An international community of believers whose alliances crossed notional territorial boundaries. So this allowed a flowering common European culture whilst still allowing (as per the historian Neil Ferguson) and allowing a dynamic competiton between political entities
This to a lesser extent extended to Christians outside Europe and whilst there was some hostility with Eastern Orthodox, it was not on the same scale as other religious schisms. As well, given the external threats faced by Europe, the myth of Prester John during the middle ages as a possible source of assistance was commonly held up to the age of exploration.
It is now a pity in today's Europe, that the historical ties that once bound them to other Christian communities world wide have dissolved, especially in places like the Middle east where ancient communities have been cleansed from that region.

Peregrinus

SoulandForm wrote: »

Im really not sure about this- "As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the Household of Faith."--Gal. 6:10. Certainly we should not act unjustly towards non-Christians however if a Christian is being attacked because they are a Christian is that not an attack on Christ Himself show dwells in Christians?

I don't think, though, that we can parlay an injunction to let our actions be to the good of everybody, especially those who are of the household of faith into an injunction to always side with Christians in a struggle against non--Christians. Remember, we are enjoined to do good to those who persecute us, and if Christianity teaches us anything its the futility of power struggles, regardless of their outcome.

SoulandForm wrote: »

Should we really care as much about sexual perverts for instance than pious Christians?

Yes, of course we should. Scripture and tradition are absolutely unambiguous about this. We are called to love everybody, without exception or qualification, saint and sinner alike.

SoulandForm

Peregrinus wrote: »

Yes, of course we should. Scripture and tradition are absolutely unambiguous about this. We are called to love everybody, without exception or qualification, saint and sinner alike.

Really? "Do I not hate those who hate You, O LORD? And do I not loathe those who rise up against You? I hate them with the utmost hatred; They have become my enemies." Psalm 139.

As for tradition I wont post what St St. John Chrysostom and Martin Luther wrote about the unbelieving Jews.

But it depends how you define "Love"; certainly we should pray for sexual perverts but there is a difference between doing that and having an equal concern for them and fellow Christians.

Peregrinus wrote: »

I don't think, though, that we can parlay an injunction to let our actions be to the good of everybody, especially those who are of the household of faith into an injunction to always side with Christians in a struggle against non--Christians. Remember, we are enjoined to do good to those who persecute us, and if Christianity teaches us anything its the futility of power struggles, regardless of their outcome.
.

Maybe not if fellow Christians are acting unjustly, I for instance tend to side with RCs nearly always against members of my own denomination where Im from in Ireland because the RCs nearly always have justice on their side; but to side with the enemies of fellow Christians when your fellow Christians are not acting unjustly and do not have the upper hand so to speak is an entirely different matter. How can anyone seriously who claims to be a Christian and yet sides with the KLA in Kosovo for instance avoid the judgement of hell for siding against Christ Himself?

Do you see my point?

Power struggles are part of life in this fallen world- there is no way to avoid them and it could be argued that most of us have a civic duty not to avoid them?

Peregrinus wrote: »

But the rightness or wrongness of support for the US intervention in Iraq does not depend to any extent on whether the people who suffered because of that intervention were Christian or not. It is not the case that the suffering of Christians weighs greater in the moral balance than the suffering of non-Christians.

But it does IF they are suffering and being attacked because they are Christians because that is an attack on Christ Himself.

Peregrinus

SoulandForm wrote: »

Maybe not if fellow Christians are acting unjustly, I for instance tend to side with RCs nearly always against members of my own denomination where Im from in Ireland because the RCs nearly always have justice on their side; but to side with the enemies of fellow Christians when your fellow Christians are not acting unjustly and do not have the upper hand so to speak is an entirely different matter. How can anyone seriously who claims to be a Christian and yet sides with the KLA in Kosovo for instance avoid the judgement of hell for siding against Christ Himself?

Do you see my point?

We should always side with the people who are victims of injustice, whether they are Christians or not, and whether those working the injustice are Christians or not.

Do you see my point?

SoulandForm wrote: »

Power struggles are part of life in this fallen world- there is no way to avoid them and it could be argued that most of us have a civic duty not to avoid them?

I don't know about civic duty, but we have a Christian duty to see them for the empty promises they are. If there is one the sacrifice of Christ teaches us, is that we are not to seek for power, or expect the exercise of power to solve our problems.