Management Fees

stargazer 68

Looking for some information here folks

My sis has been in her apartment for approx 5 years. The management company never collected any fees (guy was a bit of a waste of space to be honest). Think he never bothered as the hoardings were up for well over a year after people moved in and a lot of them are still empty and there were a lot of problems with the apartments.

Anyway a new management company took over last year and is now demanding the fees including the 3 years backdated ones from the other company.

Surely this can't be right?

Paulw

You mean management agent?

Fees would be owed to the management company from date of purchase.

So, even if fees weren't collected, they were still due.

In short, your sister owes, so must pay.

stargazer 68

Paulw wrote: »

You mean management agent?

Fees would be owed to the management company from date of purchase.

So, even if fees weren't collected, they were still due.

In short, your sister owes, so must pay.

Yep she is setting up a payment plan with them as its 2500!! Just wondered. She said management company so assumed it was a new one.

Paulw

She is the management company. All unit owners are members of the management company.

The management company hire a management agent to do the day to day work, such as collecting fees, etc.

All payments should be made out to Development Management Company Ltd, and not to management agent ltd.

camphor

Dovies wrote: »

Looking for some information here folks

My sis has been in her apartment for approx 5 years. The management company never collected any fees (guy was a bit of a waste of space to be honest). Think he never bothered as the hoardings were up for well over a year after people moved in and a lot of them are still empty and there were a lot of problems with the apartments.

Anyway a new management company took over last year and is now demanding the fees including the 3 years backdated ones from the other company.

Surely this can't be right?

It is not right. Was she asked to go to and AGM and were accounts presented at the AGM? Have the common areas been transferred? How was the fee decided upon?

D3PO

Dovies wrote: »

Surely this can't be right?

Owner if having to pay owed management fees shocker ..... :rolleyes:

How you can even question it cant be right ?

D3PO

camphor wrote: »

It is not right. Was she asked to go to and AGM and were accounts presented at the AGM? Have the common areas been transferred? How was the fee decided upon?

The OP's sister doesn't even know the difference between the management agent and the management company and you expect them to know about the AGM details ?

People that don't know that are generally those that have no interest in how the MC is being run so are unlikely to know the answers to those questions.

Forest Demon

Were the services delivered? When you say they never collected the fees, did they send out the bills? Was the apartment building insured during this time?

camphor

D3PO wrote: »

The OP's sister doesn't even know the difference between the management agent and the management company and you expect them to know about the AGM details ?

People that don't know that are generally those that have no interest in how the MC is being run so are unlikely to know the answers to those questions.

People do not become liable for management fees due to ignorance. There is a procedure in the MUDS act for levying management fees. If it is not followed the fees are not due.

Santa Cruz

Just another case where people purchased apartments and often were given minimal information about their responsibility to pay fees, or dodgy builders collecting the management fees themselves, people not knowing that they should be shareholders in the management company, people not knowing difference between management company and management agents etc.
Hopefully the message is getting through now and apartment owners are realising their rights and RESPONSIBILITIES

D3PO

camphor wrote: »

People do not become liable for management fees due to ignorance. There is a procedure in the MUDS act for levying management fees. If it is not followed the fees are not due.

I never implied that you become liable due to ignorance what I said was somebody that doesn't know the difference between a Management Company and a managing agent is unlikely to be able to answer the questions regarding the procedural nature of weather the MC has followed the Multi Unit Development act.

Lets assume they do know and there were procedural issues in previous years its a moot point anyway. Sinking fund deficiencies and outstanding maintenance bills for lifts, landscaping etc will still exist, they will need to be paid for on top of the normal annual budget.

So it just means the annual fees will have to be put up to resolve the issue, the end result will remain the same.

stargazer 68

Jesus folks wind your necks in! I never said she wasnt going to pay -she is fully aware she has to pay management fees and was fully aware when she bought the place!! She has, as have all the other owners, set up payment plans with the new AGENT!! I simply asked if the new company could backdate the payments from before they took over the contract!! Apologies if I upset anyone by not knowing it was an agent and not a company!

And no there has never been an AGM or notice of one!

The_Conductor

Dovies wrote: »

Jesus folks wind your necks in! I never said she wasnt going to pay -she is fully aware she has to pay management fees and was fully aware when she bought the place!! She has, as have all the other owners, set up payment plans with the new AGENT!! I simply asked if the new company could backdate the payments from before they took over the contract!! Apologies if I upset anyone by not knowing it was an agent and not a company!

And no there has never been an AGM or notice of one!

If there has never been an AGM- the Management Company are in breach of the Companies Act, and could potentially be struck off.
Your sister is part of the Management Company- as are all owners.
A new Management Agent- cannot be appointed, unless this is voted on at an AGM.

Your sister does owe money- but more pertinently, she needs to ask questions quickly.

athtrasna

The_Conductor wrote: »

A new Management Agent- cannot be appointed, unless this is voted on at an AGM.

This part is not true. Directors have the discretion to change agents should it be in the best interest of the development.

OP your sister owes the fees to the management company, the management agent is charged with collecting those fees, the time of their appointment is irrelevant.

camphor

athtrasna wrote: »

This part is not true. Directors have the discretion to change agents should it be in the best interest of the development.

OP your sister owes the fees to the management company, the management agent is charged with collecting those fees, the time of their appointment is irrelevant.

If there hasn't been an AGM they can't legally levy a charge.

The_Conductor

athtrasna wrote: »

This part is not true. Directors have the discretion to change agents should it be in the best interest of the development.

Depends on the articles of association to be honest.
Ours state that a 2/3rd majority vote, must be secured to change agents.
A quorum is required to pass annual accounts.
3 weeks notice and a set of accounts must be furnished by post to all owners, prior to the AGM, which itself, must be held on a weekday, outside of working hours, and assessable to owners.

As per the above comments- the absence of a properly convened AGM contravenes company law, one way or the other.

pundy

Can anyone explain to me if it is necessary to have paid your management fee's upfront, or can you pay it off as long as it's paid before the end of the year???

i am currently getting harassed by my management agency for fee's owed and it's only september!!

any advice would be great thanks

pundy

Can anyone explain to me if it is necessary to have paid your management fee's upfront, or can you pay it off as long as it's paid before the end of the year???

i am currently getting harassed by my management agency for fee's owed and it's only september!!

any advice would be great thanks

Paulw

What do your legal contracts say?

Normally it is payment due from first date. So, it is required that you pay up front. However, most management companies allow you to pay over the year, but they have no obligation to do so.

pundy

Paulw wrote: »

What do your legal contracts say?

Normally it is payment due from first date. So, it is required that you pay up front. However, most management companies allow you to pay over the year, but they have no obligation to do so.

well, the thing is, the company changed from ODPM to a new company in the last year. for the last few years i have paid it in 2 - 3 installments, having it paid by the end of each year, without any problems. now, this new company are going mental looking for the money - which i said to them i would have paid by january 2014 at the latest. they agreed with me, as i told them to "see last years setup - i had it paid in large installments, rather than monthly or one off" they said "Ok" and said they would put a note on my account to say it would be ok and that i could pay it until the end of the year.

then yesterday, i received a letter dated the 4th september claiming if i dont pay the remaining 1265eur off by 11th September they would be going down the legal route.

it's a total mess, nobody in there is taking responsibility and i end up talking to "nicci" in the wrong section for 10 minutes before i get put on hold again and told that "they will call you back tomorrow from accounts".

basically, i suppose what i am really asking is:
do they have a leg to stand on (legally)?
should i address the fact that i feel "Harassed" by them ?
will this actually go any further if i let them know i am paying the amount in full by the middle of jan 14'????

the whole reason it annoys me is because i had set it up ("we'll put a note on your account") with them , and i think they are annoyed/worried as i hadnt set up a direct debit with them from day 1...

Paulw

You mean that your management agent changed, not management company.

You are due to pay, in full, by the date on the invoice. So, if your management company year is 01 Jan 2013 to 31st Dec 2013, then the bill is due on 1st Jan 2013.

But, if they are willing, they can allow you pay in stages.

If you are having problems with the agent, then why not talk directly to the directors of the management company? They can make a decision that is of higher authority than the management agent.

As for your questions -

Do they have a legal leg to stand on? Yes, most likely they do, but it will depend on your contracts.
Should you address the fact that you feel harassed? You are not being harassed. You are overdue on payment of a fee, which is part of your contract of purchase.
Will this go any further? Unknown. Maybe, maybe not. That depends on both you and them.

My advice - make some payments, write to them and explain your plan, and get a written agreement from them to take payments by installment. If you can't deal with the management agent, contact the directors of the management company.

pundy

Thanks for the info - Have it sorted out now. THEY were in the wrong.

Skybarbie

Santa Cruz wrote: »

Just another case where people purchased apartments and often were given minimal information about their responsibility to pay fees, or dodgy builders collecting the management fees themselves, people not knowing that they should be shareholders in the management company, people not knowing difference between management company and management agents etc.
Hopefully the message is getting through now and apartment owners are realising their rights and RESPONSIBILITIES

Your very right however it is only when people get to the stage of desperation after feeling shafted year after year, paying extortionate rates and not getting the service they're supposed to be paying for, and having the home they bought slowly become dilapidated and thinking how is this allowed to happen, that people get educated.
It should never get to this stage, but no one tells you this when you buy an apartment. I naively thought that when you pay for window cleaning your windows would get cleaned, that your bins would be collected and that repairs would be completed.
I only wanted to get out of the renting game so I would have no more ties to anyone except myself. I never knew that I could be affected by every other person in the development who chose not to pay. And that even after my mortgage is paid I will still be affected by others as I will still be tied to a mgt co.

No one tells you these things.

djimi

Skybarbie wrote: »

Your very right however it is only when people get to the stage of desperation after feeling shafted year after year, paying extortionate rates and not getting the service they're supposed to be paying for, and having the home they bought slowly become dilapidated and thinking how is this allowed to happen, that people get educated.
It should never get to this stage, but no one tells you this when you buy an apartment. I naively thought that when you pay for window cleaning your windows would get cleaned, that your bins would be collected and that repairs would be completed.
I only wanted to get out of the renting game so I would have no more ties to anyone except myself. I never knew that I could be affected by every other person in the development who chose not to pay. And that even after my mortgage is paid I will still be affected by others as I will still be tied to a mgt co.

No one tells you these things.

Perhaps not, but when you are spending a couple of hundred grand on something is the onus not on you to know exactly what you are buying into? Surely you knew what a management company was prior to purchasing?

Dont get me wrong, I sympathise with any owner who lives in a complex where services are reduced because of leaseholders not paying their way, but it is a risk that you take when you purchase in a managed complex.

Paulw

Skybarbie wrote: »

Your very right however it is only when people get to the stage of desperation that people get educated.
I naively thought that when you pay for window cleaning your windows would get cleaned, that your bins would be collected and that repairs would be completed.
I never knew that I could be affected by every other person in the development who chose not to pay. And that even after my mortgage is paid I will still be affected by others as I will still be tied to a mgt co.

No one tells you these things.

You, like so many others, just made assumptions. You bought without considering the factors.

Like you, I bought a unit in a managed development. But, before I bought I did some research. I also had a very good solicitor, who helped guide me. I have a copy of all the legal documents relating to my purchase. I know what I am liable for, and what the management company is liable for. After a few months of moving in, I and a few others got together and we wanted to take control of our management company from the developer.

I bought one of the last units. The development was completed and the builder ready to leave site.

I was a director, on and off, since we took control. That's over 7 years now. We decide how the place is run. We know who has and hasn't paid fees. We have a fair attendance at our AGMs (about 1/5 attendance). We debate what we need to spend money on. Sometimes, we don't have the funds, sometimes we do. In general, there are very few major issues.

Like just about every development, our main concern is uncollected fees, but we have actions in place dealing with that. We only have a few units (approx 10) who have fees due for more than 2 years. Most people are on payment plans.

Education is the biggest problem, and we try to help people with newsletters. People need to take responsibility for their own purchases. They need to understand that if they don't pay their fees, then the whole development is impacted.

I really like where I live. I get along well with my neighbours (rented units and owner resident units). I like that I have a say in how our funds are spent. I like the management agent we use, since they respond well to our needs, when things are within the budget and we have the funds.

People need to stop blaming "the management company" and realise that THEY are the management company.

Skybarbie

Yes if I was to buy today of course I'd be more informed, hindsight etc,
However people who are in this situation today bought at a time when there was a property boom and apartment blocks where being built all over the country for the first time in mass. I was also not that familiar with technology, or the Internet as we all are today,and there was not the weariness that there is today around the building and property industry after pyrite scandals and priory hall etc. And people are still not aware that this is going on, and when I say this I mean that there are corrupt mgt cos out there that will take your money and not chase up non paying residents, and literally just let your development sink into dilapidation.

Paulw

Skybarbie wrote: »

And people are still not aware that this is going on, and when I say this I mean that there are corrupt mgt cos out there that will take your money and not chase up non paying residents, and literally just let your development sink into dilapidation.

Sorry, let me say this once more ... just for clarification.....

YOU are the management company. YOU are a member of the company. You, and the other unit owners, decide how the money is spent, what funds are needed and what needs to be done.

Santa Cruz

Paulw wrote: »

You, like so many others, just made assumptions. You bought without considering the factors.

Like you, I bought a unit in a managed development. But, before I bought I did some research. I also had a very good solicitor, who helped guide me. I have a copy of all the legal documents relating to my purchase. I know what I am liable for, and what the management company is liable for. After a few months of moving in, I and a few others got together and we wanted to take control of our management company from the developer.

I bought one of the last units. The development was completed and the builder ready to leave site.

I was a director, on and off, since we took control. That's over 7 years now. We decide how the place is run. We know who has and hasn't paid fees. We have a fair attendance at our AGMs (about 1/5 attendance). We debate what we need to spend money on. Sometimes, we don't have the funds, sometimes we do. In general, there are very few major issues.

Like just about every development, our main concern is uncollected fees, but we have actions in place dealing with that. We only have a few units (approx 10) who have fees due for more than 2 years. Most people are on payment plans.

Education is the biggest problem, and we try to help people with newsletters. People need to take responsibility for their own purchases. They need to understand that if they don't pay their fees, then the whole development is impacted.

I really like where I live. I get along well with my neighbours (rented units and owner resident units). I like that I have a say in how our funds are spent. I like the management agent we use, since they respond well to our needs, when things are within the budget and we have the funds.

People need to stop blaming "the management company" and realise that THEY are the management company.

You are absolutely correct. Most purchasers don't seem to realise that they are equal shareholders in the management company. It dosen't take a lot to be interested in the management of the company. The higher level of owner occupier the better even though I am an investor myself.

sohappy

Dovies wrote: »

Looking for some information here folks

My sis has been in her apartment for approx 5 years. The management company never collected any fees (guy was a bit of a waste of space to be honest). Think he never bothered as the hoardings were up for well over a year after people moved in and a lot of them are still empty and there were a lot of problems with the apartments.

Anyway a new management company took over last year and is now demanding the fees including the 3 years backdated ones from the other company.

Surely this can't be right?

Are you saying the agent never collected fees from any of the apartment owners or just never chased down the ones that never paid?
One would think that they were collecting enough to cover their own fees plus day to day running costs, insurance, esb, cleaning gardening, ect

The_Conductor

Lamees wrote: »

They are not eligible to collect the previous 3 years fees. However they have their own terms and policies of a new management, so you should pay 1 year fees if they force then you can hire a lawyer.

How do you reckon they are not eligible to collect the previous 3 years fees?
What do you mean 'they have their own terms and policies of a new management'?
Are you seriously suggesting the OP's sister pay the current year's fees, and tells the management company to bog off regarding all the arrears.

OP- Your sister is a member of the Management Company- as has been said umpteen times already in this thread.
She will have the articles of association of the Management Company- which among other things, spells out the Management Company's obligations towards her, and her obligations towards the MC.
From a fundamental standpoint- as a member who is not in good stead, while she may have the right to attend the MC meeting, she will most probably not have the right to vote on any matters at the meeting.
Regardless of what do-gooders tell you about data protection etc- the Management Company is perfectly within its rights to circulate a list of all compliant properties at the AGM (or by any other mechanism of the Director's choosing)- which will effectively mean your sister would be listed as non-compliant.

The MUD Act that is getting bandied about here- only commenced in 2011 and was in force for 2012- so even its provisions may not be relevant to events prior to the commencement of the Act.

At the end of the day- she owes the money, and will ultimately have to pay.

This whole thread just smacks of people not paying their mortgages all over again- expecting their neighbours to bail them out- or even better- having a shake of the magic money tree.

Skybarbie

I've a query regarding the MUD act 2011.
Section 18 under service charges no 4 (b) states;

"Where the service charge proposed to the general meeting is disapproved by not less than 75 per cent of the persons present and voting, the proposed service charge shall not take effect but the charge applying to the previous period shall continue to apply pending the adoption of a service charge in respect of the period concerned."

We had issues with the previous years budget, however when the new budget was released most of the fees had increased, some had even doubled. Because this new budget was not agreed to, the agent quoted MUD and we had no option to revert.
(We are only in the process of organising a committee and the builders are still directors.)
Can someone give me their understanding of "pending the adoption of a service charge in respect of the period concerned".

Paulw

A 2nd AGM (or EGM) should be held, to get a budget approved. The directors and management agent should come back with a revised budget.

Skybarbie

Paulw wrote: »

A 2nd AGM (or EGM) should be held, to get a budget approved. The directors and management agent should come back with a revised budget.

And the committee put this motion forward to the agent?

Paulw

There is no committee in a management company.

There is a board of directors and the company members.

If a group of members have an issue, then the AGM or EGM is the place to raise these issues.

No reason why people can't approach/contact the directors directly, and also chase the management agent to provide a better budget.