Pedestrians: You're going to kill me

Stabshauptmann

So in an average week I drive 100km+ through Dublin and cycle 60-70km, with about 2-4 dart journeys.

As a driver, I know how to claim road when merging after the east link toll bridge in heavy traffic - three lanes merge into one and everyone is an absolute dick; there is no concept of queuing. I know how to make my (perfectly legal) right turn against two lanes of traffic on Drumcondra road. I even know how to navigate the M50 without undertaking.

In all my driving I have never once had to slam my brakes because of a cyclist. I guess its a combination of using my mirrors and predicting their behaviour.

I've been behind cyclists, but never long enough that its worth thinking about.

I know the feeling of sheer terror when I'm cycling as an articulated truck over takes me on quays and I have no option but to suddenly mount the footpath because he hasnt given me enough room, and I have had to slam my brakes with an impatient motorists overtakes me to immediately turn left :rolleyes:
But they're not whats going to kill me.

The most dangerous people on the road though, are pedestrians. I put a bell on my bike, then a horn, and now I just shout. Pedestrians just walk without looking if they cant hear a car. As I cycle from Erlsford Terrace I will encounter Pedestrians crossing en mass leaving me no where to go even though I have a green light at the following junctions:

• Corner of the green and Dawson St
• Nassau and Sufolk St
• Dame St at the BOI
• O'Connel St at the spire.

If there isnt a car coming beside me to keep pedestrians in their place I need to take up the middle of the road and shout as I come through because without fail there is always at least one person who seconds before I cross walks out in front of me. Muppets. And then the reaction is always the same, that the god damn cyclist nearly ran me over. I do not break red lights at these junctions - pedestrians need to look before they walk.

When one of these days I will collide with some eejit who couldnt wait for their light they're going to have a broken hip and I'm going to have my share of broken bones

hardCopy

You should never have a car driving beside you, unless you're talking about a two-lane road. If you keep out a few more feet from the kerb you'll have room and time to avoid peds if they step off the kerb. Taking the lane will also stop the artics from passing you.

TheBandicoot

Frankly all those locations should be pedestrianised, that's the real solution and would be great for those areas. Maybe BXD will facilitate that.

Emme

I also drive and cycle and agree with the OP. Some pedestrians are lethal. I find cycling on Dame Street, particularly between the City Hall lights and Trinity College to be very dangerous. For some reason pedestrians drift onto and off the street at random from the footpath. The traffic is so heavy sometimes it's impossible to avoid them. In fairness most people who do this seem to be tourists over for "the gathering" or visiting students.

I don't know if you can do anything because some of these people probably come from places where footpaths are a lot wider to accommodate the wider people

hardCopy

Emme wrote: »

I also drive and cycle and agree with the OP. Some pedestrians are lethal. I find cycling on Dame Street, particularly between the City Hall lights and Trinity College to be very dangerous. For some reason pedestrians drift onto and off the street at random from the footpath. The traffic is so heavy sometimes it's impossible to avoid them. In fairness most people who do this seem to be tourists over for "the gathering" or visiting students.

I don't know if you can do anything because some of these people probably come from places where footpaths are a lot wider to accommodate the wider people

I find the cars tend to move quite slow on Dame Street. I'd always tuck in behind a car along there, let the car hit any lemmings who jump out.

LXFlyer

TheBandicoot wrote: »

Frankly all those locations should be pedestrianised, that's the real solution and would be great for those areas. Maybe BXD will facilitate that.

I suspect that you may have to let buses through that area too...

markpb

It's a fact of life when cycling in the city centre - you just have to know where to expect it and how to avoid it. You should never cycle close to the kerb at any busy footpath (Dame St, College Green, O'Connell st, etc). You should be prepared to stop (or at least slow down) at pedestrian crossings in the city centre, even when you have a green light. It sucks but it's better than being involved in an accident you could have avoided.

TheBandicoot

lxflyer wrote: »

I suspect that you may have to let buses through that area too...

That is an issue, yes, and I don't have a good solution in mind.

Emme

markpb wrote: »

It's a fact of life when cycling in the city centre - you just have to know where to expect it and how to avoid it. You should never cycle close to the kerb at any busy footpath (Dame St, College Green, O'Connell st, etc). You should be prepared to stop (or at least slow down) at pedestrian crossings in the city centre, even when you have a green light. It sucks but it's better than being involved in an accident you could have avoided.

Stopping/slowing down at pedestrian crossings isn't a problem. Cycling away from the kerb on Dame Street is a little difficult because you often get up to 7 buses going up that street one after the other. Other traffic also drives as close to the kerb as is possible. Traffic coming off Georges Street, traffic turning left off Dame Street or traffic turning onto Dame Street makes it inadvisable to cycle too far from the kerb.

At least there isn't rubbish thrown into the kerbside of Dame Street, black bags of rubbish used to be a common occurrence there. Dirty Dublin! :rolleyes:

markpb

Emme wrote: »

Cycling away from the kerb on Dame Street is a little difficult because you often get up to 7 buses going up that street one after the other.

Those buses will be stopping in a few meters and, because it's the city centre, won't be doing much speed anyway. You're not holding them up by more than a few seconds by taking the lane and you're ensuring your safety and the safety of any pedestrian who lemmings out in front of you.

Traffic coming off Georges Street, traffic turning left off Dame Street or traffic turning onto Dame Street makes it inadvisable to cycle too far from the kerb.

I don't understand this bit, what do you mean?

hardCopy

Emme wrote: »

Stopping/slowing down at pedestrian crossings isn't a problem. Cycling away from the kerb on Dame Street is a little difficult because you often get up to 7 buses going up that street one after the other. Other traffic also drives as close to the kerb as is possible. Traffic coming off Georges Street, traffic turning left off Dame Street or traffic turning onto Dame Street makes it inadvisable to cycle too far from the kerb.

At least there isn't rubbish thrown into the kerbside of Dame Street, black bags of rubbish used to be a common occurrence there. Dirty Dublin! :rolleyes:

You really shouldn't be within an ass's roar of the black bags on any street.

Moving out from the kerb means taking over the whole lane, i.e. positioning yourself in front of the car behind so they can't pass you without changing lanes.

It seems counter-intuitive as we're always told as kids, stay off the road, keep left, give way etc. But the safest place to be on that kind of traffic is in the middle of the lane, that's a 30kph limited area with stop start traffic, you won't hold anyone up by using the middle of the lane.

If you ride in the gutter expect to be squeezed off the road, doored, side-swiped, left-hooked or crushed.

On that particular stretch of Dame Street I'd always cycle in the right hand lane, there are too many buses pulling in and out of the left lane and if you get stuck on the left you'll have difficulty continuing straight past the bottom of George's Street.

Stabshauptmann

hardCopy wrote: »

You should never have a car driving beside you, unless you're talking about a two-lane road. If you keep out a few more feet from the kerb you'll have room and time to avoid peds if they step off the kerb. Taking the lane will also stop the artics from passing you.

Really?! I don't think I could agree with you there. Obviously my safety always comes first, and that often does mean keeping a very healthy distance from the kerb, but I would only under unusual circumstances hog an entire lane when cycling. In fact, as a motorist I would be very annoyed if all cyclists traveled in the middle of the lane at all times.

hardCopy

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

Really?! I don't think I could agree with you there. Obviously my safety always comes first, and that often does mean keeping a very healthy distance from the kerb, but I would only under unusual circumstances hog an entire lane when cycling. In fact, as a motorist I would be very annoyed if all cyclists traveled in the middle of the lane at all times.

Just worry about number one. There's no point putting yourself at risk to avoid inconveniencing others. If you ride by the kerb you will have cars passing right by your elbow.

SpaceTime

You should try pedestrians in Cork!

They think nothing of walking straight across 3 lanes of city traffic while talking on a mobile with a cup of coffee in the other hand and then give the traffic (cars or bikes) a wave/smile

You just have to be aware of it. Cities are always a comprimise where cars, pedestrians and bikes share space.

I find one thing in some areas of Dublin (on the edges of the city centre) can be very poorly designed crossings / lack of pedestrian lights.

It's improved a bit in recent years but there are still some very inadequate setups.

They also sometimes hold pedestrians for too long. That's what can cause people to chance dashing into traffic (especially in wet weather)

galwaycyclist

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

Really?! I don't think I could agree with you there. Obviously my safety always comes first, and that often does mean keeping a very healthy distance from the kerb, but I would only under unusual circumstances hog an entire lane when cycling. In fact, as a motorist I would be very annoyed if all cyclists traveled in the middle of the lane at all times.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that cyclists travel in the middle of the lane at "all times". However, it is always a good idea to keep well out from the kerb. In some situations it is a good idea to take a central position in the lane.

It is situation dependent, it depends on the nature of the traffic, the available road width and so on. Typical occasions which may require taking an assertive road position include.

• approaching junctions - where cars may pull out accross you or attempt to come from behind and cut you up
• negotiating roundabouts - where you need to be in the lane and tackle the junction exactly like a car
• approaching pinch points - where a following motorists might be tempted to try and "squeeze through" with you in the gap.
• when traffic is moving at cycling speed - this obviously depends on the cyclist.

Taking the lane in the above situations is specifically taught in modern cycle training.

galwaycyclist

hardCopy wrote: »

You should never have a car driving beside you, unless you're talking about a two-lane road.

Just in case this point needs further explanation for others. The law says that drivers and cyclists shall not overtake unless they can complete the manoeuvre safely in the time and space available.

There is nothing in law that allows a motorist to just drive beside another vehicle or bicycle in the same lane.

The law on cycling two abreast only applies to cyclists - it does not apply to motorists attempting to drive beside cyclists, or other cars, who they cannot physically pass.

Edit: Arguably the law on cycling two abreast also only applies to cyclists who have agreed to cycle side by side. A cyclist who just cycles up beside another cyclist without properly overtaking is obstructing and impeding that person without any good cause.

monkeybutter

hardCopy wrote: »

You should never have a car driving beside you, unless you're talking about a two-lane road. If you keep out a few more feet from the kerb you'll have room and time to avoid peds if they step off the kerb. Taking the lane will also stop the artics from passing you.

clearly he is talking about 2 lane roads, roads where their are cycle lanes or the cars etc are overtaking him, for any of those scenarios a car can be driving beside him. It's these cars that the pedestrians fear and they simply dont pay as much attention to the cyclist.

Even when you are a meter from the curb you won't necessary have either the time or the space to avoid a pedestrian. They could step off and stop within the meter, they could move in a way that allow you to cut to the left of them into space, but just as easily they could have moved the meter out and you will still hit them.

Taking the lane isn't the answer here, it's taking it handy and watching the footpaths ahead for likely bolters around college green, O'Connell street etc as you know pedestrians can act like this in busy areas.

Just as with a car, the speed limit may be 50 in some of these areas, but typically you are going to take it easier here to give yourself more chance to react. The pedestrian is after all top of the tree.

hardCopy

monkeybutter wrote: »

clearly he is talking about 2 lane roads, roads where their are cycle lanes or the cars etc are overtaking him, for any of those scenarios a car can be driving beside him. It's these cars that the pedestrians fear and they simply dont pay as much attention to the cyclist. Even when you are a meter from the curb you won't necessary have either the time or the space to avoid a pedestrian. They could step off and stop within the meter, they could move in a way that allow you to cut to the left of them into space, but just as easily they could have moved the meter out and you will still hit them. Taking the lane isn't the answer here, it's taking it handy and watching the footpaths ahead for likely bolters around college green, O'Connell street etc as you know pedestrians can act like this in busy areas. Just as with a car, the speed limit may be 50 in some of these areas, but typically you are going to take it easier here to give yourself more chance to react. The pedestrian is after all top of the tree.

I was thinking of this section of Dame Street, where there is no cycle lane: http://goo.gl/maps/LmZR8

Although there is some further up, past George's Street.

If you keep left along here you'll be forced into a left turn up George's Street so I would always take the lane along here. If you're only a metre out from the kerb you have less options when a pedestrian steps out. Also, cars tend not to go very fast along there so you're not much of an inconvenience if you do take the lane.

beauf

Pedestrians in Dublin city have very poor road awareness.

Not sure why its turning into a thread about cycling. best to find a cycling route away from pedestrians, if possible. If there's lots of pedestrians around you have to slow right down. They just walk out in front of anything.