Roman Ireland - Alternate History

Bigfellalixnaw

What impact would a Roman presence in Ireland have had on Ireland? Would there have a situation towards the decline of the Roman Empire that Roman legions citizens on the periphery of the this part of the empire would have become 'more Irish than the Irish themselves' (much like the Normans) and have formed their own break-away kingdom. Personally, just speculating here, but if such a event occurred Ireland could have become united thanks to the acquired local knowledge and military advantage of this new breed of 'celtic-roman' people. In time they might possibly invade and colonise the rest of the British Isles and in doing so halt other invasions from the Saxons, etc. Anybody like to put forward any corrections to this theory?

Peregrinus

Bigfellalixnaw wrote: »

What impact would a Roman presence in Ireland have had on Ireland? Would there have a situation towards the decline of the Roman Empire that Roman legions citizens on the periphery of the this part of the empire would have become 'more Irish than the Irish themselves' (much like the Normans) and have formed their own break-away kingdom. Personally, just speculating here, but if such a event occurred Ireland could have become united thanks to the acquired local knowledge and military advantage of this new breed of 'celtic-roman' people. In time they might possibly invade and colonise the rest of the British Isles and in doing so halt other invasions from the Saxons, etc. Anybody like to put forward any corrections to this theory?

The main objection, I think, is the example of how other countries colonised by the Romans fared as the Empire dissolved. In no instance was Roman hegemony replaced by anything like a united national political entity - not in Anglia, not in Gaul, not in Hispania, not in Germania, not even in Italia. In every case the pre-existing and still-existing tribal loyalties and identies meant that the Empire was succeeded by a patchwork of local fiefs and kingdoms. The chances that things would have played out differently in a post-Roman Hibernia must be small.

Jawgap

The Romans never stayed here for the same reason they never stayed in Germany and other peripheral reasons - the population was too dispersed and too small to make it worthwhile in terms of tax and revenue.

Even Britain only offered marginal net benefits to the empire when it was added which goes some way to explain why it was cut loose early on the period when the empire when it was retrenching.

The Deva Victrix fort in Chester was supposed to have been built as a base from which incursions into Ireland cold be launched, so its possible a significant presence could have been established along the Boyne valley and into the richer farmlands in Meath, but its questionable whether such settlement would have been viable and would have been abandoned before Britain meaning any Roman presence would have been relatively short lived.

Dr.Tank Adams

I'm not suggesting the Romans ever settled here in great numbers, but is there not some evidence coming up that they may have set up a few outpost's on the east coast? Either way, I doubt it would have made a massive amount of difference if they'd settled here, because when the empire collapsed we would have just gone back into isolation, unlike Britain which had Germanic incursions that changed their cultural landscape.

slowburner

Dr.Tank Adams wrote: »

I'm not suggesting the Romans ever settled here in great numbers, but is there not some evidence coming up that they may have set up a few outpost's on the east coast? Either way, I doubt it would have made a massive amount of difference if they'd settled here, because when the empire collapsed we would have just gone back into isolation, unlike Britain which had Germanic incursions that changed their cultural landscape.

There is an ongoing re-evaluation of Romano-Irish sites and artefacts previously overlooked or dismissed as not Roman.
There was very definitely an established view that Ireland was perpheral to Roman requirements. That view is now under scrutiny.
The work is being carried out under the auspices of the Later Iron Age and Roman Ireland project (LIARI) which is part of the Discovery Programme.
The conclusions and evidence are soon due for publication.
Coincidentally (?) the LIARI project was established very soon after related and extensive threads in both this and the Archaeology forum.

Ipso

What's the chance that these Roman sites are the result of Romanised Britons in Ireland and not Romans themselves?

slowburner

Ipso wrote: »

What's the chance that these Roman sites are the result of Romanised Britons in Ireland and not Romans themselves?

Quite high, according to conventional thinking. Ongoing isotope analysis might just be about to seriously challenge this.

Poor Uncle Tom

slowburner wrote: »

There is an ongoing re-evaluation of Romano-Irish sites and artefacts previously overlooked or dismissed as not Roman.
There was very definitely an established view that Ireland was perpheral to Roman requirements. That view is now under scrutiny.
The work is being carried out under the auspices of the Later Iron Age and Roman Ireland project (LIARI) which is part of the Discovery Programme.
The conclusions and evidence are soon due for publication.
Coincidentally (?) the LIARI project was established very soon after related and extensive threads in both this and the Archaeology forum.

http://www.discoveryprogramme.ie/research/late-iron-age-roman-ireland/222.html

dave2pvd

Ipso wrote: »

What's the chance that these Roman sites are the result of Romanised Britons in Ireland and not Romans themselves?

You have to ask yourself, who or what constitutes a Roman?

dubhthach

dave2pvd wrote: »

You have to ask yourself, who or what constitutes a Roman?

Under Imperial law anyone who was a citizen.

dave2pvd

dubhthach wrote: »

Under Imperial law anyone who was a citizen.

Indeed. So therefore Mr Romanised Briton could be a fourth generation Flandrien mercenary formerly living in Cornwall, newly settled somewhere in Co. Waterford.

slowburner

dave2pvd wrote: »

Indeed. So therefore Mr Romanised Briton could be a fourth generation Flandrien mercenary formerly living in Cornwall, newly settled somewhere in Co. Waterford.

Kilkenny more likely