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Privately paid teacher question

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  • 02-09-2013 10:37am
    #1
    speedycow
    Registered Users Posts: 23 ✭


    Hi there,
    I've recently been employed privately by a school. Apart from differences in pensions etc. can anyone tell me whether I'm entitled to my increment (whenever it is due)? Even if I move to a different school later on? Also am I obliged to do S&S? And as a privately paid teacher would I get union representation?

    Sorry about all the questions, it's just that no one here seems to know! Thanks for any help you can give.


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    #2
    Inspector Coptoor
    Registered Users Posts: 6,818 ✭✭✭Inspector Coptoor


    You should get increments.
    Most schools pay the same rates as DES

    Get into whatever union most of the state paid staff are in.

    If you do S&S, you should get paid for it.


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    #3
    fall
    Registered Users Posts: 926 ✭✭✭fall


    Read the fine print on your contract. I know someone who was asked to sign a contract saying they would not be paid during their maternity leave.


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    #4
    joebloggs32
    Registered Users Posts: 1,596 ✭✭✭joebloggs32


    speedycow wrote: »
    Hi there,
    I've recently been employed privately by a school. Apart from differences in pensions etc. can anyone tell me whether I'm entitled to my increment (whenever it is due)? Even if I move to a different school later on? Also am I obliged to do S&S? And as a privately paid teacher would I get union representation?

    Sorry about all the questions, it's just that no one here seems to know! Thanks for any help you can give.

    I have received increments for this type of work


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    #5
    speedycow
    Registered Users Posts: 23 ✭speedycow


    Thanks for all the replies. I'll be checking my contract with a fine tooth comb!


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    #6
    RainyDay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭RainyDay


    Just curious - does this 'privately paid' thing happen much? Primary or Secondary? How are funds raised to cover the costs?


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    #7
    Inspector Coptoor
    Registered Users Posts: 6,818 ✭✭✭Inspector Coptoor


    RainyDay wrote: »
    Just curious - does this 'privately paid' thing happen much? Primary or Secondary? How are funds raised to cover the costs?

    More often in secondary.
    Usually in few paying schools


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    #8
    cmickdaly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 64 ✭✭cmickdaly


    work in a privately paid school for the last 7 years. My advice to a teacher who is offered such work is to only accept it if nothing else is available and keep a eye for other teaching posts in public dept of educ schools and leave.


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    #9
    Inspector Coptoor
    Registered Users Posts: 6,818 ✭✭✭Inspector Coptoor


    Why?
    What's the down side in your opinion.

    I'm in a private school.
    Pay is same as DES.
    Paying into a private pension & avoiding the pension levy.


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    #10
    man_no_plan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭man_no_plan


    Inspector Coptoor wrote: »
    Why?
    What's the down side in your opinion.

    I'm in a private school.
    Pay is same as DES.
    Paying into a private pension & avoiding the pension levy.

    That must be a gift! I suppose though that your pension is at the mercy of the markets. With all the levies etc in the public pension its not exactly defined benefit anymore either.

    Have they been paying increments to privately paid staff or does the freeze etc from the HRA apply?

    Can you move over to being state paid if a post comes up?

    I won't be moving myself but just curious...


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    #11
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    ya you can move over to dept. and carry your increments/experience. Presume you'd be under 'new pension scheme though (career average).

    I would presume if you are private paid then A/B posts are not open to you as they are dept funded (unless the school pays for it).

    The ASTI had negotiated pay parity for private paid (and most fee paying schools honoured it) although now (after a certain court ruling) schools can pay what they like as its considered a private arrangement! Basically, check your contract or ask before signing anything. Ive heard / read some fairly shocking stories about how fee paying schools treated the privately paid staff... despite same qualifications/experience/subject as dept. paid colleague in classroom next door.

    TUI won't let any private paid teacher join their union either.

    Talk about ripping up labour laws and unfair treatment!


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    #12
    cmickdaly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 64 ✭✭cmickdaly


    Simple really, work as a privately paid teacher, no permanent job


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    #13
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    cmickdaly wrote: »
    Simple really, work as a privately paid teacher, no permanent job

    CID is still possible!


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    #14
    Inspector Coptoor
    Registered Users Posts: 6,818 ✭✭✭Inspector Coptoor


    man_no_plan wrote: »
    That must be a gift! I suppose though that your pension is at the mercy of the markets. With all the levies etc in the public pension its not exactly defined benefit anymore either.

    Have they been paying increments to privately paid staff or does the freeze etc from the HRA apply?

    Can you move over to being state paid if a post comes up?

    I won't be moving myself but just curious...

    They pay the exact same as the DES, including the freeze on increments, and yes, as soon as a teacher retires or leaves, and a DES post comes up, the next person on the list gets transferred to DES pay.

    Permanent job isn't a thing anymore really, I have a CID as of end of May.
    As its a privately paid CID, i can't be redeployed anywhere


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    #15
    Daisy 55
    Registered Users Posts: 507 ✭✭✭Daisy 55


    If you do S&S, you should get paid for it.[/QUOTE]

    Why paid for S&S?


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    #16
    Inspector Coptoor
    Registered Users Posts: 6,818 ✭✭✭Inspector Coptoor


    Daisy 55 wrote: »
    If you do S&S, you should get paid for it.

    Why paid for S&S?[/QUOTE]

    The post you are quoting from was made in 2013 before S&C payments were cut


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    #17
    Daisy 55
    Registered Users Posts: 507 ✭✭✭Daisy 55


    Ah! Was wondering! Thanks for that.


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    #18
    cmickdaly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 64 ✭✭cmickdaly


    Gebgbegb wrote: »
    CID is still possible!

    is it? I think it is down to the discretion of the school as they are a private employer. In many cases they will plead inability to sustain it and stop offering one.


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    #19
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    cmickdaly wrote: »
    is it? I think it is down to the discretion of the school as they are a private employer. In many cases they will plead inability to sustain it and stop offering one.

    CID is not specific to teaching. It's employment legislation and covers all sorts of employment. Yes there are schools who try to get out of awarding them for privately paid positions because it's funded by whatever money the school take in. In that sense it's in the school's interests to move the privately paid teacher over to DES if a position becomes available.


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    #20
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    ya the privately paid CID doesnt encompass any of the new dept. circulars on teacher cid's. (but of course if your contract says parity of terms and conditions with Dept. teacher then it would be open to interpretation (or your solicitor's interpretation :( ).

    Be carefull though theres a few fee paying schools that dont do the 'parity with the dept.' line, some wound up in court cases and won the right to treat workers in the exact same roles differently! So... read your contract, or be quite specific in asking during an interview.


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    #21
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    cmickdaly wrote: »
    is it? I think it is down to the discretion of the school as they are a private employer. In many cases they will plead inability to sustain it and stop offering one.

    As rainbow trout said its under different legislation, but theyd still have to offer 'reasonable grounds' which means if they give you the heave ho they can't offer someone else the same job subsequently.. although if the next person was dept. paid then the school could claim that because they dont have to pay the new teacher then they are just undertaking cutbacks like any other business needs to.

    Its very messy... just go for dept. paid and hold on for dear life.


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    #22
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Inspector Coptoor wrote: »
    They pay the exact same as the DES, including the freeze on increments, and yes, as soon as a teacher retires or leaves, and a DES post comes up, the next person on the list gets transferred to DES pay.

    ....

    Hmmm never thought of that. So essentially you are saying seniority applies (even if say a dept. french teacher retired and you were a privately paid english teacher). I must start some gentle nudging with the senior teachers tomorrow.


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    #23
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Gebgbegb wrote: »
    Hmmm never thought of that. So essentially you are saying seniority applies (even if say a dept. french teacher retired and you were a privately paid english teacher). I must start some gentle nudging with the senior teachers tomorrow.

    I haven't worked as a privately paid teacher, but I have several friends who have and I wouldn't agree with IC's point totally. A school might re-jig timetables to allow the most senior privately paid teacher the next available vacancy when a DES position becomes available, but I know it doesn't happen everywhere.

    A friend of mine was covering a secondment for years in a school with privately paid teachers. When all the cuts came, the teacher returned to their post. He was offered a privately paid position teaching maths for the following year (he's a physics teacher). He accepted it on the basis that it was only for one year. He is not qualified in maths. The following yeara maths teacher retired, and he was not offered the position. It went to a qualified teacher from outside(as it should).

    I think it depends on a number of factors. A large school will have more room to shift around subjects on teachers timetables, a smaller school won't. It may also come down to a school wanting to keep the privately paid teacher and offering them more security by offering them the DES job. They also have the protection of 'not qualified in that subject' if they don't have to move them over.


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    #24
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,299 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/school-entitled-to-pay-teachers-less-than-state-rate-high-court-rules-26665214.html

    http://www.staredecisishibernia.com/2011/05/26/catholic-university-school-v-dooley-employment-contracts-of-privately-funded-part-time-teachers/

    Note that there is nothing to stop you getting paid more than DES rates.
    speedycow wrote: »
    I've recently been employed privately by a school. Apart from differences in pensions etc. can anyone tell me whether I'm entitled to my increment (whenever it is due)?
    You are only entitled to what is in the contract.
    Even if I move to a different school later on?
    You are only entitled to what is in the contract. The new job will depend on the contract there.
    Also am I obliged to do S&S?
    What does the contract say?
    And as a privately paid teacher would I get union representation?
    Presuming the contract doesn't put restrictions in place (e.g. you must / can only join union X) and if the union is willing to accept you.
    fall wrote: »
    I know someone who was asked to sign a contract saying they would not be paid during their maternity leave.
    There is no automatic entitlement to maternity pay.
    Inspector Coptoor wrote: »
    I'm in a private school. Pay is same as DES.
    But the OP's situation will depend on their contract.
    man_no_plan wrote: »
    With all the levies etc in the public pension its not exactly defined benefit anymore either.
    What's this "levies etc" bit?

    Do you understand what "defined benefit" / "defined contribution" pensions are?
    Have they been paying increments to privately paid staff
    Read the contract.
    Gebgbegb wrote: »
    Talk about ripping up labour laws and unfair treatment!
    What laws are being ripped up?
    cmickdaly wrote: »
    Simple really, work as a privately paid teacher, no permanent job
    It's just as permanent as any other job. It just isn't state-guaranteed.
    Inspector Coptoor wrote: »
    They pay the exact same as the DES, including the freeze on increments, and yes, as soon as a teacher retires or leaves, and a DES post comes up, the next person on the list gets transferred to DES pay.
    In the OP's case, this will all depnd ont he contract.
    As its a privately paid CID, i can't be redeployed anywhere
    You can be redeployed. Just not in the same way as a DES employee. If the school burned down in the morning, would you refuse to work in your employer's new premises?
    Gebgbegb wrote: »
    Be carefull though theres a few fee paying schools that dont do the 'parity with the dept.' line, some wound up in court cases and won the right to treat workers in the exact same roles differently!
    Similar roles, different employer, different contract, different terms & conditions, different pay.
    Gebgbegb wrote: »
    Hmmm never thought of that. So essentially you are saying seniority applies (even if say a dept. french teacher retired and you were a privately paid english teacher). I must start some gentle nudging with the senior teachers tomorrow.
    Ii would imagine seniority applies within positions. Not much use in a school have three French teachers and no English teachers.


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    #25
    cmickdaly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 64 ✭✭cmickdaly


    Gebgbegb wrote: »
    As rainbow trout said its under different legislation, but theyd still have to offer 'reasonable grounds' which means if they give you the heave ho they can't offer someone else the same job subsequently.. although if the next person was dept. paid then the school could claim that because they dont have to pay the new teacher then they are just undertaking cutbacks like any other business needs to.

    Its very messy... just go for dept. paid and hold on for dear life.

    permanent job as a DES teacher is the only game in town. working as a privately paid teacher you are at the mercy of your employer.


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    #26
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    cmickdaly wrote: »
    permanent job as a DES teacher is the only game in town. working as a privately paid teacher you are at the mercy of your employer.

    in saying all that though, there are schools that are straight down the line no messin. But I have heard of a few that once the management changed then the privately paid teacher was treated like a disposable item and not as an equal to dept. paid teachers


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