Discriminative employment strategies

glut22

Hi all!

Just a quick one, my sister did an interview a few days ago for a sales assistant job in Penneys - AND - one of the questions she was required to answer (in a written questionnaire thing) was one that asked her to state her religion. is this legal? She's not offended herself but I see this as quite discriminative, thoughts?

Tabitharose

I filled in an application form for a certain jewellery chain a number of years ago, and the same question was on it, I didn't fill it in, when asked in the interview, said I didn't think it was relevant to the job or any of their business (but in the nicest possible way) and I was offered the job anyway. I don't like it as a question but I don't know if there's any legal reason why they can't ask.

cloudatlas

The thinking behind this is they are aware of your status and stops them discriminating against workers, religious holidays etc..

Mrs OBumble

AFAIK, it's legal to ask, but it's not legal to discriminate on the basis of the answer.

There are some people who believe that asking is illegal, but I'm not convinced that it's that clear cut.

For some UK companies that operate here, they use the same system / forms for all stores in the island of Ireland, and so ask the question because there are reasons for it being asked in the North.

longhalloween

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

For some UK companies that operate here, they use the same system / forms for all stores in the island of Ireland, and so ask the question because there are reasons for it being asked in the North.

Nearly all Northern jobs I've applied for have asked my religion.

micosoft

longhalloween wrote: »

Nearly all Northern jobs I've applied for have asked my religion.

It's actually legally required of all employers to note religion and report on this in Northern Ireland. It's unusual to do it down south.

Irish_Elect_Eng

Most companies do not ask for a very simple reason.

If they are not aware of a candidates religion a failed candidate cannot then later accuse them of discriminating on the grounds of religion.

CruelCoin

glut22 wrote: »

Hi all!

Just a quick one, my sister did an interview a few days ago for a sales assistant job in Penneys - AND - one of the questions she was required to answer (in a written questionnaire thing) was one that asked her to state her religion. is this legal? She's not offended herself but I see this as quite discriminative, thoughts?

It's intrusive, not discriminative.

Until such time as they use that info against her it's not discriminatory.

Ray Palmer

I really think any company that isn't aware of the potential issues of ask certain questions is probably lax elsewhere.

I would always weigh the 7 discrimination issues equally. If you think it is alright to ask a question about one then you should compare it to one of the others. If that doesn't seem right then it isn't right.

Would you ask what somebodies sexual orientation is and think it is fine then asking religion is fine. I don't think it is ok to ask somebodies sexual orientation in an interview or form for a job.

Age and date of birth are the minor exception that can be asked for your employee file and tax reasons. Not OK to ask in an interview.

allibastor

Ray Palmer wrote: »

I really think any company that isn't aware of the potential issues of ask certain questions is probably lax elsewhere.

I would always weigh the 7 discrimination issues equally. If you think it is alright to ask a question about one then you should compare it to one of the others. If that doesn't seem right then it isn't right.

Would you ask what somebodies sexual orientation is and think it is fine then asking religion is fine. I don't think it is ok to ask somebodies sexual orientation in an interview or form for a job.

Age and date of birth are the minor exception that can be asked for your employee file and tax reasons. Not OK to ask in an interview.

Being a homosexual wont stop you from doing your job, but having to work around, lets say Ramadan will. I ask religion in interviews because you need to be able to structure a contract to include any requirements that may happen. Once had a guy who was one of those christian religions that dont allow blood transfers or anything like that, working on a building site I need to know this incase he got hurt and needed hospitalisation.

Ray Palmer

allibastor wrote: »

Being a homosexual wont stop you from doing your job, but having to work around, lets say Ramadan will. I ask religion in interviews because you need to be able to structure a contract to include any requirements that may happen. Once had a guy who was one of those christian religions that dont allow blood transfers or anything like that, working on a building site I need to know this incase he got hurt and needed hospitalisation.

You don't need to know when hiring. You may need to know when hired or doing up a contract. Big difference. You open yourself up to being sued by asking the question.

allibastor

Ray Palmer wrote: »

You don't need to know when hiring. You may need to know when hired or doing up a contract. Big difference. You open yourself up to being sued by asking the question.

You do if it will have ramifications or adjustments need to be made when you make the hire. Have you ever hired a muslim person and then found that they will need extra days for religious events, or need a work around to accomodate them?


It is not illegal to ask, and I have never thought less of someone for not answering, but sometimes it helps to have all the facts. I also think that if the person is right for the role, small adjustments are acceptable.

Ray Palmer

allibastor wrote: »

You do if it will have ramifications or adjustments need to be made when you make the hire. Have you ever hired a muslim person and then found that they will need extra days for religious events, or need a work around to accomodate them?


It is not illegal to ask, and I have never thought less of someone for not answering, but sometimes it helps to have all the facts. I also think that if the person is right for the role, small adjustments are acceptable.

You think it is not illegal. Others are of a different opinion. It is a risk you are willing to take but legal advice is not to ask. You want to risk your business over a question you don't need to know as you have no problem accommodating somebody I don't see the point.

You don't give them extra days off you let them take holiday days. You aren't actually obliged to accommodate religious beliefs AFAIK but open to correction. If you are giving anybody additional days off for religious reasons you are discriminating against those not of the religion.

The same way you are willing to cater for people if they are right for the role others will not be willing and therefore discriminatory. If it effects your decision in ANY way it is discrimination. Shaky ground asking this question and it doesn't really matter what you feel as it just takes one person to take offense.

Here is what a recruitment company says and they will tend to know more about the legal issues of employment than somebody who isn't in the business.
http://www.cpl.ie/content/EqualityAtInterview/

allibastor

Ray Palmer wrote: »

You think it is not illegal. Others are of a different opinion. It is a risk you are willing to take but legal advice is not to ask. You want to risk your business over a question you don't need to know as you have no problem accommodating somebody I don't see the point.

You don't give them extra days off you let them take holiday days. You aren't actually obliged to accommodate religious beliefs AFAIK but open to correction. If you are giving anybody additional days off for religious reasons you are discriminating against those not of the religion.

The same way you are willing to cater for people if they are right for the role others will not be willing and therefore discriminatory. If it effects your decision in ANY way it is discrimination. Shaky ground asking this question and it doesn't really matter what you feel as it just takes one person to take offense.

Here is what a recruitment company says and they will tend to know more about the legal issues of employment than somebody who isn't in the business.
http://www.cpl.ie/content/EqualityAtInterview/

I am in the business Ray, Though thanks for that. We akso had our pre-employement questionaire done by one of the most reputable HR consultancy and employement firms in Ireland. The only way the question is Illegal is if you use it as a deciding factor on a candidates employment, or not as the case may be. it is the same as asking if someone has a bad back in my opinion, certain thigns you need to know and certain thigns you dont. Sometimes it is something you need to know if it will have an impact on thier employment and what they can or cant do.

Ray Palmer

allibastor wrote: »

I am in the business Ray, Though thanks for that. We akso had our pre-employement questionaire done by one of the most reputable HR consultancy and employement firms in Ireland. The only way the question is Illegal is if you use it as a deciding factor on a candidates employment, or not as the case may be. it is the same as asking if someone has a bad back in my opinion, certain thigns you need to know and certain thigns you dont. Sometimes it is something you need to know if it will have an impact on thier employment and what they can or cant do.

Or if somebody feels it had an influence and you have to go through the process of proving it didn't. A risk you are willing to take for what seems to have no impact on whether you will hire the person. Not seeing what you gain from this.

You can't ask if somebody has a bad back either or any other medical condition. It falls under disability. You can ask if they will be physically capable.

I still haven't heard a single thing that effects peoples' employment of what somebody can and can't do by knowing their religion.

tatli_lokma

If it is not a deciding factor, why ask it? surely your questions are akin to asking a woman of childbearing age if she plans on having children? The reason it is similar is because if she says yes, then you know at some point you will have to make accomodate her. In my mind it is no different to asking if someone is of a certain religion. I also would like to know what makes you an expert on world religions so that you know the ins and outs of each one and what potentially might arise due to someone being a member? Being muslim does not automatically mean that you observe Ramadan. Equally, I don't see how a staff member being a Jehovahs witness (not accepting blood transfusions) is any of your concern? If they have an accident they have an accident - the choice they make at the hospital as to whether or not they accept blood transfusions should be completely irrelevant to you. Its not like you will be administering a blood transfusion on site! :rolleyes:

Just for the record, my husband is a Muslim. Some years he observes Ramadan, others he doesn't. He has never requested that accommodations be made to allow him to observe the fast. The whole point of Ramadan is that you get on with your daily life whilst fasting - if you are getting special allowances then it kind of negates some of the spirit of the fast. I would even say that on many occasions his employer didn't even know he was fasting. The only reason I can see why someone might advise a supervisor is for H&S just incase they feel unwell or faint whilst fasting.

Would you ask a very thin person if they are anorexic? Because if they were they would be 'fasting' on a regular basis? would you make accommodations or allowances for them? Would you ask a christian if they like to go to GAA matches? Because if they do, maybe, just maybe they might come to work the odd monday with a hangover which you will need to "accommodate".

Your ignorance is quite disturbing really, especially when you consider that you are using such information to decide who to hire. You can claim it makes no difference, but I absolutely don't believe you, because if it didn't matter either way, why would you even ask? You are hiding it behind an excuse that knowing means you can "accommodate" them in a positive way, but that defence doesn't make sense. You hire someone based upon their experience and skills and performance in an interview. If you decide to hire them, you can then ask about their personal situation (up to a point) in case you need to provide facilities or something, but generally it is none of your business end of story.

allibastor

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Or if somebody feels it had an influence and you have to go through the process of proving it didn't. A risk you are willing to take for what seems to have no impact on whether you will hire the person. Not seeing what you gain from this.

You can't ask if somebody has a bad back either or any other medical condition. It falls under disability. You can ask if they will be physically capable.

I still haven't heard a single thing that effects peoples' employment of what somebody can and can't do by knowing their religion.

It is not a big deal if someone doesnt answer it, but also rpoving you didnt hire someone on the grounds of religion is next to impossible. All you have to do is show on CV of a potential candidate and it puts the whole issue out of the window.

tatli_lokma

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Or if somebody feels it had an influence and you have to go through the process of proving it didn't. A risk you are willing to take for what seems to have no impact on whether you will hire the person. Not seeing what you gain from this.

Too right - if my husband was asked about his religion and then it turned out he didn't get the job, I would be 100% encouraging him to report the company for even asking. If someone asked me about personal beliefs or details irrelevant to the role I would report them, too right.

tatli_lokma

allibastor wrote: »

All you have to do is show on CV of a potential candidate and it puts the whole issue out of the window.

No it doesn't - I think you have just been lucky. You could end up with serious repercussions if you got reported. The very fact of asking the question is enough. The response would be, if it didn't matter and they could chose not to answer, then why ask?

allibastor

tatli_lokma wrote: »

If it is not a deciding factor, why ask it? surely your questions are akin to asking a woman of childbearing age if she plans on having children? The reason it is similar is because if she says yes, then you know at some point you will have to make accomodate her. In my mind it is no different to asking if someone is of a certain religion. I also would like to know what makes you an expert on world religions so that you know the ins and outs of each one and what potentially might arise due to someone being a member? Being muslim does not automatically mean that you observe Ramadan. Equally, I don't see how a staff member being a Jehovahs witness (not accepting blood transfusions) is any of your concern? If they have an accident they have an accident - the choice they make at the hospital as to whether or not they accept blood transfusions should be completely irrelevant to you. Its not like you will be administering a blood transfusion on site! :rolleyes:

Just for the record, my husband is a Muslim. Some years he observes Ramadan, others he doesn't. He has never requested that accommodations be made to allow him to observe the fast. The whole point of Ramadan is that you get on with your daily life whilst fasting - if you are getting special allowances then it kind of negates some of the spirit of the fast. I would even say that on many occasions his employer didn't even know he was fasting. The only reason I can see why someone might advise a supervisor is for H&S just incase they feel unwell or faint whilst fasting.

Would you ask a very thin person if they are anorexic? Because if they were they would be 'fasting' on a regular basis? would you make accommodations or allowances for them? Would you ask a christian if they like to go to GAA matches? Because if they do, maybe, just maybe they might come to work the odd monday with a hangover which you will need to "accommodate".

Your ignorance is quite disturbing really, especially when you consider that you are using such information to decide who to hire. You can claim it makes no difference, but I absolutely don't believe you, because if it didn't matter either way, why would you even ask? You are hiding it behind an excuse that knowing means you can "accommodate" them in a positive way, but that defence doesn't make sense. You hire someone based upon their experience and skills and performance in an interview. If you decide to hire them, you can then ask about their personal situation (up to a point) in case you need to provide facilities or something, but generally it is none of your business end of story.

Are you taking the piss with this comment. Ignorance is not a factor, nor is it made a deciding factor. Sometimes, not all the time, accomodations need to be made. As you yourself just pointed out, you could feel sick or faint at work especially if you are working in a role which requires a good deal of exersion.
Any good employer will take note of what and why affects on employees happen, and if it is over a religious thing, should move to be supportive and accomodating.

I Have also said its not a deciding factor in a job, can you read back to the posts before making comments please. It is the same in any interview where the interviewer will take notes, they note things like sex, age, physical fitness etc.

Seriously, be in the employer chair for once and see what you coem out with.

Ray Palmer

allibastor wrote: »

It is not a big deal if someone doesnt answer it, but also rpoving you didnt hire someone on the grounds of religion is next to impossible. All you have to do is show on CV of a potential candidate and it puts the whole issue out of the window.

You would have to prove it didn't. A pile of CVs won't do that and proving why you need to ask the question will be tricky. You can't tell us a valid reason so how do you think you are going to prove that to an equality tribunal?

All they have to do is point to the fact you have no valid reason to ask the question in the first place. You really don't seem to know much on the subject given you are in the business. Having used an example of another thing you can't ask as validation. :eek:

tatli_lokma

allibastor wrote: »

Are you taking the piss with this comment. Ignorance is not a factor, nor is it made a deciding factor. Sometimes, not all the time, accomodations need to be made. As you yourself just pointed out, you could feel sick or faint at work especially if you are working in a role which requires a good deal of exersion.
Any good employer will take note of what and why affects on employees happen, and if it is over a religious thing, should move to be supportive and accomodating.

I Have also said its not a deciding factor in a job, can you read back to the posts before making comments please. It is the same in any interview where the interviewer will take notes, they note things like sex, age, physical fitness etc.

Seriously, be in the employer chair for once and see what you coem out with.

Haha your attempt to defend yourself is laughable.
A good employer will of course make note of things that their employee makes them aware of which they might need assistance or support with. The point is, at interview you are most definitely NOT their employer yet. You are a potential employer and they are a potential employee. By asking the questions you are asking you are allowing factors which are irrelevant to the SELECTION process to colour judgement. You can claim that is not the case all you want, but clearly it is affecting your judgement. Once you ask those questions you cannot unask them - you have the answer. The bell cannot be unrung.

Once you have actually selected someone based upon relevant criteria such as skills and experience, you can then get to know them and if you feel you would like to positively discriminate in their favour based on their personal beliefs, physical appearance then work away. You might well still get in trouble for it, positive though the discrimination is, as by accommodating some you will be excluding others.

For the record, I am sitting in the employer chair - I interview on a regular basis and have done for most of my working life. And I would never make a note of someones physical fitness! The closest I would get to that is to note if they were dressed appropriately - for eg if someone turned up for a formal interview in a tracksuit I might note that they were underdressed for the interview. Being an experienced interviewer I also am very aware of what I can and can't use as a deciding factor, and even moreso I am very very careful what I write on a CV or what notes I take during interview. Under the data protection act an applicant can ask to see your notes on them - if someone did this to you I can only imagine what the outcome would be. You also should be keeping CVs and interview notes for at least a year. But somehow I doubt this is something that even concerns you.

But trust me, one day your choice of questions at interview will come back to bite you in the arse.

allibastor

tatli_lokma wrote: »

Haha your attempt to defend yourself is laughable.
A good employer will of course make note of things that their employee makes them aware of which they might need assistance or support with. The point is, at interview you are most definitely NOT their employer yet. You are a potential employer and they are a potential employee. By asking the questions you are asking you are allowing factors which are irrelevant to the SELECTION process to colour judgement. You can claim that is not the case all you want, but clearly it is affecting your judgement. Once you ask those questions you cannot unask them - you have the answer. The bell cannot be unrung.

Once you have actually selected someone based upon relevant criteria such as skills and experience, you can then get to know them and if you feel you would like to positively discriminate in their favour based on their personal beliefs, physical appearance then work away. You might well still get in trouble for it, positive though the discrimination is, as by accommodating some you will be excluding others.

For the record, I am sitting in the employer chair - I interview on a regular basis and have done for most of my working life. And I would never make a note of someones physical fitness! The closest I would get to that is to note if they were dressed appropriately - for eg if someone turned up for a formal interview in a tracksuit I might note that they were underdressed for the interview. Being an experienced interviewer I also am very aware of what I can and can't use as a deciding factor, and even moreso I am very very careful what I write on a CV or what notes I take during interview. Under the data protection act an applicant can ask to see your notes on them - if someone did this to you I can only imagine what the outcome would be. You also should be keeping CVs and interview notes for at least a year. But somehow I doubt this is something that even concerns you.

But trust me, one day your choice of questions at interview will come back to bite you in the arse.

You attempt to try and make judgements on what I use as deciding factors is also laughable. We have a form which we use as a standard questionaire for ALL potential candiaites. We would prefer to have too much information rather than too little.

I would like to point out that at interview stage, any employer will use thier god given most judgemental instruments to screen applicants, thier own eyes. I would prefer if a candidiates gave me as much information as possible as it makes any issues down the road easier. if they dont wish to give certain information than that is fine also. I am not thier parents, nor am I any other important figure to them, I am a prospective employer. Unless the question is Illegal to ask, which it is not, then i shall ask it. As said before, religion does not have a deciding factor for me personally in if someone gets the job or not. I would just like to know if someone can do the bloody thing or not. I still ask the quesiton anyway

allibastor

tatli_lokma wrote: »

Haha your attempt to defend yourself is laughable.
A good employer will of course make note of things that their employee makes them aware of which they might need assistance or support with. The point is, at interview you are most definitely NOT their employer yet. You are a potential employer and they are a potential employee. By asking the questions you are asking you are allowing factors which are irrelevant to the SELECTION process to colour judgement. You can claim that is not the case all you want, but clearly it is affecting your judgement. Once you ask those questions you cannot unask them - you have the answer. The bell cannot be unrung.

Once you have actually selected someone based upon relevant criteria such as skills and experience, you can then get to know them and if you feel you would like to positively discriminate in their favour based on their personal beliefs, physical appearance then work away. You might well still get in trouble for it, positive though the discrimination is, as by accommodating some you will be excluding others.

For the record, I am sitting in the employer chair - I interview on a regular basis and have done for most of my working life. And I would never make a note of someones physical fitness! The closest I would get to that is to note if they were dressed appropriately - for eg if someone turned up for a formal interview in a tracksuit I might note that they were underdressed for the interview. Being an experienced interviewer I also am very aware of what I can and can't use as a deciding factor, and even moreso I am very very careful what I write on a CV or what notes I take during interview. Under the data protection act an applicant can ask to see your notes on them - if someone did this to you I can only imagine what the outcome would be. You also should be keeping CVs and interview notes for at least a year. But somehow I doubt this is something that even concerns you.

But trust me, one day your choice of questions at interview will come back to bite you in the arse.

Do you work with me by the way, do you know anything about how I operate or how I do things. I keep all interview notes correct and up to date. I have had people who have been grosly overweight go for jobs which require physical fitness or will require a good deal of standing. I have not hired them on this fact because I think they are not suitable for the role.

If everyone was not given deciding factors in CV screening they would all go for an interview. Whether you like to admit it or not, you will judge someone the moment they walk into the room. The old adage in recruitment is you will know within 1 min if someone is right for the role or not.

tatli_lokma

You are unbelieveable.

Of course you make judgements, no one is denying that, we are all human and it can't avoided. But expressly asking questions which are not relevant is making your personal private judgement public which is a stupid thing to do as the minute you voice your question you are leaving yourself open to reprisal for that judgement.

allibastor wrote:

religion does not have a deciding factor for me personally in if someone gets the job or not. I would just like to know if someone can do the bloody thing or not. I still ask the quesiton anyway

given this is the logic then there is no hope for you seeing the error of your ways. If the answer to the question is irrelevant then you are just being plain nosey. This might not be considered illegal by you but I would wager that an ET would disagree. At the very least it is unprofessional.

As for your old adage - you might need to move into the moderm world and ignore 'old adages'. In my experience for every person you judge in the 1st minute as unsuitable, you will interview another who proves you wrong. That is the point of an interview if you are doing it right. If you were to go with your view, then why interview at all? why not get them all to just line up, eyeball them, and then make a decision?

Can I ask aslo, do you ask white people what their religion is??? Or is it only non-white? Because I find it hard to believe that you are asking every caucasian what their religious beliefs are. And if you are asking every person what their religion is, whilst you are at least being consistent, you are making yourself look like a tool.

Ray Palmer

allibastor wrote: »

You attempt to try and make judgements on what I use as deciding factors is also laughable. We have a form which we use as a standard questionaire for ALL potential candiaites. We would prefer to have too much information rather than too little.

I would like to point out that at interview stage, any employer will use thier god given most judgemental instruments to screen applicants, thier own eyes. I would prefer if a candidiates gave me as much information as possible as it makes any issues down the road easier. if they dont wish to give certain information than that is fine also. I am not thier parents, nor am I any other important figure to them, I am a prospective employer. Unless the question is Illegal to ask, which it is not, then i shall ask it. As said before, religion does not have a deciding factor for me personally in if someone gets the job or not. I would just like to know if someone can do the bloody thing or not. I still ask the quesiton anyway

The questions are considered illegal by many. You can't really say they aren't illegal to ask it is just your non legal opinion they are not. The fact it is it is certainly questionable if they are illegal or not. You have made the choice that you don't consider it illegal. Have you ever asked a lawyer? I suggest you do because there advice will be don't ask. Not sure why if you are in the business you would hire another company to do your questionnaires and rely on them doing legal checks.

You still have failed to give a reason for asking the question in an interview. Your claims of why it is relevant on an employee is questionable anyway. Saying they don't have to answer isn't really good enough.

Perception is a huge part of discrimination and no proof require.

December2012

Why would an employer need to know if an employee or prospective employee would refuse a blood transfusion?

allibastor

tatli_lokma wrote: »

You are unbelieveable.

Of course you make judgements, no one is denying that, we are all human and it can't avoided. But expressly asking questions which are not relevant is making your personal private judgement public which is a stupid thing to do as the minute you voice your question you are leaving yourself open to reprisal for that judgement.



given this is the logic then there is no hope for you seeing the error of your ways. If the answer to the question is irrelevant then you are just being plain nosey. This might not be considered illegal by you but I would wager that an ET would disagree. At the very least it is unprofessional.

As for your old adage - you might need to move into the moderm world and ignore 'old adages'. In my experience for every person you judge in the 1st minute as unsuitable, you will interview another who proves you wrong. That is the point of an interview if you are doing it right. If you were to go with your view, then why interview at all? why not get them all to just line up, eyeball them, and then make a decision?

Can I ask aslo, do you ask white people what their religion is??? Or is it only non-white? Because I find it hard to believe that you are asking every caucasian what their religious beliefs are. And if you are asking every person what their religion is, whilst you are at least being consistent, you are making yourself look like a tool.

I do actually ask everyone.

I can give you an example of a project I worked with before that required a lot of weekend work. Many jewish people who were on the project would not work Saturday as it is thier Sabbath, but would do Sunday. A few lads from the Roman Chatholic side would not work Sunday. By knowing this and who worshiped in what, We were able to organise a plan of attack for a project.

As said, I generally dont care who worships what, i am agnostic myself, but I still would ask the question as we have had expert advice and consultation on this matter and this is the form I work with. If people feel uncomfortable with this they can choose not to answer the question and there has never been any hard feeling. TBH in my opinion I could not give a rats behind if they answer Jedi, I dont really care.

And, in response to your other quesiton, I will generally have an idea if i want the person or not based on CV and research. I will also be put off by things such as lazy or un-interested approach to the interview, if they are late for no good reason. If as you said, they wear a tracksuit in, personal Hygeine, as in do they reek of BO when going for an interview etc.

allibastor

December2012 wrote: »

Why would an employer need to know if an employee or prospective employee would refuse a blood transfusion?

In case there is ever an accident and next of kin cant be contacted. Generally.

allibastor

Ray Palmer wrote: »

The questions are considered illegal by many. You can't really say they aren't illegal to ask it is just your non legal opinion they are not. The fact it is it is certainly questionable if they are illegal or not. You have made the choice that you don't consider it illegal. Have you ever asked a lawyer? I suggest you do because there advice will be don't ask. Not sure why if you are in the business you would hire another company to do your questionnaires and rely on them doing legal checks.

You still have failed to give a reason for asking the question in an interview. Your claims of why it is relevant on an employee is questionable anyway. Saying they don't have to answer isn't really good enough.

Perception is a huge part of discrimination and no proof require.

As stated before Ray, we have had this form, and indeed all our employement matters doen by a very reputable HR and employement firm. They specialise in this and not much else. They have a legal Dept. in house who handles not just ours, but many other smaller companies employement issues.

I have also answered why i ask these question, and that to me it does not really matter what the answer is. I dont really know what more you expect.

I also think you are sidlining what the OP asked, some companies do ask and some do not. If people dont like the question they have a few choices, either go to another company, dont answer, or complain. I have had a guy who did just that before, said I didnt employ him because he was a sing/sheik, the guys with the turbins. When asked about it I said other candidiates had more skills relevent to the role, was able to show this with interview notes and CV's. Also his general interview was very poorly rehearsed and questions which were asked didnt get well thought out answers.

Ray Palmer

allibastor wrote: »

I do actually ask everyone.

I can give you an example of a project I worked with before that required a lot of weekend work. Many jewish people who were on the project would not work Saturday as it is thier Sabbath, but would do Sunday. A few lads from the Roman Chatholic side would not work Sunday. By knowing this and who worshiped in what, We were able to organise a plan of attack for a project.
.

Again you don't need to know this in an interview. Are you working in Ireland? The Jewish community is tiny here so to have "many" working on a building site would be extremely odd verging on unbelievable. Your descriptions of what you do is beginning to sound very questionable.

You do know that studies show interviews are the worst way to select employees mainly due to that 1 minute decision making?

allibastor

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Again you don't need to know this in an interview. Are you working in Ireland? The Jewish community is tiny here so to have "many" working on a building site would be extremely odd verging on unbelievable. Your descriptions of what you do is beginning to sound very questionable.

You do know that studies show interviews are the worst way to select employees mainly due to that 1 minute decision making?

No, Generally dont work in Ireland, many Europe and beyond. So i would actually ask what i do before trying to jump the gun.

No, generally as I have said, you will know if you want someone by around 80% before you bring them for interview. the interview is to gauge them as a person, you get the technical information by CV and by research into the person if possible. That being said, a few people have surprised me and not been what was expected.

Ray Palmer

allibastor wrote: »

As stated before Ray, we have had this form, and indeed all our employement matters doen by a very reputable HR and employement firm. They specialise in this and not much else. They have a legal Dept. in house who handles not just ours, but many other smaller companies employement issues.
.

You actually said you were the recruitment business. I suggested you would know more if you were in the recruitment business and you said you were . I strongly suggest you check with a lawyer if you are working in Ireland. You are aware we are talking about Irish laws.

tatli_lokma

TBH, I call Bullsh!t on this. I'm out...

allibastor

Ray Palmer wrote: »

You actually said you were the recruitment business. I suggested you would know more if you were in the recruitment business and you said you were . I strongly suggest you check with a lawyer if you are working in Ireland. You are aware we are talking about Irish laws.

We are an irish company so yes I am aware as much as I can be about Irish laws. A good portion of my role is recruitment of workers, but not my overall job. I also never said I worked exclusively in recruitment, hence why I have a company which I can turn to for these Situations.

As an irish company we send peopel anywhere in the world where work is.

Ray Palmer

allibastor wrote: »

No, Generally dont work in Ireland, many Europe and beyond. So i would actually ask what i do before trying to jump the gun.

No, generally as I have said, you will know if you want someone by around 80% before you bring them for interview. the interview is to gauge them as a person, you get the technical information by CV and by research into the person if possible. That being said, a few people have surprised me and not been what was expected.

So your knowledge on IRISH law would be what exactly? Basing decision on a CV is also highly questionable also. If you hire people on a regular basis I would expect you to be more aware of modern thinking on how to best select somebody.

An interview is the worst way to gauge people. I didn't jump the gun on anything. I realised you didn't work in Ireland yet are telling people how Irish laws work based on ... no idea what!

Doom

Jedi......

Ray Palmer

allibastor wrote: »

We are an irish company so yes I am aware as much as I can be about Irish laws. A good portion of my role is recruitment of workers, but not my overall job. I also never said I worked exclusively in recruitment, hence why I have a company which I can turn to for these Situations.

As an irish company we send peopel anywhere in the world where work is.

Not the recruitment business though like you stated. Strange you know so little on modern day practices and how the law is applied here. Not seeing any indication of a knowledge of Irish law. The company you use are they Irish? Did they check Irish law? Doesn't sound like you asked the company you use about Irish laws and you never said you did. Would you not question that now?

Using a stock template would certainly be common without any checking.

allibastor

Ray Palmer wrote: »

So your knowledge on IRISH law would be what exactly? Basing decision on a CV is also highly questionable also. If you hire people on a regular basis I would expect you to be more aware of modern thinking on how to best select somebody.

An interview is the worst way to gauge people. I didn't jump the gun on anything. I realised you didn't work in Ireland yet are telling people how Irish laws work based on ... no idea what!

My knowladge of Irish law is ok, but not overly extensive. Hence why we pay a company to handle this for us.

I dont get what you are saying by the CV, How else do you gauge if someone is suitable for the role you are offering. I look through previous work on the CV, make sure it matches, I then do research on the person via social media, previous work projects etc to see if they are who they claim to be and can do what they claim to do. I will also have spoken to them many times on the phone before I interview them. My business mgith be different to what you are looking at or expect to happen.


On the interview it is mainly to see how the person is, how they handle interview talking, how they appear to be. I have had many people turn up stinking of drink, Should I have hired them?

The unfortunate thing about hiring people is it is always a personal choice to a decision, based on what ever facts you have available and the impression you get from the person on the day. A CV is only ever a snapshot of thier enitre career, and an interview is only ever 30-60 mins of thier working life. But generally is someone comes in stinking of booze or looking like they could not do the job, that is the impression that sticks with me.

Right or wrong that is just how I work, If you have any golden nuggets of information for me, I would be willing to discuss a good financial return for you to share them with me, it would undoubtably make me better at my role.

allibastor

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Not the recruitment business though like you stated. Strange you know so little on modern day practices and how the law is applied here. Not seeing any indication of a knowledge of Irish law. The company you use are they Irish? Did they check Irish law? Doesn't sound like you asked the company you use about Irish laws and you never said you did. Would you not question that now?

Using a stock template would certainly be common without any checking.

As I have now about three times Ray, the company we use are Irish, The are based in Dublin. I can PM you the name and address of them.

They are a specialist HR and employment company who have knowladge and expereince of dealing with employment issues from Ireland, but also many other european countries. They have an in house legal dept who runs through what ever needs to be looked at in terms of legalitiy.

I really dont know what else to explain it to you.

Ray Palmer

allibastor wrote: »

My knowladge of Irish law is ok, but not overly extensive. Hence why we pay a company to handle this for us.

I dont get what you are saying by the CV, How else do you gauge if someone is suitable for the role you are offering. I look through previous work on the CV, make sure it matches, I then do research on the person via social media, previous work projects etc to see if they are who they claim to be and can do what they claim to do. I will also have spoken to them many times on the phone before I interview them. My business mgith be different to what you are looking at or expect to happen.


On the interview it is mainly to see how the person is, how they handle interview talking, how they appear to be. I have had many people turn up stinking of drink, Should I have hired them?

The unfortunate thing about hiring people is it is always a personal choice to a decision, based on what ever facts you have available and the impression you get from the person on the day. A CV is only ever a snapshot of thier enitre career, and an interview is only ever 30-60 mins of thier working life. But generally is someone comes in stinking of booze or looking like they could not do the job, that is the impression that sticks with me.

Right or wrong that is just how I work, If you have any golden nuggets of information for me, I would be willing to discuss a good financial return for you to share them with me, it would undoubtably make me better at my role.

Ask the company you use do they do interview training , psychometric tests and technical test. The price has massively dropped on those tests as they can be done online. CVs are full of lies and I would be surprised to see a truly honest CV hence it is such a bad gauge to make 80% of your decision on. Personal interviews only tell you if the person is good at interviews.


Are you going to check the legalities of the questions you ask? At best you can see it is a grey area at this point surely?

allibastor

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Ask the company you use do they do interview training , psychometric tests and technical test. The price has massively dropped on those tests as they can be done online. CVs are full of lies and I would be surprised to see a truly honest CV hence it is such a bad gauge to make 80% of your decision on. Personal interviews only tell you if the person is good at interviews.


Are you going to check the legalities of the questions you ask? At best you can see it is a grey area at this point surely?

Many of the roles I man are not of the heavy technical variety so the use of such tests would be lost on guys. I have used them in the past many times for some of the technical roles I have worked on so am familiar with the overall "new" american approach to recruitment, which by the way, does not take a good lot of factors into account, same as the leaving certificate.

As said, we have checked the legailities, it seems fine to date. I also know it is a grey area, hence why I have said all along I dont give a ****e one way or the other if someone answers of not, I have never held religion or lack of it against someone and dont see why it would affect thier job, to a large extent anyway. But as I pointed out, sometimes, In some cases, it does impact the role and the planning of certain projects and as such cant be fully ignored.

Put it to you this way, One of Ireland best rugby players wont play on a sunday due to his solid religious views, Tell Declan Kidney it is not a problem!!!!!

December2012

allibastor wrote: »

In case there is ever an accident and next of kin cant be contacted. Generally.

Nobody can be contacted by phone? Nobody?

allibastor

December2012 wrote: »

Nobody can be contacted by phone? Nobody?

It does happen sometimes. The next of kin might have a mobile number down and you might not be able to get through right away.

Mrs OBumble

Ok, enough.

The OP has had their answer: some companies in the South ask the reqligion question because it's compulsory in the North and they use the same forms/system for the island.

The legality of this is unclear - but we don't offer legal advice here anyway, so that's not a problem.

Closed.