Unpaid rental supplement

Jiggers77

I am a private landlord renting a house to a lady in receipt of rent supplement. She has been living in the property for two years. In June her supplement was reduced in line with the new limits. I received this payment as always on the last Thursday of July. This month however I have received no payment at all. It's usually paid directly into my account. I have contacted the tenant who is currently out of the country and she does not know what's going on. I rang the community welfare officer yesterday and he has told me to call back on Monday. He did say that the HSE contract was with the tenant and that if supplement was suspended they are not obliged to inform the landlord. Is it likely that supplement has been suspended or could there be another reason? Are the any other landlords out there who haven't received payment of rent supplement this month? I would greatly appreciate any advice!

handlemaster

Jiggers77 wrote: »

I am a private landlord renting a house to a lady in receipt of rent supplement. She has been living in the property for two years. In June her supplement was reduced in line with the new limits. I received this payment as always on the last Thursday of July. This month however I have received no payment at all. It's usually paid directly into my account. I have contacted the tenant who is currently out of the country and she does not know what's going on. I rang the community welfare officer yesterday and he has told me to call back on Monday. He did say that the HSE contract was with the tenant and that if supplement was suspended they are not obliged to inform the landlord. Is it likely that supplement has been suspended or could there be another reason? Are the any other landlords out there who haven't received payment of rent supplement this month? I would greatly appreciate any advice!

if the lady has been with you for two years and no hassle. id chill a little.Wait until monday call again. when is she back ? stay ontop of it but dont be an ass either to start off with.

Howjoe1

I thought the rent supplement had to be paid direct to the tenant and not the landlord. I would have thought it's illegal to be paid direct to the Landlord's bank account? ..but I stand open to correction on that point.


The criteria for being entitled to the rent supplement is reviewed (annually?) and is it possibly she is no longer entitled to it? best to wait and see next week.

Is the tenant out of the country on a 1/2 holoday or does she spend long periods abroad? that might influence matter.

Jiggers77

Howjoe1 wrote: »

I thought the rent supplement had to be paid direct to the tenant and not the landlord. I would have thought it's illegal to be paid direct to the Landlord's bank account? ..but I stand open to correction on that point.


The criteria for being entitled to the rent supplement is reviewed (annually?) and is it possibly she is no longer entitled to it? best to wait and see next week.

Is the tenant out of the country on a 1/2 holoday or does she spend long periods abroad? that might influence matter.

The rent supplement has always been paid directly by HSE into my account ( I think this may have been at he request of tenant but I'm not sure ) but I do know that in a lot of cases the tenant receives it.

She doesn't spend long periods abroad as far as I'm aware it's just a holiday. When I mentioned this to her she seemed surprise so I don't think she is aware of any rent supplement suspension! Her circumstances have not changed either, she's not working and single mum with two dependents so it's unlikely benefit has been stopped

murphaph

handlemaster wrote: »

if the lady has been with you for two years and no hassle. id chill a little.Wait until monday call again. when is she back ? stay ontop of it but dont be an ass either to start off with.

Op may not be in a position to chill if he can't make his mortgage payment because of missed rent payment. He has little choice until but to wait until Monday but he should be already preparing to serve a 14 day notice of arrears the moment he can validly do so. He should start getting the paperwork together and be ready to go in a week with it.

Moonbeam

It gets paid to the tenant unless otherwise requested. Ring the sw office involved that is what I did an they were helpful.

No Pants

Jiggers77 wrote: »

it's just a holiday.

Possible means testing?

ABajaninCork

I reckon this is a review of the RA. When the tenant gets back, I'd ask her if any paperwork was sent for you to sign.

murphaph

This kind of arbitrary termination/suspension of RS by the "powers that be" is one of the main, if not the main reason that landlords have no time for RS tenants in the main.

fussyonion

Yeah I reckon her rent has come up for review and has possibly been sent the review forms but as she's away, is not aware.
If this is the case, the chances are she is going to be told to get a reduction in rent to meet the new limits.
Not much you can do until she returns home.

Jiggers77

fussyonion wrote: »

Yeah I reckon her rent has come up for review and has possibly been sent the review forms but as she's away, is not aware.
If this is the case, the chances are she is going to be told to get a reduction in rent to meet the new limits.
Not much you can do until she returns home.

Thanks guys just been on to HSE and they have said its a problem with paperwork ( possibly forms not returned ). I rang the tenant and she got in touch with them and apparently due to a computer cliche they didn't send the forms to her in the first place. Bloody typical! I'm hoping to be paid in next few days they are pushing things through!

Ray Palmer

Jiggers77 wrote: »

Thanks guys just been on to HSE and they have said its a problem with paperwork ( possibly forms not returned ). I rang the tenant and she got in touch with them and apparently due to a computer cliche they didn't send the forms to her in the first place. Bloody typical! I'm hoping to be paid in next few days they are pushing things through!

Here is the main reason to avoid RA. Tenants always forget forms as it doesn't effect them directly. Every year without fail I have a tenant that forgets the form.

Meathlass

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Here is the main reason to avoid RA. Tenants always forget forms as it doesn't effect them directly. Every year without fail I have a tenant that forgets the form.

In fairness to this tenant, she didn't forget the form. The HSE didn't post them in the first place due to a 'computer glitch'.

Ray Palmer

Meathlass wrote: »

In fairness to this tenant, she didn't forget the form. The HSE didn't post them in the first place due to a 'computer glitch'.

Did the HSE tell you that or did she? I know the system and it is all automated and the "glitch" would want to be pretty unique to somehow just exclude her.

dharma200

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Here is the main reason to avoid RA. Tenants always forget forms as it doesn't effect them directly. Every year without fail I have a tenant that forgets the form.

I don't see how a small glitch in a system would have anyone suggesting that it is a reason to exclude RA.

It wasn't intentional by the tenant, who has by all accounts been a good tenant for TWO years.... One missed payment due to a clerical error in TWO years and you are suggesting that that is a reason to avoid the thousands of people who through no fault of their own need a house to live in but also require rent allowance....

I am very glad to not have a landlord like you, that attitude towards people stinks.

Ray Palmer

dharma200 wrote: »

I don't see how a small glitch in a system would have anyone suggesting that it is a reason to exclude RA.

It wasn't intentional by the tenant, who has by all accounts been a good tenant for TWO years.... One missed payment due to a clerical error in TWO years and you are suggesting that that is a reason to avoid the thousands of people who through no fault of their own need a house to live in but also require rent allowance....

I am very glad to not have a landlord like you, that attitude towards people stinks.

Because it is very likely not true that it was glitch. How do you know the tenant didn't just ignore it? I know the computer system it would be very strange that something just didn't get sent out to one person. Much more likely somebody didn't fill out and return their form or say they never got it.

I am suggesting people don't process their forms and that is why not to take RA.

Well you are a shining example of somebody who is quite happy to get the wrong end of the stick and come to a snap judgement incorrectly.

dharma200

I do not see how I got the wrong end of the stick... A form was not filled out, the welfare are fast tracking the case, a good tenant for over two years... The op gsaid what has happened, you said it is a reason for landlords not to allow people who are on rent allowance to rent their properties. That , in my opinion, is a stick with something on the end, not the wrong end.

dharma200

I cannot see how it is in any tenants interest to ignore a rent supplement form... What, the tenant went, ach no I won't bother getting rent allowance, probably half my income and piss my landlord off who I have had a good relationship with two years? Totally plausible that the woman was only dying to screw up her claim, annoy her landlord and make her accommodation even less secure? I'm sure she thought that was a great idea to do just for the craic....

ShaShaBear

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Because it is very likely not true that it was glitch. How do you know the tenant didn't just ignore it? I know the computer system it would be very strange that something just didn't get sent out to one person. Much more likely somebody didn't fill out and return their form or say they never got it.

I am suggesting people don't process their forms and that is why not to take RA.

Well you are a shining example of somebody who is quite happy to get the wrong end of the stick and come to a snap judgement incorrectly.

Happened me twice in one year. Very plausible. Every month, myself and every other recipient of Rent Supplement in Dundalk had to take a signed form into the Community Welfare Office, and place it in a cardboard box by the front door. Closing date was always printed on the form. The box was lifted at 3PM the evening before the deadline, and the forms were processed. If they didn't get through the forms before 6PM that day, anyone they didn't get would likely be missing a payment the following week. Trick was to get your form in about a week early so you were at the very top of the pile. Otherwise you were in for a 3 hour wait in the office the following Wednesday morning to hand over your form personally.

Ray Palmer

ShaShaBear wrote: »

Happened me twice in one year. Very plausible. Every month, myself and every other recipient of Rent Supplement in Dundalk had to take a signed form into the Community Welfare Office, and place it in a cardboard box by the front door. Closing date was always printed on the form. The box was lifted at 3PM the evening before the deadline, and the forms were processed. If they didn't get through the forms before 6PM that day, anyone they didn't get would likely be missing a payment the following week. Trick was to get your form in about a week early so you were at the very top of the pile. Otherwise you were in for a 3 hour wait in the office the following Wednesday morning to hand over your form personally.

That is not a glitch!

That is somebody waiting till the last minute to give in their forms which basically proves my point.

corkboy10

Landlords are only interested in money money money but when the property needs repairs maintenance the tenants USUALLY get told to f**k off,i was a tenant of a fine gael cork city councillor for 4 years,nothing but trouble and vermin!!!!!use the money WHEN YE RECEIVE IT to maintain properties and ask for prospective tenant references that should help,you cant tar all R.A people with the one brush

ShaShaBear

Ray Palmer wrote: »

That is not a glitch!

That is somebody waiting till the last minute to give in their forms which basically proves my point.

Nope, it isn't. On both occasions my form was in before the deadline. The computers automatically cancelled payment for anyone who wasn't recorded as handing in a form before the deadline, despite the fact that the form was in fact handed in. Clerically, they couldn't cope with the mass of paperwork, and failed to notice that if they didn't get the work done, people who had done exactly as they were asked would suffer financially.

On both occasions they apologised to me and acknowledged that my form had been received on time, but because it wasn't processed that day, the computer assumed I didn't hand it in and marked me as not to get paid the following week. That is a computer's mistake. Not mine.

Ray Palmer

corkboy10 wrote: »

Landlords are only interested in money money money but when the property needs repairs maintenance the tenants USUALLY get told to f**k off,i was a tenant of a fine gael cork city councillor for 4 years,nothing but trouble and vermin!!!!!use the money WHEN YE RECEIVE IT to maintain properties and ask for prospective tenant references that should help,you cant tar all R.A people with the one brush

So you can't tar RA tenants as the same but you can do it with LL?:rolleyes:

corkboy10

The law gives more rights to tenants than landlords,remind enda and his crew next time they want your vote :-D

Ray Palmer

ShaShaBear wrote: »

Nope, it isn't. On both occasions my form was in before the deadline. The computers automatically cancelled payment for anyone who wasn't recorded as handing in a form before the deadline, despite the fact that the form was in fact handed in. Clerically, they couldn't cope with the mass of paperwork, and failed to notice that if they didn't get the work done, people who had done exactly as they were asked would suffer financially.

On both occasions they apologised to me and acknowledged that my form had been received on time, but because it wasn't processed that day, the computer assumed I didn't hand it in and marked me as not to get paid the following week. That is a computer's mistake. Not mine.

I know the system very well as I worked on its design. They didn't fail to notice they knew perfectly well the payment gets cancelled. They do this on purpose to get people not to hand in their forms at the last minute.

That is not a computer mistake that is a delay caused by the person waiting till the last minute. Do you now make sure your form is in before the last minute? I can't remember if they added the text telling people that while the dead line insures they will get their claim money if left till the last date there may be a disruption in payments. It has been a while since I worked on that system.

ShaShaBear

Ray Palmer wrote: »

I know the system very well as I worked on its design. They didn't fail to notice they knew perfectly well the payment gets cancelled. They do this on purpose to get people not to hand in their forms at the last minute.

That is not a computer mistake that is a delay caused by the person waiting till the last minute. Do you now make sure your form is in before the last minute? I can't remember if they added the text telling people that while the dead line insures they will get their claim money if left till the last date there may be a disruption in payments. It has been a while since I worked on that system.

If the date on the top of the form is too late to be handed in, then it should not be the date on the top of the form. I hand in my form when I am able, as it needs to be signed by a landlord, who I only see once a month. Not sure I like the chastising tone. The system is flawed. Not everyone on Rent Supplement is in contact with a landlord 24/7 to get these forms signed - some actually have to post the forms with SAE's and hope they get them back on time. If you helped design this system, you would know that they don't allow you to hand in your form more than 5 working days before the date on the top of the form.

Ray Palmer

ShaShaBear wrote: »

If the date on the top of the form is too late to be handed in, then it should not be the date on the top of the form. I hand in my form when I am able, as it needs to be signed by a landlord, who I only see once a month. Not sure I like the chastising tone. The system is flawed. Not everyone on Rent Supplement is in contact with a landlord 24/7 to get these forms signed - some actually have to post the forms with SAE's and hope they get them back on time. If you helped design this system, you would know that they don't allow you to hand in your form more than 5 working days before the date on the top of the form.

What part of designed the system do you not get? I know how it works and why. It does what the department wanted. There is plenty of time to fill out the form and return it.

ShaShaBear

Ray Palmer wrote: »

What part of designed the system do you not get? I know how it works and why. It does what the department wanted. There is plenty of time to fill out the form and return it.

The part where, no-matter when in the 5 day period you hand your form in, you could still be cut off by a computer if the people working in the office don't get far enough down the increasing pile

The_Conductor

I would direct everyone's attention to the Forum's Charter.
I'll paraphrase- if you disagree with what another member posts- refute the post, without attacking the poster. Any more personal snipping at one another will result in bans. You have been warned.

Ray Palmer

ShaShaBear wrote: »

The part where, no-matter when in the 5 day period you hand your form in, you could still be cut off by a computer if the people working in the office don't get far enough down the increasing pile

So you don't understand how every processing system work and in fact don't understand computers.

How would you suggest a computer system knows something without getting it entered into the system? Do you think staff should stay late get paid overtime to process claims? It is very easy to point out flaws but what is the alternative?

The easy and cheap one is to give the clients less time to get the form back hence the punishment aspect. See how these things happen. :cool:

bennyl10

Ray Palmer wrote: »

So you don't understand how every processing system work and in fact don't understand computers.

How would you suggest a computer system knows something without getting it entered into the system? Do you think staff should stay late get paid overtime to process claims? It is very easy to point out flaws but what is the alternative?

The easy and cheap one is to give the clients less time to get the form back hence the punishment aspect. See how these things happen. :cool:

But arw staff not paid to do the forms?.. if thwy dont finish them them yes tbey shoukd work extra..
A decent system doesnt mistake lazy staff

Ray Palmer

bennyl10 wrote: »

But arw staff not paid to do the forms?.. if thwy dont finish them them yes tbey shoukd work extra..
A decent system doesnt mistake lazy staff

The staff are paid for a certain amount of hours after that they should be paid overtime. No overtime no extra work. They already increased their working week by 2.5 hours a week. You would upset your fellow employees and union if you work for free.

There is too much work for the amount of staff and a recruitment ban. Would you work for free? Nothing lazy about that.

So to clarify your idea is get staff to work for free.

fussyonion

Ray Palmer wrote: »

The staff are paid for a certain amount of hours after that they should be paid overtime. No overtime no extra work. They already increased their working week by 2.5 hours a week. You would upset your fellow employees and union if you work for free.

There is too much work for the amount of staff and a recruitment ban. Would you work for free? Nothing lazy about that.

So to clarify your idea is get staff to work for free.

Ray, I completely understand your point regarding RA.

I, myself, was a RA tenant and every year the rent was reviewed. 9 times out of 10 the allowance was reduced in accordance with rent limits in the county.

I had to ask my LL for reductions and I hated it.

He was a lovely LL who had reduced it because we were good tenants, but I understood he, too, had a mortgage to pay for, and I knew it wasn't his fault that our rent allowance was being reduced.

I am not a RA tenant now but even if I was, I would be of the opinion that RA is a lot of hassle and if I was a LL, I wouldn't take them as tenants, purely based on the hassle with the forms that need to filled out and the reductions..it's just not worth it.

Ray Palmer

fussyonion wrote: »

I am not a RA tenant now but even if I was, I would be of the opinion that RA is a lot of hassle and if I was a LL, I wouldn't take them as tenants, purely based on the hassle with the forms that need to filled out and the reductions..it's just not worth it.

That is what I think anybody who has experienced the system would say from an objective point of view. Their is too many points of failure and reliance on the tenant to stay on top of it.

I have been dealing with an RA tenant for over 15 years and she is nightmare to deal with. The only reason she is there is because the owner of the property couldn't see her in any bother. I reckon she thinks she will be left the property in the will from things she said. She misunderstands that comment " you will be looked after when I am gone" which actual is just a promise I won't kick her out when I inherit the property.

Jiggers77

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Did the HSE tell you that or did she? I know the system and it is all automated and the "glitch" would want to be pretty unique to somehow just exclude her.

I can confirm as the OP that the HSE confirmed it was a computer glitch. The system didn't generate a form so tenant didn't receive it this was what I have been told by the community welfare officer anyway

Zamboni

The only moral I can see from this story is don't take RA tenants.
There are simply far too many variables, parties and systems involved in producing a successful rent payment.

afedo

if her rent was up for review, they only give 2 weeks to get them filled out and sent back, but if she is out of the country, one couldnt fault her, and she seems genuine.

The_Conductor

afedo wrote: »

if her rent was up for review, they only give 2 weeks to get them filled out and sent back, but if she is out of the country, one couldnt fault her, and she seems genuine.

If she is out of the country for weeks on end- that alone would raise a red flag with whoever is reviewing her supplement.

JustAThought

The_Conductor wrote: »

If she is out of the country for weeks on end- that alone would raise a red flag with whoever is reviewing her supplement.

I'd be considering going over to discuss it & looking very serious & unforgiving - not nodding & sympathising with her. You want her focused on her obligations with regard to the rent . Chances are she's spent the money on start of school year/holiday & is liking to blame the HSE. Are her children with her on this holiday? All 3 of them -& them living on social welfare payments. That s raising a big red flag here.

afedo

i forgot to the mention, the rent supplement is being changed early next year. the supplement will be paid directly to the landlord instead of the tenant, which is the case now, and the remainder will be deducted from your social welfare payment. I am not sure how this is going to work, because i pay my rent monthly, and they will pay the supplement weekly to the landlord, so my landlord wont get 450 a month that im paying. i know it still amounts to the same over 52 weeks, but my contract states monthly and not weekly. does anybody else have anymore knowledge on this? The only positive with that is more landlords will accept rent allowance if its paid directly to them. regards.

The_Conductor

Gross monthly rent multiplied by 12 and then divided by 52.18 (or 26.09, if the landlord elects to be paid forthnightly).

The welfare deductions are treated separately and are transferred to the Paymaster as a wholly different transaction.

The system is already in place, and ready to go.

afedo

so the landlord can be paid monthly? and my contribution paid monthly also? sorry im slow on the uptake ha

The_Conductor

afedo wrote: »

so the landlord can be paid monthly? and my contribution paid monthly also? sorry im slow on the uptake ha

My understanding is that its to be done on a weekly basis-I can't see any reason why it couldn't be setup for any schedule at all though- the social welfare contribution would continue to be deducted on a weekly basis- which could be then put with the rent and paid monthly- or whatever way you'd like it to be. There is not an awful lot behind the scheduling part of this.