Is South Africa worse off now than under Apartheid?

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

South Africa has (I think) the highest murder rate, rape rate, violent assaults and car hijackings in the world. Aids is rife, people seem to live in either little huts in abject poverty or in mansions surrounded by large walls in gated communities who pay private security firms to be their armed guards.

It appears that a small number of black people are now in a position of great power and wealth replacing a small number of white people who were in charge.

Life appears, to be worse for the average South African, not just the whites but for the coloureds and Indians and even some/many/most blacks.

Nearly everyone agrees Apartheid was wrong, but is the country actually a worse place to be born in now compared to pre 1994.

From all the documentaries I've seen and the odd bit of reading I come across about the place it seems like a grim, violent hell hole.

Thoughts?

Ping Chow Chi

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

South Africa has (I think) the highest murder rate, rape rate, violent assaults and car hijackings in the world. Aids is rife, people seem to live in either little huts in abject poverty or in mansions surrounded by large walls in gated communities who pay private security firms to be their armed guards.

It appears that a small number of black people are now in a position of great power and wealth replacing a small number of white people who were in charge.

Life appears, to be worse for the average South African, not just the whites but for the coloureds and Indians and even some/many/most blacks.

Nearly everyone agrees Apartheid was wrong, but is the country actually a worse place to be born in now compared to pre 1994.

From all the documentaries I've seen and the odd bit of reading I come across about the place it seems like a grim, violent hell hole.

Thoughts?

I believe that some centralAmerican countries have much higher murder rates. I would link you the stats but I'm on my tablet.

Sand

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

From all the documentaries I've seen and the odd bit of reading I come across about the place it seems like a grim, violent hell hole.
Thoughts?

And how is that different from apartheid South Africa?

Karl Stein

Worse off in what way?

Jonny Blaze

I recently visited Johannesburg to see my father and was pretty shocked by the inequality there. Having been to the apartheid museum though I would severely doubt that life for the average south African is worse.


Some of the horrific treatment black people were forced to endure was disgusting in the same way as Nazism was.


Sure there is still poverty and the many ills you outlined above, but a lot of that is starting to get slowly better. Historically, there has not been a huge amount of time for the nation to feel the effects of the positive work going on since the end of apartheid.

Manach

Only having read about the country only peripheral, my guess is while the political freedoms have increased immeasurably - especially compared to other African countries where tribal inequalities is de-facto imposed: the economic benefits are only being disproportionately of benefit to marginal groups that support the current ruling ANC support. I suspect much like post-Independence parties in Ireland, they will milk this for all it is worth for a generation to come.

junder

Shockingly the deaths of Australian aboriginals in Australian prisons was higher then the deaths of blacks in South African prisons during the time of apartide

crockholm

I believe that if the ANC were to fracture it might bode well for the future of democracy in the country.Helen Zille just reminds me of a lone white sprinter at an olympic 100m dash final(i.e.-just not going to happen,but nice to see there for the novelty of it all)

Should mr.Julius Malema start climbing the ladder again at the ANC,now there is a worry.

steddyeddy

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

South Africa has (I think) the highest murder rate, rape rate, violent assaults and car hijackings in the world. Aids is rife, people seem to live in either little huts in abject poverty or in mansions surrounded by large walls in gated communities who pay private security firms to be their armed guards.

It appears that a small number of black people are now in a position of great power and wealth replacing a small number of white people who were in charge.

Life appears, to be worse for the average South African, not just the whites but for the coloureds and Indians and even some/many/most blacks.

Nearly everyone agrees Apartheid was wrong, but is the country actually a worse place to be born in now compared to pre 1994.

From all the documentaries I've seen and the odd bit of reading I come across about the place it seems like a grim, violent hell hole.

Thoughts?

I don't know why you're linking a high crime rate with the absence of apartheid so I'm not going to make any tenuous connections on that issue. I will say the country is infinitesimally better now because now the majority of the population have a say in running it

Nodin

crockholm wrote: »

I believe that if the ANC were to fracture it might bode well for the future of democracy in the country.Helen Zille just reminds me of a lone white sprinter at an olympic 100m dash final(i.e.-just not going to happen,but nice to see there for the novelty of it all)

Should mr.Julius Malema start climbing the ladder again at the ANC,now there is a worry.

...he's been expelled from the party for life.

steddyeddy

Amazing a lot of other countries have equally appalling crime rates but the same people again and again make a point about south Africa being worse post apartheid.

sarkozy

I was in Lesotho when Malema was singing 'Shoot the Boer'. I remember the issue being taken seriously enough, but Malema was also seen for what he was: a populist and rediculous.

Asking whether SA is better or worse since the end of apartheid is an unfair question, it's too complex. I mean, on what dimension to you measure whether it's improved? For whom? And over what timeframe?

Apartheid is over, the South African Union has the most enlightened constitution in the world, every SA citizen is formally free and equal and bearers of their human rights.

SA is the largest economy in Africa and is growing rapidly; much of the country is not only receiving inward investment by foreign companies but South African companies are investing in countries all over the southern African region; this economic power affords South Africa (e.g. through the Southern Africa Customs Union and the Southern African Development Community) the ability to influence the region in its self-interest.

Its society's structure is in a state of massive transformation. Social mobility - which was strictly banned along racial lines - is actually now possible, more and more poor people have more access to health and education, and people have hope.

But even though there are these and many more positives, SA is shockingly unequal and poverty and its symptoms such as violent crime (though Apartheid was also a violent crime) are a fact of life for so many. There are structural reasons for this. The ANC, as the most prominent organisation rising out of the struggle (civil society is complex, also involving very organised unions and other associations), mobilised on a platform of democracy, social justice, redistribution, equality. Making good on this promise having taken power meant having influence to nationalise, to spend more on public services, but in the years prior to the end of Apartheid, the (white) regime, (white) businesses, (mostly white) foreign powers and corporations conspired to sell off much of the state and legally entwine the ANC government so much that they could never hope to deliver on their programme.

So, after the long dark night of apartheid, after decades of state-led violence, the newly liberated majority could not address the country's ills as much as was hoped.

The trauma of apartheid is so great, the white regime left so much damage in its wake, that the country is utterly scarred. The trauma is so great that no government of any persuasion with all the resources it needed could in reality fix even just the worst of the problems in a few generations.

And, true, the complex politics of SA, and the form of politics through the ANC, is achieving some things and in other cases failing its people and making problems worse.

But there's so much need, so it depends who you ask if things have improved. White people I got to know in Cape Town, who were mortified by apartheid and live in an integrated way with other colours and classes, would think certain things are improving. Other whites say they can't get a job because of racism and have left the country - I can empathise, but look at the unequal starting point most whites start from relative to a black person in rural Free State. Some black people who've been university educated, whose parents have good ties to ANC apperachiks, etc. would feel they're doing well, and colourds in some of the old townships of Durban might say they've seen no real change at all in their everyday life.

I left SA (Lesotho, really) with a feeling of a culturally rich, beautiful and promising country and people emerging from a terrible history, much of which still exists in all but name, but a country in flux where a vibrant civil society is struggling for better and powerful domestic and foreign interests are challenging that in the name of profit (e.g. the Marikana Mine massacre).

Just some thoughts.

woodoo

sarkozy wrote: »

The trauma of apartheid is so great, the white regime left so much damage in its wake, that the country is utterly scarred. The trauma is so great that no government of any persuasion with all the resources it needed could in reality fix even just the worst of the problems in a few generations.

It is hard to see much of a future for white South Africans there if the feelings are so strong.

sarkozy

If there are any South Africans on here, I'd like to hear their experience and views. I don't think it has to be like that. It's a complex problem.

Without so-called 'affirmative action', it would be possible for the balance of power (money, jobs, etc.) stay with the pre-apartheid elites. But what has happened, in my understanding is, this policy to provide access to jobs for previously excluded people has in some cases turned into a form of ANC/new elite patronage.

But the picture is more complex than that. It's not like all the whites are being overlooked for jobs. And it's not like all black and coloured people are given jobs without having the necessary education/qualifications because they know someone influential. But these things are said. My experience of South Africa is that most businesses are still owned by white people even if staffed by anyone else. And I certainly didn't experience all public sector jobs being staffed by non-white people. So things are said, and I'm not sure of the reality, which I suspect varies massively across the union.

But I would, personally, get very tired of all this if I felt I was being unjustly overlooked for jobs and always having to look over my shoulder because of insecurity and crime.

This is all a colour/class thing - they're intertwined - but it's not, IMO, necessarily the same as racism. I got tired enough of white people's casual racism. This is dying. But it's a worrying trend that racist/xenophobic incidents that have been increasing are between non-white South Africans and immigrants from surrounding countries like Zimbabwe and Botswana (Lesotho and Swaziland have a long history of being structually integrated with the country).

steddyeddy

There still are segregated toilets in some parts of SA. To say the same backward supporters of apartheid suddenly stopped being backward and holding positions of power would be an error of judgment.

sarkozy

And townships still exist. The majority of the people of Ladybrand (my nearest SA town at the time) didn't suddenly up sticks, leave their shacks and walk the three miles into town to take up residence in fancy houses.

Thomas20

Things would be much better for every one in SA if the ANC were not in power.

sarkozy

And who else would be better placed to run the country? (Honest question.)

View

sarkozy wrote: »

And who else would be better placed to run the country? (Honest question.)

The Democratic Alliance if on no other ground that all democracies need a change of parties in power from time to time.

Nodin

Thomas20 wrote: »

Things would be much better for every one in SA if the ANC were not in power.

Sooner or later they'll split.

jmayo

Any South Africans, Zimbabweans, or Botswanans I have met and talked to are of the belief that South Africa is another Zimbabwe in waiting.

There are some statistics that are truly shocking about South Africa and one of them is it being one of worlds worse for sexual violence.
And in particular for sexual violence against children even babies and infants.
There are claims that around 200,000 kids are sexually assualted ever year.
It is claimed that of the girls born today, they have a one in three chance of finishing school but a one in two chance of being raped.
To me that is one fooked up country.

Of course some will say it is still the fault of apartheid even though it is 20 odd years after it's end and some of the people who rape kids weren't even born when it was in place.
:rolleyes:

Now I don't know if this has dramatically increased post apartheid or not.
Perhaps someone has data to show conclusively one way or another.

steddyeddy

jmayo wrote: »

Any South Africans, Zimbabweans, or Botswanans I have met and talked to are of the belief that South Africa is another Zimbabwe in waiting.

There are some statistics that are truly shocking about South Africa and one of them is it being one of worlds worse for sexual violence.
And in particular for sexual violence against children even babies and infants.
There are claims that around 200,000 kids are sexually assualted ever year.
It is claimed that of the girls born today, they have a one in three chance of finishing school but a one in two chance of being raped.
To me that is one fooked up country.

Of course some will say it is still the fault of apartheid even though it is 20 odd years after it's end and some of the people who rape kids weren't even born when it was in place.
:rolleyes:

Now I don't know if this has dramatically increased post apartheid or not.
Perhaps someone has data to show conclusively one way or another.

I suggest you walk around some of the worst parts of SA because aparthied is far from over. There are still segregated toilets in some parts for instance.

walshb

jmayo wrote: »

Any South Africans, Zimbabweans, or Botswanans I have met and talked to are of the belief that South Africa is another Zimbabwe in waiting.

There are some statistics that are truly shocking about South Africa and one of them is it being one of worlds worse for sexual violence.
And in particular for sexual violence against children even babies and infants.
There are claims that around 200,000 kids are sexually assualted ever year.
It is claimed that of the girls born today, they have a one in three chance of finishing school but a one in two chance of being raped.
To me that is one fooked up country.

Of course some will say it is still the fault of apartheid even though it is 20 odd years after it's end and some of the people who rape kids weren't even born when it was in place.
:rolleyes:

Now I don't know if this has dramatically increased post apartheid or not.
Perhaps someone has data to show conclusively one way or another.

Apartheid had nothing to do with the raping of infants. Pure depravity is what that's about.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

walshb wrote: »

Apartheid had nothing to do with the raping of infants. Pure depravity is what that's about.

It is pure depravity of course but are the reasons behind it not from the gross inequality that is in South Africa today. Inequality stemming out of Apartheid South Africa and perpetuated today by the ANC's South Africa.

jmayo

steddyeddy wrote: »

I suggest you walk around some of the worst parts of SA because aparthied is far from over. There are still segregated toilets in some parts for instance.

I am talking about the state legislated racism that was apartheid not the fact some places and people are still racist.

AFAIK the definition most would put on apartheid is

An official policy of racial segregation formerly practiced in the Republic of South Africa, involving political, legal, and economic discrimination against nonwhites.

Note the word offical.

Or if we resort to wikipedia you find first line...

Apartheid (Afrikaans pronunciation: [ɐˈpɑːrtɦɛit]; from Afrikaans[1] "the state of being apart") was a system of racial segregation enforced through legislation by the National Party (NP) governments, who were the ruling party from 1948 to 1994, of South Africa, under which the rights of the majority black inhabitants of South Africa were curtailed and white supremacy and Afrikaner minority rule was maintained.

Is it state policy to segregate today ?

I commented about apartheid (0ffical state sponosored racism) being gone 20 years into this discussion, because as sure as hell some will use it as an excuse for the savagery perpetrated today against women, children and homosexuals.

steddyeddy

jmayo wrote: »

I am talking about the state legislated racism that was apartheid not the fact some places and people are still racist.

AFAIK the definition most would put on apartheid is

An official policy of racial segregation formerly practiced in the Republic of South Africa, involving political, legal, and economic discrimination against nonwhites.

Note the word offical.

Or if we resort to wikipedia you find first line...



Is it state policy to segregate today ?

I commented about apartheid (0ffical state sponosored racism) being gone 20 years into this discussion, because as sure as hell some will use it as an excuse for the savagery perpetrated today against women, children and homosexuals.

I'll tell that to a south African living in Boer territory who can't is constantly discriminated against. Regardless of state policy you have some very backward people in SA.

sarkozy

steddyeddy wrote: »

I'll tell that to a south African living in Boer territory who can't is constantly discriminated against. Regardless of state policy you have some very backward people in SA.

Indeed. I lived in Lesotho and spent enough time in Free State to know racism is still alive and well and Apartheid exists in all but name. Indeed, as jmayo writes, 'Apartheid' was the name given to the official state racism, but this existed in all but name BEFORE it became a legal regime. And this is the exact inverse of the situation in SA today: the most enlightened constitution in the world but, to a large extent, continued racism and radical socio-economic inequality.

Edit: Coincidentally enough, it's the centenary of the Natives Land Act 1913, one of the first codifications of the racist SA state. Here's a good article about the Act's legacy: http://africasacountry.com/100-years-of-land-dispossession-in-south-africa/

A complex country with a complex set of issues.

While a publicly acknowledged crisis in SA, I'd be careful of emphasising the scandal of sexually-based violence in South Africa out of context. This is not a personal accusation when I say it, but in general, comments like these are implicitly racist - it's code for negative stereotyping of black or coloured people. And why you'd pick this out as a specific issue to illustrate a point about South Africa over others, and in spite of the fact that sexual violence is probably more frequent in countries in conflict like Democratic Republic of Congo or wars sponsored by Western powers is one perhaps worth reflecting on.

There's a vast literature on these kinds of ethical issues of perception and representation of the African continent. The excellent blog http://africasacountry.com/ is a place to explore further.