NTA: Luas at capacity

AngryLips

Forgive me if this has already been posted but here is a recent article in the Indo about the Luas being at capacity

TheBandicoot

Is new rolling stock included in the BXD budget?

MGWR

That's what they get for not building it as DART. Never mind the traffic problems caused by on-street tramways in the city centre, which are only going to get worse with that BXD error. No light rail can ever have the carrying capacity of heavy rail. And adding more trams will make the average speed suffer further.

AlekSmart

MGWR wrote: »

That's what they get for not building it as DART. Never mind the traffic problems caused by on-street tramways in the city centre, which are only going to get worse with that BXD error. No light rail can ever have the carrying capacity of heavy rail. And adding more trams will make the average speed suffer further.

It strikes me that the "capacity" problems referred to are quite specific,and relate to the City Centre-Heuston Station and perhaps Dundrum-Stephens Green legs of the systems.

However try the same sections outside of "The Peaks" and a somewhat lessened scenario will be visible,with nowhere near acceptable load-factor levels being generated....those emoty Park & Ride sites tell a mute tale sure'nuff.

As our unique interpretation of Urban Planning theory is now demonstrating,servicing the Twin-Peaks of this Capital was always going to be challenging.

Vahevala

I get on at Sandyford and it can be quite busy going into town and the same story in the opposite direction at peak time... guessing off peak it isn't quite the same.

Jamie2k9

MGWR wrote: »

That's what they get for not building it as DART. Never mind the traffic problems caused by on-street tramways in the city centre, which are only going to get worse with that BXD error. No light rail can ever have the carrying capacity of heavy rail. And adding more trams will make the average speed suffer further.

Ah sorry who cares about the traffic problems, public transport always first and not the motor car. I hope people in cars suffer even more delays once Luas BXD starts.

Adding more trams won't make a difference in speed at all, there is room for extra trams.

Maybe they should look at terminating a tram or two per hour at Heuston to allow it operate more often in the city centre.

spank_inferno

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Ah sorry who cares about the traffic problems, public transport always first and not the motor car. I hope people in cars suffer even more delays once Luas BXD starts.

Adding more trams won't make a difference in speed at all, there is room for extra trams.

Maybe they should look at terminating a tram or two per hour at Heuston to allow it operate more often in the city centre.

As they are do the Trams not cover the length of the platform?
I thought they did (on the green line at least).

Also, I think they can increase the frequency a bit if they pushed it.
every 3 mins is feasible for the 3 peak hours

munchkin_utd

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Maybe they should look at terminating a tram or two per hour at Heuston to allow it operate more often in the city centre.

they do have shuttles from Heuston to Connolly but many folks don't cop on to the fact that a tram showing one of these destinations (on the advance timetable thing) would be a half empty shuttle so just pile onto the Tallaght/ Point tram a minute earlier which is already full.

Jamie2k9

munchkin_utd wrote: »

they do have shuttles from Heuston to Connolly but many folks don't cop on to the fact that a tram showing one of these destinations (on the advance timetable thing) would be a half empty shuttle so just pile onto the Tallaght/ Point tram a minute earlier which is already full.

AFAIK they don't have shuttles anymore, they used to a lot but very rare now since announced freq changes a few months ago.

RPU staff spend a lot of time around Heuston stop so maybe if some of them alert people. I think people still think a tram will arrive before the one on the island departs. This does happen and if this changes then people will use it but the real point is outbound in the evenings so it returning largely empty from Heuston to Connolly in the evening wouldn't matter as its outbound when its required. Same but opposite in the mornings.

As they are do the Trams not cover the length of the platform?
I thought they did (on the green line at least).

Also, I think they can increase the frequency a bit if they pushed it.
every 3 mins is feasible for the 3 peak hours

They do cover the length of platform but as you say increase freq is needed.

Any spare capacity they had when they cut services slightly a few years ago was cancelled out once the line to Saggart opened.

monument

MGWR wrote: »

That's what they get for not building it as DART. Never mind the traffic problems caused by on-street tramways in the city centre, which are only going to get worse with that BXD error. No light rail can ever have the carrying capacity of heavy rail. And adding more trams will make the average speed suffer further.

Luas managed to bring 10,000 people into Dublin City Centre in the morning rush hour -- that's on a network of just two lines amounting to 36.5km. All other rail (Dart, Commuter and Intercity) only managed 24,000 people on four lines which has more than 100km in the short hop zone alone.

The thing about Luas however is has outperformed all expectations off-peak -- Luas is highly successful all day long.

Luas is (by our standards) a high-capacity transport system which gets high use out of rush hour. It's an highly productive use of street space and junction time. It does not cause "traffic problems" -- it carries traffic more efficiently than any other on-street motorist transport in Dublin. Dublin's main traffic problem is high numbers of people traveling in cars on their own -- many traveling short distances; in 2006 there was 100,000 driving less than 4km.

monument

AlekSmart wrote: »

It strikes me that the "capacity" problems referred to are quite specific,and relate to the City Centre-Heuston Station and perhaps Dundrum-Stephens Green legs of the systems.

"It strikes me"... and that's code for?

AlekSmart wrote: »

However try the same sections outside of "The Peaks" and a somewhat lessened scenario will be visible,with nowhere near acceptable load-factor levels being generated....those emoty Park & Ride sites tell a mute tale sure'nuff.

Err... City Centre-Heuston Station and Dundrum-Stephens Green?

You'll find Luas overall is noted for having high off-peak loading -- and that's regardless of the more questionable extensions.

AlekSmart

monument wrote: »

"It strikes me"... and that's code for?

Err... City Centre-Heuston Station and Dundrum-Stephens Green?

You'll find Luas overall is noted for having high off-peak loading -- and that's regardless of the more questionable extensions.

Agreed....Red Cow - Tallaght/Saggart after 1800 rarely goes above 40% occupancy....erm...well ok...If there's a match on in Rovers Ground that can alter somewhat....depending on the attitude of the Garda Public Order Unit...;)

However in any event,according to the NTA's most recent pronouncements here...

http://nationaltransport.ie.cdn.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Draft-Intergrated-Implemation-Plan-2013-2018.pdf

....It looks like a capacity upgrade for the Green Line will be the most immediate occurence....

Page 46 Sec 10.3.2 Light Rail.

In order to meet anticipated demand,the capacity of railcars on the Luas Green Line will be increased through the lengthening of the existing trams

(I just love the juxtaposition of RailCar and Tram here...:) )

As Monument sez,the single occupancy Motor Car has finally made it onto the NTA's reality screen,but I would suggest some 7 years too late....It is illustrative that the corridor which the NTA now describes as being at capacity is the N3 leading out to Noel Dempsey land.....;)

hmmm

Reliable, clean, comfortable - it's everything we've never had before in public transport in Dublin. They should try some demand management measures e.g. charging higher & lower fares at different times.

KD345

hmmm wrote: »

Reliable, clean, comfortable - it's everything we've never had before in public transport in Dublin. They should try some demand management measures e.g. charging higher & lower fares at different times.

We already have higher fares at peak times.

TINA1984

Remember when the Indo used to publish articles saying the LUAS would be a failure and a white elephant?

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independe...issue_id=10548

Luas damned for 'making no financial or commuter sense'

LUAS, which will cost more than €1bn, makes no economic sense at all and is unlikely to shift more then 1pc more of Dublin's commuters on to public transport, a leading economist warned yesterday.

Colm McCarthy, managing director of DKM Economic Consultants, pointed out that the latest figure for the cost of the 23-kilometre Luas line was about the same as the cost of a 3,000-kilometre rail line in Australia.

KD345

AlekSmart wrote: »

However try the same sections outside of "The Peaks" and a somewhat lessened scenario will be visible,with nowhere near acceptable load-factor levels being generated....those emoty Park & Ride sites tell a mute tale sure'nuff.

How would you define an unacceptable off-peak load? Most trams I travel on off-peak carry good numbers right up to the last departure. Granted, the final few stops of the line will be carrying only a handful of passengers, but that's the same for the end of any bus/tram/train line to suburbs.

The Stillorgan/Red Cow park and ride always seem busy. The new drop off bays get good use at Fatima and Rialto, as do the new cycle bays along the lines - the sheltered cycle park at Spencer Dock is really well designed.

Banjoxed

AngryLips wrote: »

Forgive me if this has already been posted but here is a recent article in the Indo about the Luas being at capacity

I'd trust the Beano more on the subject of Dublin Transport than I would the Indo. This was the newspaper that had hand wringing articles on both DART and Luas as being allegedly "white elephant" projects on the flimsiest of grounds during their construction phases so Burdock's chip wrapper would get more respect from me on transport issues than it or the Evil Gerald.

AlekSmart

KD345 wrote: »

How would you define an unacceptable off-peak load? Most trams I travel on off-peak carry good numbers right up to the last departure. Granted, the final few stops of the line will be carrying only a handful of passengers, but that's the same for the end of any bus/tram/train line to suburbs.

The Stillorgan/Red Cow park and ride always seem busy. The new drop off bays get good use at Fatima and Rialto, as do the new cycle bays along the lines - the sheltered cycle park at Spencer Dock is really well designed.

Yep,they sure are.

SeanW

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Ah sorry who cares about the traffic problems, public transport always first and not the motor car. I hope people in cars suffer even more delays once Luas BXD starts.

Seriously?

It is possible to be pro-Public Transport without being anti car.

I believe the MGWRs points are entirely valid: while it is IMO beyond dispute that the Luas is a success (despite bizarre commentary from certain quarters that has been proven absolutely spectacularly wrong), it is true that if it had been built to a higher standard, say, that of a Metro or DART, it would have been faster for the service users and the road space taken up by it would have been less.

Ergo, while the plan chosen was worthwhile, there should be a small warning in there about using trams were a more fully specified system might be appropriate for all concerned.

And yes, I think very much it was a case of using the light-rail aspect to cheap it out, e.g. the entire Green line and possibly the Red from Heuston to Connolly, the latter of which could have been done either as a viaduct or cut-and-cover tunneling.

Jamie2k9

Plenty of European cities have trams just as busy at Dublin and it's not a problem.

When its carrying thousands of people per day people in cars have no right to moan about the traffic congestion it causes as if it wasn't there traffic would be much worse.

The time savings underground would be small as once it leaves the city centre it has its own line with very few crossings with roads.

SeanW

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Plenty of European cities have trams just as busy at Dublin and it's not a problem.

True.

When its carrying thousands of people per day people in cars have no right to moan about the traffic congestion it causes as if it wasn't there traffic would be much worse.

True, but that's not what you said; to be specific:

... I hope people in cars suffer even more ...

There's a very large difference between those two statements.

The time savings underground would be small as once it leaves the city centre it has its own line with very few crossings with roads.

I did specifically mention the Red line from Heuston towards the CC, as for the Green line, the alignment was previously 5'3" heavy rail for the most part, and could have been done to a higher standard at not much more cost.

dowlingm

Instead of demand management, LUAS could request the DSP to allow free travel passes only offpeak, i.e. like it was before Seamus Brennan's blunder.

monument, your point is taken about LUAS throughput but heavy rail does have the burden of rather more stringent separation requirements.

mikemac1

Could we maybe have a garda and his bike on Amiens St in the evenings? Sure Store St is next door

So many times the Luas heading outbound has been blocked by foolish drivers in the yellow box. Usually cleared quickly but sometimes we can be there a while.

Jamie2k9

SeanW

I stand by both statements, when BXD opens traffic congestion will increase because of it and I'm happy about that, there is plenty of people who could use public transport but for one reason or another, for example its below them, miscalculated cost and some people are to lazy to walk a little to make the effort. Increased traffic will change this and push people out of their cars.

If I was in power I would have congestion changes in place in Dublin along key routes into/out of city centre.

Dublin will have no choice in time but introduce them and I can't wait.

Dublin is currently ranked very high on Europe's most congested cities and it has a population of 1.5 million or so and cities in line with congestion have 6,7 or 8 million people, something is going to have to give.

hfallada

There is very little incentive not to use your car in Dublin. Dublin Bus is fairly unreliable. You phone up to complain about 2 buses within 3 mins and none for 25 mins( happening every day for 2 week). The answer is the driver most have been stuck in traffic that morning. The buses are usually full by the time they reach the inner surburbs of the city like Glasnevin, drumcondra. Plus it's fairly expensive if you don't have a tax saver ticket.

Remember a large number of cars going into the city are public service workers. I don't know any private sector workers with their own car space in the city. Maybe if they had to pay for their car space they would use alternative forms of transport( but who would upset the unions).

If dcc had allowed High rise in the city. We probably wouldn't have all the congestion we have now. People who live and work in the city generally don't have cars. But most people in the surburbs have 2 cars as they can't walk to town and are living in the middle of no where as there was no decent sized housing in Dublin city.

carlmango11

hfallada wrote: »

If dcc had allowed High rise in the city. We probably wouldn't have all the congestion we have now.

BUT BUT BUT high rise is bad! Look at Ballymun! That was because the buildings were too tall. If they had have lived in semi-detached 2-stories we wouldn't have those issues.

Plus they'll block the sun from my backgarden - I won't be able to sunbathe for those 8 sunny days a year! Is it so much to ask to just have everyone live in 2 story houses but still have no congestion and great public transport? Poxy government!

AngryLips

Perhaps if there was a denser network of Luas lines, particularly in the city centre - ie with overlapping catchments - this would relieve the congestion experienced on the existing two lines...

bk

It is a chicken and egg problem.

No one wants to use Dublin Bus as it is crap.

Dublin Bus is crap because of all the traffic congestion [1]

Reduce traffic and DB becomes much more reliable and usable.

But our politicians are too afraid to break a few eggs (congestion charging, more bus gates, etc.) to make an omelette.

[1] I will say it is partly DB's own fault, for their insistence on using single door buses and partly the NTA's/governments fault for the awful rollout of Leap and the ticket machines problems with it and the terrible, complicated fare structure on DB.

AngryLips

Perhaps the problem also has something to do with the length of the two luas lines? The lines, on average, are much longer than tram lines found in networks in Manchester, Sheffield and Bordeaux to name a few.

dowlingm

AngryLips wrote: »

Perhaps if there was a denser network of Luas lines, particularly in the city centre - ie with overlapping catchments - this would relieve the congestion experienced on the existing two lines...

LUAS F1 might be doable for relatively small cash, especially if trams were swapped to and from Red Cow services such that any depot would be purely for stabling and cleaning.

Jamie2k9

I agree with most posts about public transport, operators need to improve and people's attitude to it do also.

DART underground would relieve a very large amount of traffic between Heuston and City Centre as many people would transfer off Intercity services to it.

It just shows how much its needed to improve and relieve capacity problems in Dublin but it probably won't happen at this stage or when it does it will be to little to late and once its opened it Dublin will probably back to lack of capacity and something more is needed. At the rate we are going we will always be playing catch up to transport demand.