No one more sorry than I about what happened

legrand

No one Mr [in the context of] Cowen?

Perhaps you should first check with the 100's of thousands who have emigrated and similar number who are in arrears with their mortgages not to mention the unemployed - you may just find they are a tad more sorry than you!

The real point was the mismanagement of the economy is the years of the boom - sure we got some motorways but that's the only tangible legacy.

RobbingBandit

Bertie, The Progressive Democrats, The Green Party, The Quinn Family, The Bankers. These and all the other rats just like you Brian Clown are sorry as the proverbial well ran dry.

hfallada

Does anyone in Ireland, acknowledge that this recession is also a European crisis and international one as well( like at USA and all of their problems). Cyprus, Italy, Spain, Portugal, France( their unemployment is rising), Greece etc. Have massive amounts of unemployment and budget deficits.

Surely FF arent responsaible for all of this. With the collapse of all the european economies and the declining US demand, we were going to enter into a recession anyway(Even Germanys economy declined and they are excellent at managing their economy). The question is would the recession be this bad?Probably not, but I imagine the unemployment figures would still be pretty high.

FF arent entirely to blame for this situation we are in. Its an international crisis and Ireland was going to enter in a recession. I dont emigration figures are a true reflection of the economy, as Irish people always went abroad to get higher paid jobs. Plus a lot of the students that are "emigrating" are going on a year long holiday basically. Some are leaving their jobs here to "emigrate" and return home when their visa expires to another job in Ireland.

VinLieger

hfallada wrote: »

Does anyone in Ireland, acknowledge that this recession is also a European crisis and international one as well( like at USA and all of their problems). Cyprus, Italy, Spain, Portugal, France( their unemployment is rising), Greece etc. Have massive amounts of unemployment and budget deficits.

Surely FF arent responsaible for all of this. With the collapse of all the european economies and the declining US demand, we were going to enter into a recession anyway(Even Germanys economy declined and they are excellent at managing their economy). The question is would the recession be this bad?Probably not, but I imagine the unemployment figures would still be pretty high.

FF arent entirely to blame for this situation we are in. Its an international crisis and Ireland was going to enter in a recession. I dont emigration figures are a true reflection of the economy, as Irish people always went abroad to get higher paid jobs. Plus a lot of the students that are "emigrating" are going on a year long holiday basically. Some are leaving their jobs here to "emigrate" and return home when their visa expires to another job in Ireland.

Yes its a european crisis but we are the only ones whos banks are in such a state and that is solely thanks to the lack of regualtion and blind greed of several FF governments.
Also saying irish people have always gone away? Your talking garbage i cant even count how many of my friends and family have left at this stage and not to just go on a holiday as you claim. Pick your head up out of the sand

Banjo String

I'm sure his big fat, well deserved pension eases his pain.

danmanw8

hfallada wrote: »

FF arent entirely to blame for this situation we are in. Its an international crisis and Ireland was going to enter in a recession.

Yes there was going to be a recession of course there was. But rather than having reserves to do stimulus like most other countries, Bertie had spent everything on winning the 2007 election.
No one except Fianna Fáil is to blame for that!!
Pumping the economy in 2006 and 2007 to win an election is the most corrupt act that has ever taken place in Ireland and those who call it treason aren't far off.
Property prices started to fall in 2006 but that didn't suit the Electoral cycle and Bertie's blind ambition to become the first Taoiseach to win 3 consecutive elections. They basically bought the electorate's votes....with our money. The Lehman's spin just doesn't wash with anyone anymore...except the Fianna Fáil brainwashed.

micosoft

legrand wrote: »

No one Mr [in the context of] Cowen?

Perhaps you should first check with the 100's of thousands who have emigrated and similar number who are in arrears with their mortgages not to mention the unemployed - you may just find they are a tad more sorry than you!

The real point was the mismanagement of the economy is the years of the boom - sure we got some motorways but that's the only tangible legacy.

And what exactly was Cowan? A dictator? The Irish Populace voted him in.

A more telling statement he has is that ALL and I mean ALL of the other parties - FG, SF, Lab, Indy's - proposed spending even more then FF. The reality is that any party that attempted to call a halt on the madness would have been laughed at by the electorate and not receive a vote.

I've never voted FF and never will. But this lazy attempt of blaming a couple of individuals for the crisis when the thing that is broken is the Irish Electorate and their patronage take on politics is the real issue. The proof of it will be when FF get voted into Government next election for the "principled" opposition which is the exact same bull**** sold during the boom. "No to austerity".......

As an aside our economy never dropped below 2004 levels.... we are still better off now then any time before. Your nonsense about motorways being the only tangible result of the boom is hyperbole. We are still massively better off then any time in our history prior to 2004.

jmayo

hfallada wrote: »

Does anyone in Ireland, acknowledge that this recession is also a European crisis and international one as well( like at USA and all of their problems). Cyprus, Italy, Spain, Portugal, France( their unemployment is rising), Greece etc. Have massive amounts of unemployment and budget deficits.

Are all the indigenous banks of those countries only alive today thanks to the taxpayers of the state ?
And lets count Cyprus out please as they are defunct thanks to exposure to Greek debt.
And whay not compare us to the likes of Finland, Denmark, Netherlands rather than the some of the most ineptly run states in Europe ?

hfallada wrote: »

Surely FF arent responsaible for all of this. With the collapse of all the european economies and the declining US demand, we were going to enter into a recession anyway(Even Germanys economy declined and they are excellent at managing their economy). The question is would the recession be this bad?Probably not, but I imagine the unemployment figures would still be pretty high.

Unemploymemnt figures are high in Ireland thanks to fact that the governments of ff allowed competition slip resulting in the loss of real sustainable manufacturing and service jobs that would have actually brought export earnings into this country.
Instead we ended up with an over reliance on the construction and retail related industries.
fff created the environment where the construction industry employed most of the young men in the country.
And that construction industry was soley reliant on the continous flow of cheap credit and Irish people paying way over the ods for property.

And we haven't just entered a recession, we have had to call in the bloody IMF and fgive away our soverignity.

hfallada wrote: »

FF arent entirely to blame for this situation we are in. Its an international crisis and Ireland was going to enter in a recession. I dont emigration figures are a true reflection of the economy, as Irish people always went abroad to get higher paid jobs. Plus a lot of the students that are "emigrating" are going on a year long holiday basically. Some are leaving their jobs here to "emigrate" and return home when their visa expires to another job in Ireland.

It is nice to see the flow of bulls*** is still reaching down to the grassroots.

You have some neck labelling those that are emigrating as either doing it for career advancement (unless you count actually getting a job as career advancement) or for a bloody extended holiday.

But I suppose you are only following in the arrogance of that ould fooker dev who once labelled emigrants in the 50s as somehow being unpatriotic for leaving.

micosoft wrote: »

And what exactly was Cowan? A dictator? The Irish Populace voted him in.

Only 40 odd percent did.

micosoft wrote: »

As an aside our economy never dropped below 2004 levels.... we are still better off now then any time before. Your nonsense about motorways being the only tangible result of the boom is hyperbole. We are still massively better off then any time in our history prior to 2004.

Tell that to the kids with special needs who need classroom assistance.
Tell that to the kids who get one cochlear implant and may have to wait 18 months to get it replaced if it breaks.
Tell that to people who are being left on trolleys in A&E or in day wards so that the HSE can massage their figures.
Tell that to kids who will be in classrooms with higher teacher pupil ratios than before.
Tell that to the people who have increased taxes due to fact we are paying for wholesale incompetence in the apparatus of state (government, dept of finance, regulatory authorities).

Tell that to all those who are in cripling debt for the rest of their lives.
We have now one of the highest levels of personal debt in the world.
We have now one of the highest levels of soverign debt in the world.

Chips Lovell

danmanw8 wrote: »

Yes there was going to be a recession of course there was. But rather than having reserves to do stimulus like most other countries, Bertie had spent everything on winning the 2007 election.
No one except Fianna Fáil is to blame for that!!
Pumping the economy in 2006 and 2007 to win an election is the most corrupt act that has ever taken place in Ireland and those who call it treason aren't far off.

It's hardly treason when a succession of government's had the electorate's enthusiastic backing for the kind of economic policies that got us into trouble.

Finding some scapegoats like Cowen might make people feel better but the reality is that enough people here bought into the madness to make it a national problem.

goose2005

micosoft wrote: »

And what exactly was Cowan? A dictator? The Irish Populace voted him in.

A more telling statement he has is that ALL and I mean ALL of the other parties - FG, SF, Lab, Indy's - proposed spending even more then FF. The reality is that any party that attempted to call a halt on the madness would have been laughed at by the electorate and not receive a vote.

That was Fine Gael's policy in 2002 - they were annihilated.

RainyDay

I'd bet a fiver that Stephanie Meehan is more sorry than Cowen;

http://www.thejournal.ie/priory-hall-stephanie-meehan-letter-taoiseach-enda-kenna-1060256-Aug2013/

EdCastle

hfallada wrote: »

Does anyone in Ireland, acknowledge that this recession is also a European crisis and international one as well( like at USA and all of their problems). Cyprus, Italy, Spain, Portugal, France( their unemployment is rising), Greece etc. Have massive amounts of unemployment and budget deficits.

Surely FF arent responsaible for all of this. With the collapse of all the european economies and the declining US demand, we were going to enter into a recession anyway(Even Germanys economy declined and they are excellent at managing their economy). The question is would the recession be this bad?Probably not, but I imagine the unemployment figures would still be pretty high.

FF arent entirely to blame for this situation we are in. Its an international crisis and Ireland was going to enter in a recession. I dont emigration figures are a true reflection of the economy, as Irish people always went abroad to get higher paid jobs. Plus a lot of the students that are "emigrating" are going on a year long holiday basically. Some are leaving their jobs here to "emigrate" and return home when their visa expires to another job in Ireland.

What planet are you living on or have been on for the past few years? Such a crock of auld sh*te your talking.

Yeah, its an international crisis which is doing Ireland no favours but have you seen the size of our debt in contrast to other countries, its massive! The people of this country will be struggling with that debt for decades into the future long after the recession is sorted.

Who governed the country while that was running out of control.

Two words ....Fianna Fail (ure)

EdCastle

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Finding some scapegoats like Cowen might make people feel better but the reality is that enough people here bought into the madness to make it a national problem.

People bought into the madness for sure but where were the government to take control of things, do you think the government are elected to sit pretty in the Dail or something?

The whole lot of them FF fackers were coining it for themselves while they used the people to destroy the country. A lot them are now sitting on big hefty pensions like lords while the people of the country struggle to scrape two pence together.

Chips Lovell

EdCastle wrote: »

... but where were the government to take control of things..

I didn't hear that many people calling on the government to "take control of things". That's the point. The government were by and large giving people what they wanted, namely give-away budgets fuelled by a booming exchequer returns.

_Kaiser_

jmayo wrote: »

And why not compare us to the likes of Finland, Denmark, Netherlands rather than the some of the most ineptly run states in Europe ?

Actually, while I completely agree with the rest of your point/post, I'd have to disagree on this point. We ARE (we were and continue to be) one of the most ineptly run states in Europe.

And therein lies the problem.

micosoft

jmayo wrote: »

Are all the indigenous banks of those countries only alive today thanks to the taxpayers of the state ?
And lets count Cyprus out please as they are defunct thanks to exposure to Greek debt.
And whay not compare us to the likes of Finland, Denmark, Netherlands rather than the some of the most ineptly run states in Europe ?

In todays Irish Times. All of the UK banks aside from Barclays who got bailed out by the Arabs needed to be bailed out. You can compare us to the most ineptly run states because we were ineptly run. That said, all of the countries you flag all had their own property bubbles and collapses.

jmayo wrote: »

Unemploymemnt figures are high in Ireland thanks to fact that the governments of ff allowed competition slip resulting in the loss of real sustainable manufacturing and service jobs that would have actually brought export earnings into this country.
Instead we ended up with an over reliance on the construction and retail related industries.
fff created the environment where the construction industry employed most of the young men in the country.
And that construction industry was soley reliant on the continous flow of cheap credit and Irish people paying way over the ods for property.

It's doubtful we can ever compete on manufacturing. We simply don't have the scale, history or structure to compete in this sector except high end pharma and tech (and pharma is on the way out).
The issue is most of these young men don't want to do service jobs which are menial. immigrants still do those jobs rather then "native" Irish
Not a lot of that has to do with FF, though true - a lot of young men took the option of going into construction that was booming at the time. I'd query if they would have chosen computer science or some other career though if no property boom had occurred.

jmayo wrote: »

And we haven't just entered a recession, we have had to call in the bloody IMF and fgive away our sovereignty.

True, this is not a cyclical recession, rather a fundamental down step in our economy. That said, we've only gone back to 2004!

jmayo wrote: »

It is nice to see the flow of bulls*** is still reaching down to the grassroots.

Tell that to the kids with special needs who need classroom assistance.
Tell that to the kids who get one cochlear implant and may have to wait 18 months to get it replaced if it breaks.
Tell that to people who are being left on trolleys in A&E or in day wards so that the HSE can massage their figures.
Tell that to kids who will be in classrooms with higher teacher pupil ratios than before.
Tell that to the people who have increased taxes due to fact we are paying for wholesale incompetence in the apparatus of state (government, dept of finance, regulatory authorities).

Tell that to all those who are in cripling debt for the rest of their lives.
We have now one of the highest levels of personal debt in the world.
We have now one of the highest levels of soverign debt in the world.

yada yada yada

The worst myth that we cannot let this country of ours get away with is this myth of a "stab in the back" by just a couple of bankers and politicians who ruined it for all of us. All of the above were happy to vote FF and did vote FF when votes were being bought. We the people voted for this disaster. And yes, people are on trolleys because people are unwilling to pay the tax necessary to pay for a health system. The cutbacks you see now are because the growth in our healthcare (and every other state entity) was based on borrowed money, not because we paid for it through tax. So yes - I will tell it to them - you didn't pay the tax, you don't get the service. Simples.
The true irony is that you use the word Kids. Presuming you are against "Austerity" as a policy you are happy to burden our Kids with your debt so that you can live a more comfortable life....

COYW

legrand wrote: »

similar number who are in arrears with their mortgages not to mention the unemployed - you may just find they are a tad more sorry than you!

I think it is a bit much blaming Cowen or any member of that Dail for the excesses and greed of all of the people who are in negative equity. There are some genuine cases but there are plenty who were negligent when it came to their personal finances.

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Finding some scapegoats like Cowen might make people feel better but the reality is that enough people here bought into the madness to make it a national problem.

True; the government of that day didn't just grab power, they were democratically elected by the people, on the back of policies which promoted a credit culture.

Far too many people have decided to absolve themselves of any wrongdoing by laying the blame for their debt at Cowen's door.

jmayo

micosoft wrote: »

In todays Irish Times. All of the UK banks aside from Barclays who got bailed out by the Arabs needed to be bailed out. You can compare us to the most ineptly run states because we were ineptly run. That said, all of the countries you flag all had their own property bubbles and collapses.

Haven't some of the British banks already repaid some of the money ?
Lloyds started repaying back to some extent in 2009.
And I don't think any of the British banks ever were as bad as Anglo/INBS.

None of the property bubbles experienced by the Scandinavians or Netherlands resulted in IMF/EU bailouts AFAIK.
Were all there indigenous banks wiped out ???
Although beware there is a bubble of sorts about to burst over there as their prices have continued to rise even thought the rest of world bar Canada/Aus maybe has collapsed.

micosoft wrote: »

It's doubtful we can ever compete on manufacturing. We simply don't have the scale, history or structure to compete in this sector except high end pharma and tech (and pharma is on the way out).

How does Denmark, Finland, Sweden manage to sustain some levels of manufacturing and in fact in certain areas have manufacturing multinationals.
You are right about us not having a manufacturing history though.

micosoft wrote: »

The issue is most of these young men don't want to do service jobs which are menial. immigrants still do those jobs rather then "native" Irish
Not a lot of that has to do with FF, though true - a lot of young men took the option of going into construction that was booming at the time. I'd query if they would have chosen computer science or some other career though if no property boom had occurred.

Some people left school without finishing, some did leave other jobs to get into construction related areas.
The creation of the bubble and it's feeding through lax taxes, tax incentives, etc were all stoked by ff and that is what created the massive jump in the employment in the sector.
Added to that the increasing cost of accommodation, the increasing cost of anything related to construction, the increased salaries and numbers within the public sector pushed up the cost of doing business in this country which killed out competitivesness even more.

micosoft wrote: »

True, this is not a cyclical recession, rather a fundamental down step in our economy. That said, we've only gone back to 2004!

My ars* we are.
Would you please take a bloody look at our debt levels.
It has a huge bearing on our ability to spend both at a personal and a state level.
And that debt is going nowhere anytime soon.

micosoft wrote: »

yada yada yada

The worst myth that we cannot let this country of ours get away with is this myth of a "stab in the back" by just a couple of bankers and politicians who ruined it for all of us. All of the above were happy to vote FF and did vote FF when votes were being bought. We the people voted for this disaster.

Sunshine I hope you are talking about WE as a nation and not you and me, becasue all of us were not fooking happy to vote for them.

micosoft wrote: »

And yes, people are on trolleys because people are unwilling to pay the tax necessary to pay for a health system. The cutbacks you see now are because the growth in our healthcare (and every other state entity) was based on borrowed money, not because we paid for it through tax. So yes - I will tell it to them - you didn't pay the tax, you don't get the service. Simples.

Bullsh**e.
Peope are on trolleys because ff oversaw the creation of a massive bureaucratic mess called the HSE.
They had a chance to clean up the bureaucracy when they amalgamated the Health Boards, but instead ff bought votes by cowtowing to vested interests.
They had the money to revolutionise healthcare, but instead they just added admin numbers, increased salaries and promoted private health care insitutions which were in effect tax breaks for developers and others.
And bertie started upping numbers when we still had a real celtic tiger economy back in the late 90s and not just on borrowed money that came form construction bubble.

Look at the building of a new childrens hospital and see the mess.
That could have been built on a green field site, one of the major maternity hospitals could have been moved to it and even an adult hospital moved there for what was wasted on the likes of PPARS, electronic voting and bertie's fooking national stadium venture which by the way is still a field full of cattle.

micosoft wrote: »

The true irony is that you use the word Kids. Presuming you are against "Austerity" as a policy you are happy to burden our Kids with your debt so that you can live a more comfortable life....

No I am all for cutting the wastage and generous expenditure out of the public sector, our over generous welfare system and our political establishment.

Just because I don't like ff doesn't mean I am anti cutbacks.
Or are you one of those who think we should thank ff for starting to clean up the mess they created by cutting to bring the budget deficit down ?

I am one of those who believes in living within my means.
Maybe that is why I never liked the shysters who were in ff or the fookers who were lauding them during the good times.

armchair fusilier

COYW wrote: »

I think it is a bit much blaming Cowen or any member of that Dail for the excesses and greed of all of the people who are in negative equity. There are some genuine cases but there are plenty who were negligent when it came to their personal finances.

The Regling/Watson Banking Report stated that Cowen's 2007 Budget added markedly to the overheating of the economy. Government spending increased by more than 11% in 2007 and 2008. The report went on to say that there were opportunities to mitigate the risks and create a cushion to the recession, but that these opportunities were not taken. Instead, "the policies of government and culture in the banks “added fuel to the fire". So a lot more people lost their jobs or had their income reduced then otherwise would have. As a result a lot more people are now having difficultly with their mortgages.

COYW

armchair fusilier wrote: »

The Regling/Watson Banking Report stated that Cowen's 2007 Budget added markedly to the overheating of the economy. Government spending increased by more than 11% in 2007 and 2008. The report went on to say that there were opportunities to mitigate the risks and create a cushion to the recession, but that these opportunities were not taken. Instead, "the policies of government and culture in the banks “added fuel to the fire". So a lot more people lost their jobs or had their income reduced then otherwise would have. As a result a lot more people are now having difficultly with their mortgages.

You are missing the point. There is no doubt that his budget did that but the general public wanted the party to continue. Can you remind me of the parties or TDs who ran for election around that time promoting increases in taxation and cuts in welfare?

How many people were out protesting over that overly generous budget and the fact that it was a danger to the long term health of the country? The answer is none. A sizable majority of the general public, and pretty much all of the opposition were complaining that it was not generous enough.

The government of the day implemented the polices that the people voted them in on. I know this, the truth, doesn't sit well with people out there because it means that they have to accept that they, as an individual who was financially negligent, had a part to play in the mess but it is the real truth. Sadly, too many people out there prefer to bury their heads in the sand and blame Cowen & Co..

armchair fusilier

COYW wrote: »

You are missing the point. There is no doubt that his budget did that but the general public wanted the party to continue. Can you remind me of the parties or TDs who ran for election around that time promoting increases in taxation and cuts in welfare?

How many people were out protesting over that overly generous budget and the fact that it was a danger to the long term health of the country? The answer is none. A sizable majority of the general public, and pretty much all of the opposition were complaining that it was not generous enough.

The government of the day implemented the polices that the people voted them in on. I know this, the truth, doesn't sit well with people out there because it means that they have to accept that they, as an individual who was financially negligent, had a part to play in the mess but it is the real truth. Sadly, too many people out there prefer to bury their heads in the sand and blame Cowen & Co..

An independent review of the performance of the Department of Finance over the past decade found that the Department repeatedly warned the Government about the dangers of the economic policy it was following, but its advice was overruled by the Cabinet. The report found the Department was aware of the dangers of the Government's procyclical economic policy of increasing spending and cutting taxes - and of the overheating of the property and construction sectors, and of the vulnerability of the tax system to a downturn. Only Cowen & Co. were privy to these warnings and they ignored them. In every year except 2003 the Cabinet increased spending above the levels advised by the Department.

micosoft

jmayo wrote: »

Haven't some of the British banks already repaid some of the money ?
Lloyds started repaying back to some extent in 2009.
And I don't think any of the British banks ever were as bad as Anglo/INBS.

None of the property bubbles experienced by the Scandinavians or Netherlands resulted in IMF/EU bailouts AFAIK.
Were all there indigenous banks wiped out ???
Although beware there is a bubble of sorts about to burst over there as their prices have continued to rise even thought the rest of world bar Canada/Aus maybe has collapsed.

My point was that many many other countries including Germany had to bail out banks. The Depfa Bank failure was substantially larger then Anglo.
Bank of Ireland look very likely to pay back their govt dept.
The point being that many other countries had the exact same systematic banking issues as Ireland. The difference being proportion to our economy which is likely when you have a small open economy. We are not unique and the hyperbolic statements that our bankers/politicians above any other worse etc etc is exactly that.

And sure - there are property bubbles all of the time all over the world. There will be a property bubble in Ireland again. Lot's of people discussed prior to the collapse. Foresight does not always lead to action.

jmayo wrote: »

How does Denmark, Finland, Sweden manage to sustain some levels of manufacturing and in fact in certain areas have manufacturing multinationals.
You are right about us not having a manufacturing history though.

With great great difficulty and declining all the time. Vestas in Denmark are struggling against cheap Chinese turbines. Finland was tech - Nokia, which is a shadow of it's former self. Sweden's leaders are being sold - Saab gone, Volvo Chinese owned, Scania sold to MAN (German). Our size, lack of natural resources in quantity, high cost of transport, lack of skilled workforce and extreme global competition mean our manufacturing base (pharma mainly) will decline let alone increase.... it's a pipe dream to pretend we could compete so let's focus where we can compete (services, technology, and yes, banking).

jmayo wrote: »

Some people left school without finishing, some did leave other jobs to get into construction related areas.
The creation of the bubble and it's feeding through lax taxes, tax incentives, etc were all stoked by ff and that is what created the massive jump in the employment in the sector.
Added to that the increasing cost of accommodation, the increasing cost of anything related to construction, the increased salaries and numbers within the public sector pushed up the cost of doing business in this country which killed out competitivesness even more.



My ars* we are.
Would you please take a bloody look at our debt levels.
It has a huge bearing on our ability to spend both at a personal and a state level.
And that debt is going nowhere anytime soon.

The bubble was stoked by everyone, not just FF.

Debt is slowly going away. Much like our debt of the seventies and eighties. Time and inflation will see to that.

jmayo wrote: »

Sunshine I hope you are talking about WE as a nation and not you and me, becasue all of us were not fooking happy to vote for them.

Of course I meant we as a nation. I'm interested though in who YOU would have voted for that had a massive counter cyclical economic policy? Because that is what every party presented for every election after the boom started. Indeed the left were even more outrageous in their spending plans....

jmayo wrote: »

Bullsh**e.
Peope are on trolleys because ff oversaw the creation of a massive bureaucratic mess called the HSE.
They had a chance to clean up the bureaucracy when they amalgamated the Health Boards, but instead ff bought votes by cowtowing to vested interests.
They had the money to revolutionise healthcare, but instead they just added admin numbers, increased salaries and promoted private health care insitutions which were in effect tax breaks for developers and others.
And bertie started upping numbers when we still had a real celtic tiger economy back in the late 90s and not just on borrowed money that came form construction bubble.

Look at the building of a new childrens hospital and see the mess.
That could have been built on a green field site, one of the major maternity hospitals could have been moved to it and even an adult hospital moved there for what was wasted on the likes of PPARS, electronic voting and bertie's fooking national stadium venture which by the way is still a field full of cattle.

Stock tabloid fare that shows you know little about health care systems. HSE is certainly not perfect but in any healthcare system you need backoffice staff. The current idiotic discourse as above is preventing any real discussion on what we want from our health care system. Personally I am of the view that Ireland lacks the scale to operate our own public health care system and that we should look to merging with the NHS.

jmayo wrote: »

No I am all for cutting the wastage and generous expenditure out of the public sector, our over generous welfare system and our political establishment.

Just because I don't like ff doesn't mean I am anti cutbacks.
Or are you one of those who think we should thank ff for starting to clean up the mess they created by cutting to bring the budget deficit down ?

I am one of those who believes in living within my means.
Maybe that is why I never liked the shysters who were in ff or the fookers who were lauding them during the good times.

I'm actually not defending FF. I've never voted for them. What I am arguing against is the stab in the back theory that reduces all of our ills to a couple of FF/Green politicans, bankers and regulators. It's too easy, lazy get out to absolve the Irish People of their responsibility as an electorate. If that does not happen we will fail again as we clearly will not learn any lessons from the past decade.

View

COYW wrote: »

You are missing the point. There is no doubt that his budget did that but the general public wanted the party to continue.

None of which is particularly relevant.

The reason countriess use representative democracy is so their governments and/or parliaments have the freedom to implement short-term unpopular policies should those be in the medium to long term interest of the people. They aren't there to bow to every whim of the electorate.

Should the politicians do so then there is ultimately no point in having elected representatives at all since - with the advent of modern technology - direct democracy on evey piece of legislation (be it boring or not) is theoretically possible. Why should we have the expense of politicians if they are only going to pander to what the majority want at any given moment?

Good loser

armchair fusilier wrote: »

An independent review of the performance of the Department of Finance over the past decade found that the Department repeatedly warned the Government about the dangers of the economic policy it was following, but its advice was overruled by the Cabinet. The report found the Department was aware of the dangers of the Government's procyclical economic policy of increasing spending and cutting taxes - and of the overheating of the property and construction sectors, and of the vulnerability of the tax system to a downturn. Only Cowen & Co. were privy to these warnings and they ignored them. In every year except 2003 the Cabinet increased spending above the levels advised by the Department.

Not true. There were two individuals in Finance that were contrarians but they were overwhelmed by the feelgood/gravytrain consensus. The official view from Finance was that nearly all was fine. As was the official view of the OECD and IMF in 2008.

armchair fusilier

Good loser wrote: »

Not true. There were two individuals in Finance that were contrarians but they were overwhelmed by the feelgood/gravytrain consensus.

Do you have a source for that? Here's the Wright review panel's report...

http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/publications/reports/2011/deptreview.pdf

thebman

micosoft wrote: »

And what exactly was Cowan? A dictator? The Irish Populace voted him in.

A more telling statement he has is that ALL and I mean ALL of the other parties - FG, SF, Lab, Indy's - proposed spending even more then FF. The reality is that any party that attempted to call a halt on the madness would have been laughed at by the electorate and not receive a vote.

Since no party offered this choice, you can't say the electorate would have rejected it.

FG got a massive percentage of the vote in the last election on policies indicating they would cut to restore the health of the economy.

I've never voted FF and never will. But this lazy attempt of blaming a couple of individuals for the crisis when the thing that is broken is the Irish Electorate and their patronage take on politics is the real issue. The proof of it will be when FF get voted into Government next election for the "principled" opposition which is the exact same bull**** sold during the boom. "No to austerity".......

It is just wrong to say the electorate is broken. The electorate voted FG into power with a massive majority on policies of political reform which never happened.

The political system is broken not the electorate.

jmayo

micosoft wrote: »

My point was that many many other countries including Germany had to bail out banks. The Depfa Bank failure was substantially larger then Anglo.

Ehhh you do know why Depfa had to be bailed out ???

Think IFSC and think Irish regulation.
Also think how the German regulators and indeed others had warned about lax Irish regulation and indeed labelled us as the wild west.

micosoft wrote: »

Bank of Ireland look very likely to pay back their govt dept.

Wippee one out of 5 is it ?
That is quiet a return.

You and I know that most of the money spent on Anglo and INBS might as well have been burnt in Ringsend power station.

micosoft wrote: »

The point being that many other countries had the exact same systematic banking issues as Ireland.

Iceland maybe.

micosoft wrote: »

The difference being proportion to our economy which is likely when you have a small open economy. We are not unique and the hyperbolic statements that our bankers/politicians above any other worse etc etc is exactly that.

You may claim I am making hyperbolic statements whereas I think you on the other hand are totally downplaying how trully awful our banking system was ruined.

micosoft wrote: »

And sure - there are property bubbles all of the time all over the world. There will be a property bubble in Ireland again. Lot's of people discussed prior to the collapse. Foresight does not always lead to action.

I think you will find we had one of the worse.
Did the property bubbles elsewhere end up with all the indigenous financial institutions needing bailouts with nearly 40% of them being wiped out ?
Again I think you are downplaying what happened.

micosoft wrote: »

With great great difficulty and declining all the time. Vestas in Denmark are struggling against cheap Chinese turbines. Finland was tech - Nokia, which is a shadow of it's former self. Sweden's leaders are being sold - Saab gone, Volvo Chinese owned, Scania sold to MAN (German).

I think you mean Volvo cars.
Volvo trucks are still based out of Gotenburg and are one of the largest truck manufacturers in the world.
They own Renault trucks, Mack trucks and Volvo Construction Equipment (VOlvo BM).
Scania is indeed majority owned by Man (VW Group), but it still is manufacturing in Sweden.
One of Swedens greatest multinational successes is of course IKEA and I presume a lot of those flatpack units are manufactured in Sweden.

Denmark have Lego, Hempel, Novozymes.

As for Finland, it aint just Nokia.
You have SISU, Valtra/Valmet (owned by AGCO granted), Fiskars, Kone.

micosoft wrote: »

Our size, lack of natural resources in quantity, high cost of transport, lack of skilled workforce and extreme global competition mean our manufacturing base (pharma mainly) will decline let alone increase.... it's a pipe dream to pretend we could compete so let's focus where we can compete (services, technology, and yes, banking).

The bubble was stoked by everyone, not just FF.

Who was in charge ?
A lot of people did buy into the bubble (pardon the pun), but who were the ones actually in charge of state policy.
Ever heard the maxim "the bucks stops here" ?
I know it is a rare thing in Irish society.

micosoft wrote: »

Debt is slowly going away. Much like our debt of the seventies and eighties. Time and inflation will see to that.

What is inflation at the moment ?
And meanwhile for the next 20 odd years what do whilst all this debt is going away ?

micosoft wrote: »

Of course I meant we as a nation. I'm interested though in who YOU would have voted for that had a massive counter cyclical economic policy? Because that is what every party presented for every election after the boom started. Indeed the left were even more outrageous in their spending plans....

I do recall Labour complaining about property speculation and continuing tax incentives.
I do recall FG complaining about us loosing our competitiveness.
Granted they both ended up engaging in trying to buy votes like bertie.
The incumbents set the tone.

micosoft wrote: »

Stock tabloid fare that shows you know little about health care systems. HSE is certainly not perfect but in any healthcare system you need backoffice staff.

Yes we know you need backoffice staff, but we ended up with duplication when the opposite should have occurred.
And I know of back end departments which increased numbers so that new management positions could be created.
Trust me I know a fair amount about our public health system and how hard they are to deal with.

micosoft wrote: »

The current idiotic discourse as above is preventing any real discussion on what we want from our health care system. Personally I am of the view that Ireland lacks the scale to operate our own public health care system and that we should look to merging with the NHS.

Yeah lets take the duplication even further.

micosoft wrote: »

I'm actually not defending FF. I've never voted for them. What I am arguing against is the stab in the back theory that reduces all of our ills to a couple of FF/Green politicans, bankers and regulators. It's too easy, lazy get out to absolve the Irish People of their responsibility as an electorate. If that does not happen we will fail again as we clearly will not learn any lessons from the past decade.

[/QUOTE]

Oh don't worry your head there, I blame a lot more people than a few bankers, regulators and politicans.
Too many people climbed aboard the property bandwagon.

Good loser

armchair fusilier wrote: »

Do you have a source for that? Here's the Wright review panel's report...

http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/publications/reports/2011/deptreview.pdf

Para 9 Page 6 of your ref does not support your contention re DOF's advice.

My source is 'The Fall of the Celtic Tiger' by Donovan and Murphy. They are generally unimpressed with the Wright report (Ps 111 to 114) noting 'The report leaves the impression that little or no macroeconomic or financial analysis was undertaken, apart from that geared to preparation of the budget, per se.'

Zubeneschamali

thebman wrote: »

The electorate voted FG into power with a massive majority

I must have missed that election result. What year was that?

micosoft

thebman wrote: »

Since no party offered this choice, you can't say the electorate would have rejected it.

FG got a massive percentage of the vote in the last election on policies indicating they would cut to restore the health of the economy.



It is just wrong to say the electorate is broken. The electorate voted FG into power with a massive majority on policies of political reform which never happened.

The political system is broken not the electorate.

Disingeneous. No party would get elected with an anti-cyclical policies because that's what the electorate want is pro cyclical. The policies parties present are the policies they could get votes for. To suggest some party would suicidally go against that flow to be annihilated is naive in the extreme.

FG were not voted in with a massive majority. Seriously, if you aren't even aware that we have a coalition in place you support my point the electorate are broken.

Again. The electorate are broken until they understand the connection between tax and expenditure and sustainablity of bot. The politicans we get are the politicians we deserve.

golfball37

Gas to see the FF apologists trying to rewrite history already.

Remind me what the advice was to McWillams and others who warned that this party couldn't go on? Go commit suicide or words to that effect. You only have to see Charlie McCreevy on Reeling in the years to get a reminder of what they were all about.

If Cowan is so sorry he should hand back his state driver, garda escort and pension.

The original FF fought and died to free this country but bit by bit the crowd who followed fecked it away for personal gain, culminating in the arrival of the IMF. Thats the only history my kids will be taught.

thebman

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I must have missed that election result. What year was that?

micosoft wrote: »

FG were not voted in with a massive majority. Seriously, if you aren't even aware that we have a coalition in place you support my point the electorate are broken.

Seriously if you aren't aware by majority I was referring to the majority in the coalition, something must be wrong with you given we always have coalitions in this country....

micosoft wrote: »

Disingeneous. No party would get elected with an anti-cyclical policies because that's what the electorate want is pro cyclical. The policies parties present are the policies they could get votes for. To suggest some party would suicidally go against that flow to be annihilated is naive in the extreme.

It isn't disingenuous and it isn't suicide since no party tried, you can't make these statements.

These are all just assumptions on your part to support your preconceived mindset that this is what the electorate want and it makes up part of the problem with politics in this country.

There is no evidence that the Irish people don't want a stable, functioning economy with reasonable growth over boom/bust cycles. Only evidence that the political system has failed catastrophically to offer such an alternative that they could vote for.

What is wrong with Irish politics is exactly this lack of respect for the electorate and what they are looking for.

micosoft

thebman wrote: »

Seriously if you aren't aware by majority I was referring to the majority in the coalition, something must be wrong with you given we always have coalitions in this country....

No, because I suspect very few people in this country hold your frankly bizarre interpretation of a "massive majority". You should be a contender in Rio for tautological gymnastics with that one.

thebman wrote: »

It isn't disingenuous and it isn't suicide since no party tried, you can't make these statements.

These are all just assumptions on your part to support your preconceived mindset that this is what the electorate want and it makes up part of the problem with politics in this country.

And why has no party tried. Answer me that.

thebman wrote: »

There is no evidence that the Irish people don't want a stable, functioning economy with reasonable growth over boom/bust cycles. Only evidence that the political system has failed catastrophically to offer such an alternative that they could vote for.

They elected FF into power three times from 97 - 07 on the basis of giveaway budgets. Where is your evidence that they do?

thebman wrote: »

What is wrong with Irish politics is exactly this lack of respect for the electorate and what they are looking for.

The lack of respect is entirely due to understanding that persons such as yourself vote...

What do we want! "stable, functioning economy with reasonable growth over boom/bust cycles"!
Who will we vote for! " That politician that will sort out the retrospective planning, cut taxes, build a local a&e down the boreen etc etc etc"

thebman

micosoft wrote: »

And why has no party tried. Answer me that.

Our political parties aren't exactly known for thinking outside the box or fresh thinking now are they?

They elected FF into power three times from 97 - 07 on the basis of giveaway budgets. Where is your evidence that they do?

And what where the alternatives in that time only bigger give away budgets? I'm tired of hearing FF defend their give away budgets of previous years now they are in opposition by saying their budgets were more conservative than the oppositions proposals for more spending.

By your assertions, the electorate should have been voting for the opposition since they would have given even more away.

Didn't work for the opposition though as the electorate where actually voting for the party offering the budget giving away the least at the time.

The lack of respect is entirely due to understanding that persons such as yourself vote...

What do we want! "stable, functioning economy with reasonable growth over boom/bust cycles"!
Who will we vote for! " That politician that will sort out the retrospective planning, cut taxes, build a local a&e down the boreen etc etc etc"

Right so after a number of posts on this, basically your still just assuming the electorate have no interest in proper policies with absolutely nothing to back this up bar a sense of arrogance over anyone that cares to disagree...

Have you considered a career in politics :pac:

View

thebman wrote: »

And what where the alternatives in that time only bigger give away budgets?

In '97, FG & Labour were the governing parties. They did not go to the polls advocating "giveaway" budgets. It is a serious re-write of history to suggest that the electorate voted for FF & the PDs because they thought they'd be more restrained in office than FG & Labour.

Likewise, in '02, when the economy had been running okay, Labour proposed a totally different strategy to that of the government's giveaway "low taxes" policies which were - even at that time - clearly causing property prices to soar. And, the response of the electorate to Labour's alternative ideas was to hammer them.

As such, it is nonsense to say there was no alternative. There was but people preferred us to pursue the policies we did. And we did so until the bitter end...

micosoft

thebman wrote: »

Our political parties aren't exactly known for thinking outside the box or fresh thinking now are they?

But they are well known for doing anything that will get them a vote.

thebman wrote: »

And what where the alternatives in that time only bigger give away budgets? I'm tired of hearing FF defend their give away budgets of previous years now they are in opposition by saying their budgets were more conservative than the oppositions proposals for more spending.

By your assertions, the electorate should have been voting for the opposition since they would have given even more away.

Didn't work for the opposition though as the electorate where actually voting for the party offering the budget giving away the least at the time.

Rewrite of history. Plenty of options - the Greens offered a strong and coherent policy on housing for example.

thebman wrote: »

Right so after a number of posts on this, basically your still just assuming the electorate have no interest in proper policies with absolutely nothing to back this up bar a sense of arrogance over anyone that cares to disagree...

Have you considered a career in politics :pac:

Unlike you I don't pretend the electorate voted for something they manifestly did vote for. I presented three general elections as evidence. What have you provided other then your own overweening opinion as a "voice of the people" suggesting that the electorate may have voted for Fianna Fail three times in a row but really didn't you know, mean it and if the politicians were any good they would have ignored their mandate and run the country properly. An unaccountable electorate. Nice.

Tell you what - given the politicians are so bereft of ideas why don't you stand?

Slick50

goose2005 wrote: »

That was Fine Gael's policy in 2002 - they were annihilated.

Have you any links to support that? This is what I've come across...

Fine Gael has launched its election manifesto in Dublin, promising a new 30% tax rate for moderate wage earners.

Fianna Fáil's Charlie McCreevey said the scope for tax cuts was limited.


&.... 1. Create health services that work, ensuring that cost and capacity don’t prevent people from getting treatment that is high quality, timely and close to home. That means:
- Planned expansion of vital capacity (2,300 Acute Beds, 1,500 Convalescence).
- Free Health Insurance for every child under 16.
- Free GP visits for every child under 5.
- Confront the rise of suicide.
- Extend medical cards to 100,000 more families.
and plenty more "giveaway" sh*te.