The State of Archaeology in Ireland today

Witchburner

Meathlass wrote: »

Need a bit of clarity on this in case I misheard.

There's a radio ad for Discover Ireland detailing places to visit. One of which is Knocknarea and Queen Maeve's tomb in Sligo. The ad suggested that visitors (to paraphrase) 'leave a stone on top of the tomb for good luck'.

Did I really hear that?! Are Discover Ireland advocating alteration of a National Monument?

Please, someone tell me, I'm going deaf and I misheard.

Meathlass wrote: »

Email sent to Discover Ireland



To whom it may concern,

I am writing to lodge a complaint about a radio advertisement currently running on national radio advertising places to visit in Ireland.

During the advertisement visitors are encouraged to leave a stone on top of Queen Maeve's tomb on Knocknarae for 'good luck'. This is advocating alteration and destruction of a National Monument site. This suggestion is also repeated on your website "Her tomb at the summit of Knocknarea is bound with superstitions. They say if you bring a stone and leave it at the top of the mound, good luck will come from the Queen herself. Dare to take a stone from the mound, and bad luck will follow you all the way home…"

The following is the relevant parts of The National Monuments (Amendments) Act 2004.

14.—(1) In respect of a national monument of which the Minister or a local authority are the owners or the guardians or in respect of which a preservation order is in force, it shall not be lawful for any person to do any of the following things in relation to such national monument:

(a) to demolish or remove it wholly or in part or to disfigure, deface, alter, or in any manner injure or interfere with it, or

(b) to excavate, dig, plough or otherwise disturb the ground within, around, or in proximity to it, or

(c) to renovate or restore it, or

(d) to sell it or any part of it for exportation or to export it or any part of it,

without the consent referred to in subsection (2) of this section or otherwise than in accordance with such consent.

5) A person who contravenes subsection (1) of this section is guilty of an offence and is liable—

(a) on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding €3,000 or, at the discretion of the Court, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or to both, or

(b) on conviction on indictment, to a fine not exceeding €10,000,000 or, at the discretion of the Court, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5 years or to both.

While I appreciate there is no malicious intention on behalf of Discover Ireland to disfigure archaeological sites I would suggest that your radio advertisement is misleading and may contribute to this damaging superstitious practice.

I look forward to receiving your response.

Yours sincerely,
Meathlass

I reckon its a great idea. The yanks will love it and it will clear up some of the loose stones on the way up to it.
Tis a little over-rated therefore adding an attraction /superstition will add to the revenue it will generate.

Using the opening posters train of thought should we stop kissing the Blarney stone? look at the damage they've done to the grounds, the magnificent spiral staircase, the stonework and of course all that saliva on the stone itself - criminal damage. But tolerated because its tolerable?

Look what it has achieved for the Blarney area in Cork/Ireland/America/World!

The tomb has a history of superstition therefore why shouldn't this be accentuated and promoted to bring some much needed revenue to the area.

We could improve the access and fund possible future exploration and archaeology investigations.

Lets face it folks, unless us Archaeologists get our head around a modern way of promoting our work we'll die out and become fossils - which many of us already are.

WE HAVE NO FUNDING OR BUSINESS LIKE LEADERS WHO UNDERSTAND FUNDING.

We should be opening up our minds a little.

We need to start being progressive and to move with society - as an occupation we tend to be very sour and stuffy and more than condescending - so says my wife anyway and she's never wrong!

Ok - come and get me - its an opinion - no need to be stoning me ('scuse the pun)

robp

Witchburner wrote: »

I reckon its a great idea. The yanks will love it and it will clear up some of the loose stones on the way up to it.
Tis a little over-rated therefore adding an attraction /superstition will add to the revenue it will generate.

Using the opening posters train of thought should we stop kissing the Blarney stone? look at the damage they've done to the grounds, the magnificent spiral staircase, the stonework and of course all that saliva on the stone itself - criminal damage. But tolerated because its tolerable?

Look what it has achieved for the Blarney area in Cork/Ireland/America/World!

The tomb has a history of superstition therefore why shouldn't this be accentuated and promoted to bring some much needed revenue to the area.

We could improve the access and fund possible future exploration and archaeology investigations.

Lets face it folks, unless us Archaeologists get our head around a modern way of promoting our work we'll die out and become fossils - which many of us already are.

WE HAVE NO FUNDING OR BUSINESS LIKE LEADERS WHO UNDERSTAND FUNDING.

We should be opening up our minds a little.

We need to start being progressive and to move with society - as an occupation we tend to be very sour and stuffy and more than condescending - so says my wife anyway and she's never wrong!

Ok - come and get me - its an opinion - no need to be stoning me ('scuse the pun)

Sounds like a piss take? How exactly is it a overrated monument? Those trying to push mass tourism are not going to have much luck on a monument on top of a mountain. Tourists seeking culture will appreciate it with awe knowing its never been disturbed and won't feel the need to throw stones at it. No on is trying to ban the old lore. Discover Ireland can still tell visitors of the misfortune that taking a stone will incur.

Witchburner

robp wrote: »

Sounds like a piss take? How exactly is it a overrated monument? Those trying to push mass tourism are not going to have much luck on a monument on top of a mountain. Tourists seeking culture will appreciate it with awe knowing its never been disturbed and won't feel the need to throw stones at it. No on is trying to ban the old lore. Discover Ireland can still tell visitors of the misfortune that taking a stone will incur.

I appreciate that my comment was flippant and apologise for same if I offended anyone however lets not get stuck on it - and for the record, it says leave a stone not take a stone.

Having a response typical to our profession (presuming its your profession) - immediate attack instead of talking it through or in the least thinking it through - is why we are fading out - look at the poor lad who just qualified and now hasn't a clue what to do. The best advice in that thread its to leave Ireland -

---

I mean what is that about? Sickening. And its the older generations fault.

If we go to the government with an angle - that might attract tourists - then we should - and then use said angle to secure funding and stop this mysticism we surround ourselves and archaeology with and to fund more work.

The public own our work for crying out loud - so let them have it.

We need to attract students of history who want to bring the occupation into the 21st century.

No longer are the secrets of old - locked in brains guarded by bearded men - the secrets are more readily available - on line - anyone can read them and find out information.

Either we change or we are lost - ironic that, isn't it?

robp

Witchburner wrote: »

I appreciate that my comment was flippant and apologise for same if I offended anyone however lets not get stuck on it - and for the record, it says leave a stone not take a stone.

Having a response typical to our profession (presuming its your profession) - immediate attack instead of talking it through or in the least thinking it through - is why we are fading out - look at the poor lad who just qualified and now hasn't a clue what to do. The best advice in that thread its to leave Ireland -

---

I mean what is that about? Sickening. And its the older generations fault.

If we go to the government with an angle - that might attract tourists - then we should - and then use said angle to secure funding and stop this mysticism we surround ourselves and archaeology with and to fund more work.

The public own our work for crying out loud - so let them have it.

We need to attract students of history who want to bring the occupation into the 21st century.

I agree this is a time for innovation. However the reason there is little employment is due to the collapse in building. Construction once employed 1,700 people but it now employs around only around 300 people. This is the only reason. It bears no reflection on the older generation of archaeologists. Archaeologists are not to blame for the economic collapse.

There may be opportunities for more cultural tourism in Ireland. Archaeologists may be able to contribute to this. Archaeologist's professional experience may be able to enhance tourists' experiences. The professional body (the IAI) is pushing this. Yet if this materialises it will be a case of archaeologists working in partnership part time with the tourist industry or former archaeologists working in the tourism industry.

See I don't see how tourism will pay for new digs. An archaeologists is someone who studies the past. Once they give all their time as a tour guide they are now a former archaeologist. More heritage tourism would be absolutely fantastic but we should be clear about what it exactly means. I would love to see more.

I don't recall archaeologist surrounding themselves in any mysticism to be honest. If we have a public image problem it is the cliché of scruffy dope smoking hippies.

If you have a workable idea how increase to employment I am sure the IAI would be delighted to hear from you.

Witchburner

robp wrote: »

I agree this is a time for innovation. However the reason there is little employment is due to the collapse in building. Construction once employed 1,700 people but it now employs around only around 300 people. This is the only reason. It bears no reflection on the older generation of archaeologists. Archaeologists are not to blame for the economic collapse.

There may be opportunities for more cultural tourism in Ireland. Archaeologists may be able to contribute to this. Archaeologist's professional experience may be able to enhance tourists' experiences. The professional body (the IAI) is pushing this. Yet if this materialises it will be a case of archaeologists working in partnership part time with the tourist industry or former archaeologists working in the tourism industry.

See I don't see how tourism will pay for new digs. An archaeologists is someone who studies the past. Once they give all their time as a tour guide they are now a former archaeologist. More heritage tourism would be absolutely fantastic but we should be clear about what it exactly means. I would love to see more.

I don't recall archaeologist surrounding themselves in any mysticism to be honest. If we have a public image problem it is the cliché of scruffy dope smoking hippies.

If you have a workable idea how increase to employment I am sure the IAI would be delighted to hear from you.

I laughed at your reference to pot - very funny - whilst I don't part-take its a silly illegality.

In relation to your comments about building - this is exactly where you and I will disagree -
We attempted to make a profession by leeching onto another and charging developers for the pleasure of an archaeological team disrupting their site whilst they were hammered by the contractors for delay and disruption on the other - the most seriously flawed move we have made - in our professional history - I guarantee more archaeological sites were covered up between the period 1998 - 2008 then throughout the ages - it was a disgrace that we bought into this false economy (not the boom bust economy but the attachment of our livelihood to developers). Seriously - we were overtaken by greed - and we should all hang our heads in shame - instead of looking to develop our profession and encourage the younger generation to take interest we saw a paycheck and ignored the flaws in our paltry steps forward.

We are guilty by association and desperately require a new direction.

If tourism is an avenue to help kick start everything again then so be it.

Whilst I am not blind to the hypocrisy of what I am saying (i.e. whats the difference between building and tourism) I will no longer subscribe to traditionalist thinking.

Archaeology belongs to the people and it should be given over to them.

What we have given them is archaeology covered in concrete buildings.

There was many the blind eye turned during the boom years.


Getting back on subject - and apologies for the rant -

Tourism, of course, will not pay for new digs - on its own - but if it was contributing as part of a broad scheme of professional investments - it could certainly help.

Incidentally - mountains do tend to attract people - lots of people actually -

Gee Bag

Witchburner,

I genuinely have no idea what your rambling posts are about. Your grasp of the basics of both Archaeology and Economics appears to be tenuos at best.

Here's a link for a report commissioned by the Heritage Council which lays out the economic value of the heritage sector to Ireland's economy which estimates it's about €1.5bn, primarily generated through tourism.

http://www.heritagecouncil.ie/fileadmin/user_upload/Publications/Corporate/Economic_Evaluation_of_the_Historic_Environment_Ireland.pdf

The state uses the revenue gained from tourism to directly fund archaeology in ireland directly by funding for museums, third level education, research (discovery programme), the National Monuments Service and maintaining historic sites through the OPW. Indirectly the state funds archaeology by spending on infrastructure. Of course I'd like them to spend more but the money is just not there at present.

slowburner

So, how is archaeology surviving as a profession, a guardian of national heritage and a pillar of research in the noughties recession?
Where does it go from here?

robp

Witchburner wrote: »

I laughed at your reference to pot - very funny - whilst I don't part-take its a silly illegality.

In relation to your comments about building - this is exactly where you and I will disagree -
We attempted to make a profession by leeching onto another and charging developers for the pleasure of an archaeological team disrupting their site whilst they were hammered by the contractors for delay and disruption on the other - the most seriously flawed move we have made - in our professional history - I guarantee more archaeological sites were covered up between the period 1998 - 2008 then throughout the ages - it was a disgrace that we bought into this false economy (not the boom bust economy but the attachment of our livelihood to developers). Seriously - we were overtaken by greed - and we should all hang our heads in shame - instead of looking to develop our profession and encourage the younger generation to take interest we saw a paycheck and ignored the flaws in our paltry steps forward.

We are guilty by association and desperately require a new direction.

If tourism is an avenue to help kick start everything again then so be it.

Whilst I am not blind to the hypocrisy of what I am saying (i.e. whats the difference between building and tourism) I will no longer subscribe to traditionalist thinking.

Archaeology belongs to the people and it should be given over to them.

What we have given them is archaeology covered in concrete buildings.

There was many the blind eye turned during the boom years.


Getting back on subject - and apologies for the rant -

Tourism, of course, will not pay for new digs - on its own - but if it was contributing as part of a broad scheme of professional investments - it could certainly help.

Incidentally - mountains do tend to attract people - lots of people actually -

The Irish system works under the polluter pays principle. If you damage a site you have to pay a private company to document it. Its an imperfect system but its fair as it does not put the expense of archaeology on the tax payer or the conscientious developer who avoids the archaeology. If the cost of excavation is too high the development can be moved to another location. This occurs. Actually the planning permission may require this. Their are not many other viable systems. In France the state does the archaeology but levies a flat tax on all developments. Imo that is less fair. Imperfect as the Irish system is there were still 1000-2000 excavations every year during the height of the boom. Many local museums have nice collection created during this huge wave of archaeology work.

longhalloween

robp wrote: »

Imperfect as the Irish system is there were still 1000-2000 excavations every year during the height of the boom. Many local museums have nice collection created during this huge wave of archaeology work.

Has much of the data from these excavations been analysed yet or is it still boxed up in the National Museum?

robp

longhalloween wrote: »

Has much of the data from these excavations been analysed yet or is it still boxed up in the National Museum?

The basic requirement is that it is published but there is often a lot more research that is possible as time progresses maybe done by young PhDs or international teams. The digs on road schemes have a good rate of publication. All most all are published. The National Roads Authority has published something like 20 books and has an annual conference and journal. Those not on roads schemes are less good. The work the National Roads Authority has done is really exemplary.

I'd say sites before around 2004 have a poorer record of publication and I am afraid to say often some digs which were purely research in the first place like Lough Boora or Inishcealtra were never published. Although publication is obligatory often the money to pay for it is not available. With online publishing this problem is easier to avoid.

Witchburner

slowburner wrote: »

So, how is archaeology surviving as a profession, a guardian of national heritage and a pillar of research in the noughties recession?
Where does it go from here?

Do you even read what you type?

Pillar of research?
Guardian of national heritage?

I'm a little embarrassed for you to be honest.
Again.

slowburner

Witchburner wrote: »

Do you even read what you type?

Pillar of research?
Guardian of national heritage?

I'm a little embarrassed for you to be honest.
Again.

Why are you embarrassed?

Witchburner

slowburner wrote: »

Why are you embarrassed?

I had actually typed a long answer to that.
I deleted it.

I'm convinced that it really doesn't matter what I type when it comes to you- I have watched your policing of this forum. You leap long before your brain registers the need to look.

There are others posters here who, whilst they have strong opinions, are open to debate and welcome perspective. They engage, read, contemplate and then answer.

I do not regard you in this bracket and I would prefer to continue this thread without your input - despite the fact that you already removed it from its original context.
I appreciate you're a mod but that doesn't necessarily mean you have to enforce your opinion on every poster and every thread.

Is it possible for you to leave this thread continue without the input of a "Pillar of research" or "Guardian of national heritage"?

It wasn't long ago that the Catholic Church were "Pillars of society" and "Guardians of our faith".

robp

Witchburner wrote: »

I had actually typed a long answer to that.
I deleted it.

I'm convinced that it really doesn't matter what I type when it comes to you- I have watched your policing of this forum. You leap long before your brain registers the need to look.

There are others posters here who, whilst they have strong opinions, are open to debate and welcome perspective. They engage, read, contemplate and then answer.

I do not regard you in this bracket and I would prefer to continue this thread without your input - despite the fact that you already removed it from its original context.
I appreciate you're a mod but that doesn't necessarily mean you have to enforce your opinion on every poster and every thread.

Is it possible for you to leave this thread continue without the input of a "Pillar of research" or "Guardian of national heritage"?

It wasn't long ago that the Catholic Church were "Pillars of society" and "Guardians of our faith".

Archaeology is indeed a pillar of research and a guardian of national heritage. That is its purpose and reality. Archaeologists, historians and those in the odd sister discipline are the only ones making insights into Ireland's past. And indeed for the matter the Catholic Church is still very much a pillar of Irish society, just one of many.

Witchburner

robp wrote: »

Archaeology is indeed a pillar of research and a guardian of national heritage. That is its purpose and reality. Archaeologists, historians and those in the odd sister discipline are the only ones making insights into Ireland's past. And indeed for the matter the Catholic Church is still very much a pillar of Irish society, just one of many.

Oh dear robp that's a terribly depressing opinion and I truly hope not a representation of all of those here. Are you really that blinkered?

Before I leave this - would you not agree that said Catholic Church is one of the great thieves of Archaeology AND history - in the world? And are deserving of all archaeologists scorn?

cfuserkildare

Hmm

"Before I leave this - would you not agree that said Catholic Church is one of the great thieves of Archaeology AND history - in the world? And are deserving of all archaeologists scorn? "

That would depend on whether we still follow the flat earth theory, or the 1 that says anything we find in the ground is simply put there by God to test our faith, or any 1 of many other wacky theories that have come from Rome in the past.

robp

Witchburner wrote: »

Before I leave this - would you not agree that said Catholic Church is one of the great thieves of Archaeology AND history - in the world? And are deserving of all archaeologists scorn?

I don't know why you think that. Most of the flashy objects between the start of recorded Irish history to roughly AD 1400 are church commissioned art. So its actually the reverse in the case of Ireland.

I don't want to drift off topic from what is a worthy discussion but I won't let baseless smears go unchallenged.

So to keep the ball rolling I will say that slowburner's statement wasn't in the least bit controversial.

robp

cfuserkildare wrote: »

Hmm

"Before I leave this - would you not agree that said Catholic Church is one of the great thieves of Archaeology AND history - in the world? And are deserving of all archaeologists scorn? "

That would depend on whether we still follow the flat earth theory, or the 1 that says anything we find in the ground is simply put there by God to test our faith, or any 1 of many other wacky theories that have come from Rome in the past.

No one ever believed the earth was flat, atleast not educated people. Its an urban myth. The CC supports natural selection / evolution. The Vatican specifically sponsors archaeological research through the The Pontifical Academy of Archaeology, which is more more then metal detectorists ever did.

Witchburner

cfuserkildare wrote: »

Hmm

"Before I leave this - would you not agree that said Catholic Church is one of the great thieves of Archaeology AND history - in the world? And are deserving of all archaeologists scorn? "

That would depend on whether we still follow the flat earth theory, or the 1 that says anything we find in the ground is simply put there by God to test our faith, or any 1 of many other wacky theories that have come from Rome in the past.

How about buying your way out of purgatory?
Their links with the mafia.
The assassinations of many of their popes.
The corruption of the Vatican bank.

It really goes on and on and on.

Have you been to the Vatican? the wealth alone is enough to underline their corruption. Whilst the rest of the world died around them in poverty they lived like the kings of kings.

And don't get me started on the pope!

The dissection of South America.

The theft of all of the South Americans gold, silver, jewels, people.

Slavery.

Oppression.

Ethnic cleansing.

robp wrote: »

I don't know why you think that. Most of the flashy objects between the start of recorded Irish history to roughly AD 1400 are church commissioned art. So its actually the reverse in the case of Ireland.

I don't want to drift off topic from what is a worthy discussion but I won't let baseless smears go unchallenged.

So to keep the ball rolling I will say that slowburner's statement wasn't in the least bit controversial.

No necessarily just Irish archaeology, art and history - I'm referring to the bigger picture - and then the churches sins are in real terms archaeological and historical rape

---

ooooh now there's a word we could explore further.

robp wrote: »

No one ever believed the earth was flat, atleast not educated people. Its an urban myth. The CC supports natural selection / evolution. The Vatican specifically sponsors archaeological research through the The Pontifical Academy of Archaeology, which is more more then metal detectorists ever did.

Some might differ with that statement Rob

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth

Coming back to topic - because this one is a little bit sickly - how many current digs are underway in this country with are not related to developments?

Genuine question.

Witchburner

robp wrote: »

I don't know why you think that. Most of the flashy objects between the start of recorded Irish history to roughly AD 1400 are church commissioned art. So its actually the reverse in the case of Ireland.

I don't want to drift off topic from what is a worthy discussion but I won't let baseless smears go unchallenged.

So to keep the ball rolling I will say that slowburner's statement wasn't in the least bit controversial.

Flashy objects? - what are we mackerel?

Meathlass

I seem to have wandered into the Catholic church bashing thread.

*Excuse me, I'll just go off to find the Archaeology forum.

Meathlass

Witchburner wrote: »

Coming back to topic - because this one is a little bit sickly - how many current digs are underway in this country with are not related to developments?

Genuine question.

A friend of mine took out a licence this summer and it was only in the mid 300's. Low numbers to be sure when compared to the years when development was creating the opportunity and requirement for sites to be excavated.

There are so many other ways to get archaeological information and excavation is only a small one and really should always be a last resort. There are some really good research excavations taking place now which are trying to answer specific questions rather than having to dig everything which is the case in a rescue dig.

I'd prefer to see more geophysics and regional fieldwalking and surveys.

robp

Witchburner wrote: »

Some might differ with that statement Rob

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth

Some might agree to differ on that statement witchburner.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_Flat_Earth
Educated Europeans did not believe in a flat earth in Medieval times. If they did why did Columbus sail to America in the hope of reaching India.
Apart from the random rant on stuff that have nothing to do with archaeology or the RCC and a lot to do with European colonialism you had some worthy discussion points earlier.

Witchburner wrote: »

Coming back to topic - because this one is a little bit sickly - how many current digs are underway in this country with are not related to developments?

Genuine question.

Non development digs run in summer only. Winter rain can hinder excavation and academics often teach in winter. The number of purely research excavations every year is quite low. I am going to suggest it is the region of 10-20 in the republic of Ireland but I am not sure about this number. It has declined in recent years due to the dramatic reductions in the budget of the Heritage Council. They tend to be very selective and far harder hitting then your average rescue dig.

Witchburner

Meathlass wrote: »

I seem to have wandered into the Catholic church bashing thread.

*Excuse me, I'll just go off to find the Archaeology forum.

Perhaps people could bash the catholic church whilst hurling stones at the tomb - it could be called "throwing obscenity rocks"!
Nothing wrong with a bit of church bashing anyway - tis good for the soul

slowburner

Oh for goodness sake. Leave this drivel out of the forum. If you want to debate theology, go and find another forum to troll.

slowburner

Witchburner wrote: »

I had actually typed a long answer to that.
I deleted it.

I'm convinced that it really doesn't matter what I type when it comes to you- I have watched your policing of this forum. You leap long before your brain registers the need to look.

There are others posters here who, whilst they have strong opinions, are open to debate and welcome perspective. They engage, read, contemplate and then answer.

I do not regard you in this bracket and I would prefer to continue this thread without your input - despite the fact that you already removed it from its original context.
I appreciate you're a mod but that doesn't necessarily mean you have to enforce your opinion on every poster and every thread.

Is it possible for you to leave this thread continue without the input of a "Pillar of research" or "Guardian of national heritage"?

It wasn't long ago that the Catholic Church were "Pillars of society" and "Guardians of our faith".

I have engaged, read and contemplated your posts.
They are not relevant to this thread or indeed, this forum.
Furthermore, you have been engaging in back seat moderating.
Read and contemplate the forum charter before you answer.
Note sections IX. and XI. in particular.

The tone of your posting is simply unpleasant.

Take this as a warning.

slowburner

A blog on some of the unspoken challenges facing archaeologists in Ireland today.
http://rmchapple.blogspot.co.uk

The transitory nature and uncertain future of archaeology can throw up all sorts of personal problems.
This article brings these issues into the light of day in an admirable, honest and uncomfortable discussion.