Irish babys grandparents raising grandchild in China

emmabrighton

One of the girls in my office is returning to work after 6 months on maternity leave. Fair enough, times are tough, I couldn't take the full 11 months off either or go part time. But the real kicker is while she is returning to work, her baby is heading back to China. She is never going to see her baby :eek:. And by never I mean at most once a year. I cried every day when I had to go back to work and spent the last month of my maternity leave fretting that D-Day was drawing ever nearer.

Apparently this is the custom/ cultural norm. It has me wondering what I am going to talk about with her when she returns. Should I console her or is this totally natural for her? I feel so sorry for her and her baby but I assume she is happy with the decision for her baby to move 10,000 km away otherwise she wouldn't be doing it.

Having your child's grandmother raise the baby - so long as she is capable - would be preferable, in my eyes, to being in a creche all day. But, never seeing my child? I am sorry, I just couldn't do it.

I wonder if there are other shocking - to Irish people - cultural norms relating to child raring out there.

nikpmup

A girl I work with has just returned to the Philippines after 12 years. Her 3 children are there with her husband and grandparents. She travelled home once a year to see them. Doesn't make sense to me at all, but apparently quite common.

pwurple

Have you seen the 2009 chinese film Last Train Home?
It's about this exact thing, chinese parents who migrate to work and leave their children with grandparents.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1512201/

emmabrighton

I am so torn on this one. My heart tells me that this is an awful situation for a parent and a child to be put in but my p.c. brigade mind tells me not to be so closed minded.

So the couple wont have to pay 1000k per month in child care but, for me, that would never out weigh the precious moments I spend with my son.

I won't even go away for a night let alone leave my son with my mother.

Any migrant parents out there? How do you get over the conflicted feelings?

I suppose single parents must feel the same way. i.e. the dad/mom who doesn't live with their bub and only gets to see them once or twice a week.

fleet

It's cultural.
Money is king and never seen as vulgar (makes a great gift etc). So saving it is of great import.
People retire at 55, so grandparents are expected to look after the children while the parents work full-time.
Because families are small cousins become "sisters" and "brothers" and family friends become "aunts" and "uncles".
There are also quite racist (like here not long ago), so having the kid raised in the East and marrying a Chinese would be much better than a laowai.

In addition the number of superstitions and customs related to menstruation, pregnancy, childbirth and post partum care over there is staggering, and they're accepted unquestioningly. Examples would be too numerous to list, but most are here: http://www.hawcc.hawaii.edu/nursing/RNChinese02.html

Source: I lived and worked there. I date a Chinese.

Das Kitty

It was her decision. There's a Chinese girl working here who had a baby last year and her parents back home were pushing for her to send the baby over to them, but she decided against it and she and her husband kept the child in Ireland.

They've been living here for eight years now though, so they're as Irish as I am at this stage.

My mum let her house to some Polish immigrants, and what they were doing was working two jobs each and sending the money back home. They had a four year plan where they'd return home to a newly built house in a nice area that they and their 3 kids (who were living with grandparents in Poland) could live in. Funnily enough, they loved Ireland so much they changed the plan, bought a house here in Ireland and brought the children and grandparents over.

It's tough. I couldn't have a child that I never saw. It would tear my heart out, but not everyone is the same and I'd never judge someone for making a decision like that. My kid is in creche, and I know a lot of people don't think creche's are great. But I adore our creche and how it's helped our lad in his development so far.

emmabrighton

fleet wrote: »

It's cultural.
Money is king and never seen as vulgar (makes a great gift etc). So saving it is of great import.
People retire at 55, so grandparents are expected to look after the children while the parents work full-time.
Because families are small cousins become "sisters" and "brothers" and family friends become "aunts" and "uncles".
There are also quite racist (like here not long ago), so having the kid raised in the East and marrying a Chinese would be much better than a laowai.

In addition the number of superstitions and customs related to menstruation, pregnancy, childbirth and post partum care over there is staggering, and they're accepted unquestioningly. Examples would be too numerous to list, but most are here: http://www.hawcc.hawaii.edu/nursing/RNChinese02.html

The first milk, "colostrum" is considered stale or dirty, therefore it is discarded. :eek:

Oh my god!!!! They need to drop this one!!!!

Oral Slang

I'm just so sad for that 6 month old, totally confused as to where its mother gone.

fleet

Remember that we here in Ireland used forcibly remove babies from unmarried mothers and place them in orphanages.

That wasn't very long ago at all...

vitani

It also used to be common practice among the upper classes to send their child away to be 'fostered' by another family.

emmabrighton

fleet wrote: »

Remember that we here in Ireland used forcibly remove babies from unmarried mothers and place them in orphanages.

God, I know, there is a thread somewhere on boards about just that... some of them giving up their children as recently as 1992. I am unmarried - living with my sons father 11 years, mind you - so this particular issue irks me.

munchkin_utd

the mother mentioned in the OPs story isnt doing too bad seeing as she does get back once a month.

There was some article recently about domestic servants in Singaprore or the likes (from Bangladesh or somewhere really far from there) who earn literally only 100euro a month (board and food covered) so they never see their kids. As in, never never as itd be a years wages to get back - and the wages are all sent back to look after the kids

Not home in 10 or 15 years to see husband or kids and no sign of getting back soon. Bonkers stuff.

miss no stars

It's normal. We lived in Malaysia in the early 90s and the Ama my brother and I had was live in and had kids of her own in the Philippines who she rarely got to see. Guy in work is Chinese and he and his wife had a baby this year who's back in China being raised by the grandmother.

Normal as it is for them... It still hurts. Of course it does, they miss their kids dreadfully, perhaps especially when they're small. I don't think it would be unreasonable to talk to her about the baby and how she's getting on with missing baby etc.

silly

fleet wrote: »

In addition the number of superstitions and customs related to menstruation, pregnancy, childbirth and post partum care over there is staggering, and they're accepted unquestioningly. Examples would be too numerous to list, but most are here: http://www.hawcc.hawaii.edu/nursing/RNChinese02.html

Source: I lived and worked there. I date a Chinese.

oh my.
giving birth on her own, in silence??? thats a bit mad.
not showering for a month after the birth? eugh!

rambutman

its cultural in Asia (or at least the parts i know of). As someone above said money comes first. Extended families quite often end up raising the kids. It sucks IMHO..........and I'm well used to the mentality having 2 kids with an Indonesian woman. I went out with a chinese girl once and from the age of 6/7 it was quite normal for her to be left at home for the weekend alone by her parents........her attitute "sure what was going to happen me, if i got hungry i went to the fridge" - totally 4ucked up.

pwurple

The parents are working heir asses off to be able to afford an education for their children. That's why money comes first, because the future of their children comes first. And having a job in a relatively well paid country like ireland is seen as winninng the lotto compared to having to work in urban china for a pittance to send back to rural china. I have the height of respect for their efforts and sacrifices.

It's not so far removed from here either. I know a few fathers who have lost their jobs here in the last few years and are working abroad to send home money to their children. They see them every 6 months or so.

Love2u

What's the point having children if your not prepared to raise them. Quiet selfish regardless of their beliefs or culture.

pwurple

Love2u wrote: »

What's the point having children if your not prepared to raise them. Quiet selfish regardless of their beliefs or culture.

What a horribly unfeeling statement. It's the complete opposite of selfish. They are choosing to work and increase their child's chance of a better life at huge loss to themselves.


Selfish would be sucking us dry of social welfare. instead she is being a productive employee, contributing to our county and our ecomony, both by being producing something of value and by paying taxes. Plus meanwhile probably living on next to nothing because they send most home to support a family, and save for an education for their children.

I'm going to make damn sure my children travel if we can afford it, to see how not everything is as cushy as we have it here, with our state education, healthcare, bouncy safety net of social wefare if things go wrong and all round sense of entitlement. They should at least be able to imagine how other people live.

Love2u

pwurple wrote: »

What a horribly unfeeling statement. It's the complete opposite of selfish. They are choosing to work and increase their child's chance of a better life at huge loss to themselves.


Selfish would be sucking us dry of social welfare. instead she is being a productive employee, contributing to our county and our ecomony, both by being producing something of value and by paying taxes. Plus meanwhile probably living on next to nothing because they send most home to support a family, and save for an education for their children.

I'm going to make damn sure my children travel if we can afford it, to see how not everything is as cushy as we have it here, with our state education, healthcare, bouncy safety net of social wefare if things go wrong and all round sense of entitlement. They should at least be able to imagine how other people live.

"Increase their child's chance of a better life"!! The child would have a better life with their parent was tucking them into bed every night and physically being with them! How confused and separated would the child be feeling?

Orion

Love2u wrote: »

What's the point having children if your not prepared to raise them. Quiet selfish regardless of their beliefs or culture.

This is not the first time you're being warned for this type of comment. Next time you decide to flame like this you will no longer be welcome in Parenting.

Pawwed Rig

nikpmup wrote: »

A girl I work with has just returned to the Philippines after 12 years. Her 3 children are there with her husband and grandparents. She travelled home once a year to see them. Doesn't make sense to me at all, but apparently quite common.

Generally it is economic need rather than choice. Sad reality for many countries.

MurdyWurdy

It is very common in China, the grandparents raise the kids so when you become a grandmother you're desperate to have a go of a baby because you didn't care for your own. I know a Chinese couple in New Zealand who did it. They said it's a better way to do it because her parents were retired and it allowed the couple to both work and send money back.

I think it's weird but it's just one of those cultural things.

Chattastrophe!

I know a woman who did this. Her parents moved over from The Philippines for a couple of years after the baby was born, then moved back when he was about two and brought him with them.

The mother said to us at the time that her parents were bringing him up anyways, while she wanted to focus on her career for a few years. She said she'd miss him loads, but that really she viewed him as a little brother rather than as a son.

I suppose I find it a little strange, and certainly couldn't do it myself ... but as long as the child is being loved and cared for, isn't that the main thing.

Rosy Posy

I had a Chinese friend who had her first baby around the same time as I had mine. Herself and the husband were obsessed with having all new stuff and worked themselves to the bone to provide it. I was getting loads of stuff second hand and hand me downs from friends and offered to go through the stuff with her but she didn't want any of it. When the baby was one they went for a holiday back to China and came back alone- I was totally shocked but she explained that that was how things were done there. She actually seemed way happier when she came back as she was able to work and study and send loads of money home for the baby and know it would go much further there.
It made no sense to me but it worked for them.

iguana

pwurple wrote: »

The parents are working heir asses off to be able to afford an education for their children. That's why money comes first, because the future of their children comes first.

But the in the family the OP is talking about, the child is entitled to a perfectly good free education so that doesn't really apply in this particular scenario. I completely understand it if living away from your child means the difference between them being stuck in an extreme poverty trap or having a chance at a better life. But neither the OP's friend or her child are stuck in extreme poverty, so why still make such a huge sacrifice.

pwurple

iguana wrote: »

But the in the family the OP is talking about, the child is entitled to a perfectly good free education so that doesn't really apply in this particular scenario. I completely understand it if living away from your child means the difference between them being stuck in an extreme poverty trap or having a chance at a better life. But neither the OP's friend or her child are stuck in extreme poverty, so why still make such a huge sacrifice.

They won't get free education until they are four, and you still need after school care then. Childcare will easily consume someones salary completely, leaving zero. Extended family is much closer there too, she may well also be supporting her own parents, and her husbands parents with this arrangement.

nikpmup

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Generally it is economic need rather than choice. Sad reality for many countries.

Generally, yes, I'd agree with you. However, this particular lady owned several properties in Manila, her husband is an airline pilot and her family have servants - quite wealthy by Philippine standards. They also own property here. There was no real need for her to work here as they had plenty of money, from what I could see it was sheer greed. There are other non national staff in my job from the Philippines and India mainly, who have had to do similar, but they really did need to work here to send money home and they dreaded every day. The lady I mentioned just worshipped money.

Pawwed Rig

In Philippines family is everything. Their culture is to look after the family above all else at all cost*. For someone to leave their child like that is not a cultural thing. This lady would seem to be an exception to the rule. The majority of Filipinos would much rather be living at home than here but are 'economic refugees' in that to get work at home at any kind of decent wage is next to impossible.


*which is one of the reasons for the chronic corruption and cronyism in the country but that is another conversation.

Xidu

I think there's a bit of misunderstanding here. Yes, it's chinese culture that grandpartents are expected to look after grandchildren if they are available. But it is NOT common that the kids will be seperated with their parents.

Most of the Chinese families, that the grandparents will move in with their kids and look after grandchildern when the partents are working during daytime, but they all live together and the parents will spend plenty time with kids after work and on weekends. It's mainly because people dont trust daycare center and childminder as there are so many abuse cases explored in vedios. some people will also hire people to do housework, but they do not want strangers to look after their own kids.

There are some families who cant afford daycare/childminder, so the grandparents will have to offer help and most of them are very happy to do so. Now if you are unlucky that your parents are not available, then you will have to send kids to daycare.

Also, there are a big percentage of mothers quit job and look after kids by themselves, based on the father makes enough money.

If the kids are seperated from the parents, appearently, its' the case that the grandparents are too far away from them. In China, if you do not go to a good college, it's almost impossible to get a proper job. For example, If you are a plumber, in Ireland you still get paid very well as long as you get enough work. But, in China, no matter how hard you work, even you work 24/7, you will only get less than 200 euro a month. But if you get an engineer/teaching/banking job, you could get 1500 euro a month. Manual labour is not proper valued there.

And 4 years university plus accomendation/living cost is so expensive for most of the Chinese. There are plenty of young kids have to give up college because of poverty. And it's not easy for them to get loan at all.

There are families have to sell their own only house to support kid's college fee. Kids are going to school with all the burdens and guilty to their parents that they swear they will make it up to their parents in furture.

Anyway, it's not easy for most of the Chinese parents. Sometimes, they think it's a better decision for their kids. If they make enough money now, their kids wont suffer what they suffered now. They accept it silently.

No money means no rights, there are cases happened that the rich family's kid was speeding in his fancy car and hit someone to death, but he wasnot put in jail because he had enough money to pay undertable and settle the case outside of law.

Xidu

also, in China, it's common that every class has over 50 kids. And if you do not own a house around the school area, you are not allowed to go to this certain school, families in this area are the priority. If you rent a house around the area, you have to put your kids in this school, then you will have to pay certain extra money to get in the school. Schools are trying every way to make money from parents. Not that many schools are really for educating kids.

And a teacher normally have to teach 3 classes, so 150 kids per teacher. No way they can know every single child so well, understand every child's character...it's just too much for them. Parents will have to pay for teacher for extra hours if their kids fail exams...

so it's true almost everything is about money money. It's sick. I feel sad about it as I am chinese. Most of Chinese are still living in poverty. That's why everyone want to make money. I am 31, but when i was a child, i never heard about chocolate, lego, teddy bear. People are living better life now, but they cant get rid of the poverty shadow.

rambutman

Xidu wrote: »

No money means no rights, there are cases happened that the rich family's kid was speeding in his fancy car and hit someone to death, but he wasnot put in jail because he had enough money to pay undertable and settle the case outside of law.

Off-topic but....
this does not equate to money giving you rights - its equates to money allowing you to engage in corruption

Ciarabear

There is too much emphasis on money in this material world. There is no substitute for something so special as a parent's love

_Whimsical_

Xidu wrote: »

also, in China, it's common that every class has over 50 kids. And if you do not own a house around the school area, you are not allowed to go to this certain school, families in this area are the priority. If you rent a house around the area, you have to put your kids in this school, then you will have to pay certain extra money to get in the school. Schools are trying every way to make money from parents. Not that many schools are really for educating kids.

And a teacher normally have to teach 3 classes, so 150 kids per teacher. No way they can know every single child so well, understand every child's character...it's just too much for them. Parents will have to pay for teacher for extra hours if their kids fail exams...

so it's true almost everything is about money money. It's sick. I feel sad about it as I am chinese. Most of Chinese are still living in poverty. That's why everyone want to make money. I am 31, but when i was a child, i never heard about chocolate, lego, teddy bear. People are living better life now, but they cant get rid of the poverty shadow.

Seeing as you probaby know more than any of us about it would you consider that a child would have a better life being brought up in Ireland or being raised in China where money would be sent?
Would a child living on the kind of money they average proffessional parent would be able to send from Ireland provide an exceptional style of life to a child?

From what you say life sounds easier in Ireland for a child.

pwurple

Ciarabear wrote: »

There is too much emphasis on money in this material world. There is no substitute for something so special as a parent's love

^

First . World.

Ciarabear

pwurple wrote: »

^
First . World.

Love is universal. It's very noble of any parent to invest financially in their child's future but in the big scheme of things, it's even more important to be present. Tomorrow isn't guaranteed.

dharma200

The amount of cultural ignorance on here is quite astounding... I understand it is a leap to some people to understand the norms in culture other than their own.. But to be aghast that extended family are raising a child, so that the mother can work and provide for child's future and extended family.. And the lack of understanding in some cultures whereby if you have no money you have no rights.. I suspect most commenting haven't been close to china... I think people should really focus more on providing for their own families and extended families ( like that is the norm in recent times in Ireland lol) and less making cultural judgements on another mother who is obviously doing what is best for her child and her family, and probably supporting a whole host of people who, she loves and doing her best. Privelidge really is a great place to be casting judgement... I suspect the lady in question loves and cares for her family and extended family more than many.. And provides for them at great sacrifice. That should be commended.

Ciarabear

dharma200 wrote: »

The amount of cultural ignorance on here is quite astounding

The ignorance assumption when people express an alternative opinion is a lazy one. Just because someone doesn't agree with your perspective, doesn't mean they aren't informed

pwurple

Ciarabear wrote: »

Love is universal. It's very noble of any parent to invest financially in their child's future but in the big scheme of things, it's even more important to be present. Tomorrow isn't guaranteed.

Adopted parents. Grandparents. Single parent. Doesn't matter. A child just needs someone, anyone.

Above all else are the ACTUAL necessities. Food, air, water, housing, a future.

The hallmark cuddly stuff can be afforded when other basics are taken care of.

dharma200

Ciarabear wrote: »

The ignorance assumption when people express an alternative opinion is a lazy one. Just because someone doesn't agree with your perspective, doesn't mean they aren't informed

I a, not talking about agreeing and perspective, I am talking about cultural norms, the difference in cultural norms for one culture to another, accepting these as such and not allowing ones own norms to become a universal standard, when no such standard exists.

Ciarabear

dharma200 wrote: »

I a, not talking about agreeing and perspective, I am talking about cultural norms, the difference in cultural norms for one culture to another, accepting these as such and not allowing ones own norms to become a universal standard, when no such standard exists.

Female circumcision is culturally normal in parts of Africa. Just because cultural norms exist does not make them right or that everyone must agree with them

dharma200

Eh, I'm not saying that.. Female genital mutation has nothing to do with a mother allowing her family to raise her child while she is the breadwinner for said family.. I hate that, when someone brings to a thread total extreme situations that have no relevance to the actual thread. Female genial mutation has nothing to do with I e parent questioning another parents choice of how they support their extended and immediate family. Nothing to do with female general mutation. Gawd.

Ciarabear

dharma200 wrote: »

Eh, I'm not saying that.. Female genital mutation has nothing to do with a mother allowing her family to raise her child while she is the breadwinner for said family.. I hate that, when someone brings to a thread total extreme situations that have no relevance to the actual thread. Female genial mutation has nothing to do with I e parent questioning another parents choice of how they support their extended and immediate family. Nothing to do with female general mutation. Gawd.

You seem to think that because cultural norms exist, we must all agree with them. My point is an example to illustrate that just because people do something by way of tradition somewhere in the world, it does not automatically make that tradition right and it is other peoples right to hold that view without being deemed ignorant.

dharma200

I am not suggesting we all agree. I am saying to judge another human being using your own cultural norms, without taking into account their cultural norms, is fairly culturally ignorant. End of. Quite happy for people to disagree, quite happy to share my opinion

hfallada

A lot of Irish people use au pairs and barely interact with their children. A least the babies grandparents in China are going to hopefully adore and love the child. Unlike many irish people I know that do not in any form interact with their children.

Orion

Orion wrote: »

This is not the first time you're being warned for this type of comment. Next time you decide to flame like this you will no longer be welcome in Parenting.

This is a very overly sensitive modding !!!

Xidu

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

Seeing as you probaby know more than any of us about it would you consider that a child would have a better life being brought up in Ireland or being raised in China where money would be sent?
Would a child living on the kind of money they average proffessional parent would be able to send from Ireland provide an exceptional style of life to a child?

From what you say life sounds easier in Ireland for a child.

It's much better life in Ireland considering the big space for kids to run around, the clean air... But I partly guess the mom thinks baby is too small to know that much yet, so it's ok to send the baby back to china, but the baby will be brought back to Ireland for education.

January

Deleted User wrote: »

This is a very overly sensitive modding !!!

If you've a problem with moderation, I suggest you PM the mod in question instead of arguing on thread.

January

January wrote: »

If you've a problem with moderation, I suggest you PM the mod in question instead of arguing on thread.

I've no problem with moderation, just over moderation.

January

That's your final warning. Please stay on topic.

LMAO!!!

I'll be good, I promise.