Class sizes

chemanalysis

Hi all, I am the ASTI rep (newly appointed) in our school. Today we were given class lists and the numbers in many classes exceed ASTI directives. I spoke to the principal but was told with cut backs there was nothing he could do. I rang the union but just got answerphone. I would like to know if this is a common story in all schools and if anyone could offer me advise on what to do.

byhookorbycrook

It certainly common at primary level. A friend has 37 this year -5th and 6th, they all have to stand up and shuffle left or right, if one needs to go to the loo, apparently.

RealJohn

This is the first year in a while I haven't had at least one science class with more than 24 students.

ytareh

24 in practical room should be a line in the sand none pass.If you have a group of 26 there'd be little chance of having 25 in too often .If there was an accident YOU would be the one taking the heat !

Heydeldel

I saw first year class lists in a the school I did Teaching Practice. Some were 32.

chemanalysis

There is a minimum of 26 in science classes and 32 is common in other subjects.

I'm just not sure what to do about changing it. I have tried to talk to the principal but got no where, he said there was nothing he could do !!!:(

solerina

The science max is 24 as far as I know and we have never had more than 24...we refuse to take them and the principal knows this so doesnt push his luck...its 20 in Home Ec and again our teachers refuse to take any more !!

seavill

The 24 rule is a union directive so should be followed and should have union rep not class teacher fighting the principal not the class teacher and all practical class teachers should sign a letter together about the directive and stick together.

Not an insurance issue according to the JMB having more than 24

chemanalysis

The problem seaville is that I am the union rep and one of the teachers effected. The principal is trying to brush me off, he dosen't see breaking the directive as being important.
I have tried speaking to him but made no progress. He has been doing it for years and I'm not sure what to do next. The unions won't answer my phone calls. He says its not department rules and so he dosen't have to follow :rolleyes:

seavill

chemanalysis wrote: »

The problem seaville is that I am the union rep and one of the teachers effected. The principal is trying to brush me off, he dosen't see breaking the directive as being important.
I have tried speaking to him but made no progress. He has been doing it for years and I'm not sure what to do next. The unions won't answer my phone calls. He says its not department rules and so he dosen't have to follow :rolleyes:

The first thing I would do is bombard Pat King with e-mails daily, along with your area rep and anyone else you can find contact details for. Send them all one e-mail every day stating dates you rang and got no response and keep sending an email every day with the previous days email date added to the list. I can guarantee someone will answer you quickly if they are getting daily emails.

Secondly I'm not sure did you try it or not but (presuming you have all practical teachers on board) in writing all practical teachers request a meeting with the principal and board of management. State that you have a union directive that you must follow as union members and it needs to be discussed. It is much harder to ignore 7 or 8 teachers versus only 1 teacher on their own, union rep or not.

The only way around this is union interference I would imagine but i would see it as important that the principal sees that it is all practical teachers together not just you

chemanalysis

Thanks, I will do as you suggest and see if others are willing to put their feelings on paper.
I will also keep onto the union, I never thought being union rep would be so difficult, especially when the union you are representing won't even answer your calls

joebloggs32

There is a reason for the directive.
You are not insured to have more than 24 in a practical room and 30 in an academic class.
If there was an accident say in woodwork, then it is the teacher who it falls back on, and in theory they could be struck off and sued

seavill

joebloggs32 wrote: »

There is a reason for the directive.
You are not insured to have more than 24 in a practical room and 30 in an academic class.
If there was an accident say in woodwork, then it is the teacher who it falls back on, and in theory they could be struck off and sued

As I said above according to the JMB this is not actually the case, insurance has nothing to do with it its purely a directive due to obvious difficulities in practical subjects having extra students

joebloggs32

seavill wrote: »

As I said above according to the JMB this is not actually the case, insurance has nothing to do with it its purely a directive due to obvious difficulities in practical subjects having extra students

as a union branch officer, I have been advised by our area rep that it is. According to him, it is the same as a nurse looking after too many patients, one mistake and it is the nurse who carries the can, never management

seavill

Conflicting advice so - we still refused but that obviously didn't go down well

joebloggs32

seavill wrote: »

Conflicting advice so - we still refused but that obviously didn't go down well

I wouldn't take everything as gospel from the JMB, but then again the same could be said of the unions too.

Kalimera

joebloggs32 wrote: »

I wouldn't take everything as gospel from the JMB, but then again the same could be said of the unions too.

This is a union directive and not related to insurance. Note that in both TUi & ASTI directives there is no mention of insurance as a reason for the directive.

rainbowtrout

joebloggs32 wrote: »

as a union branch officer, I have been advised by our area rep that it is. According to him, it is the same as a nurse looking after too many patients, one mistake and it is the nurse who carries the can, never management

But the class size : 24 in practical classes, 20 in home economics is a union directive not a department directive. So if a child had an accident in a classroom, could a teacher be held accountable and sued because the class was too big? Well if there is no directive issued by the employer (Dept/VEC) on the maximum class size and class sizes are determined by the principal/deputy principal when timetabling, could a teacher be held accountable for an oversized class when they have no say in the number of students they take in and there is no upper limit, only a union directive?

That's not saying I agree with practical classes of 24+. The school I work in was built 12 years ago and practical rooms (science, woodwork etc) were built for 24. 12 desks that sit 2 students each. Most of the classrooms were built to accommodate similar size numbers for non practical subjects. Some teachers find their rooms fairly crowded now as class sizes approach 30 for some non practical subjects in rooms that were realistically designed for 24.

Chris68

Would the teacher still be held liable for breaking a union directive if they weren't a union member???

teacherhead

Chris68 wrote: »

Would the teacher still be held liable for breaking a union directive if they weren't a union member???

Even a union member is only answerable to the union for breaking a directive. The employer is liable for accidents unless the teacher can be shown to have acted in a negligent way.

I'm not a fan of putting 25 in classes but sometimes it happens. It's not the teachers call at the end of the day, they can plead and make a case to the principal but what else can they do? If you refuse to take the class youre in breach of contract.

I would take the student under protest and burn the ears off the principal at every opportunity, ask for it to be on the agenda of staff meetings, get it in the minutes that you have misgivings. Cover your own arsenal basically.

killbillvol2

joebloggs32 wrote:

You are not insured to have more than 24 in a practical room and 30 in an academic class.
If there was an accident say in woodwork, then it is the teacher who it falls back on, and in theory they could be struck off and sued

joebloggs32 wrote: »

as a union branch officer, I have been advised by our area rep that it is. According to him, it is the same as a nurse looking after too many patients, one mistake and it is the nurse who carries the can, never management

That's an astonishing statement. I don't know which is more worrying; that your area rep gave you such a cock and bull story or that you're repeating it here.

joebloggs32

killbillvol2 wrote: »

That's an astonishing statement. I don't know which is more worrying; that your area rep gave you such a cock and bull story or that you're repeating it here.

as I said that's what my rep told me..
However if you play it out he may be correct.

Suppose you teach woodwork, and you allow 28 students in the classroom. Now suppose one of them chops his fingers off and his parents take a case. Put yourself in front of a barrister who asks you why would you allow more than 24 in your class. Remember that in 2013 health and safety trumps everything nowadays. You say management is to blame. But the barrister then questions why you as a competent professional would be complicit in the breaking of the union directive on class size, a directive in place to protect the health and safety of all in the room. That by going along with management you are partially responsible.
Now to further their high court action, the barrister would also make a complaint to the teaching council, knowing that they would have nothing to lose and everything to gain if they upheld it. This could if theory lead to sanctions or being struck off.

Maybe I'm too cynical, but I have seen barristers in operation, and those sneaky ba5tards would stop at nothing to win a case.

chemanalysis

teacherhead wrote: »

Even a union member is only answerable to the union for breaking a directive. The employer is liable for accidents unless the teacher can be shown to have acted in a negligent way.

I'm not a fan of putting 25 in classes but sometimes it happens. It's not the teachers call at the end of the day, they can plead and make a case to the principal but what else can they do? If you refuse to take the class youre in breach of contract.

I would take the student under protest and burn the ears off the principal at every opportunity, ask for it to be on the agenda of staff meetings, get it in the minutes that you have misgivings. Cover your own arsenal basically.

Thanks that's good advise, I don't want to fall out with him but I do feel things are getting out of hand. There is not a single junior cert science class under 26 and some have 27, this includes children from our autistic unit.

This week was the first time in my teaching career that I did a demo instead of allowing the students to do a practical. I just didn't feel safe with the number of students and the size of my room.(There were 27 students with 3 being linked to the autistic unit, I had no SNA not that one would fit) I went home that night feeling very sad:rolleyes::( and totally demoralized.

spurious

I would make sure to have your misgivings recorded.

Write a letter to the Principal, cc-ing it to your union rep and Health and Safety Officer (and letting the Principal know this) expressing your Health and Safety* concerns with such numbers in your lab.

If anything happens, you will have alerted management to the potential problem.

*the magic words

killbillvol2

joebloggs32 wrote: »

as I said that's what my rep told me..
However if you play it out he may be correct.

Suppose you teach woodwork, and you allow 28 students in the classroom. Now suppose one of them chops his fingers off and his parents take a case. Put yourself in front of a barrister who asks you why would you allow more than 24 in your class. Remember that in 2013 health and safety trumps everything nowadays. You say management is to blame. But the barrister then questions why you as a competent professional would be complicit in the breaking of the union directive on class size, a directive in place to protect the health and safety of all in the room. That by going along with management you are partially responsible.
Now to further their high court action, the barrister would also make a complaint to the teaching council, knowing that they would have nothing to lose and everything to gain if they upheld it. This could if theory lead to sanctions or being struck off.

Maybe I'm too cynical, but I have seen barristers in operation, and those sneaky ba5tards would stop at nothing to win a case.

Have you tried reading your own union's website?

It should be noted that the Department of Education and Science has no recommended class sizes and there are no legal liabilities on a teacher in relation to this matter. Such liabilities are a matter for the employer who has to ensure that pupils are given an adequate duty of care.


http://www.asti.ie/about-asti/policy/class-sizes/

You hold some position in the ASTI? Really?

You offer "advice" here?

You're making things up.

I'm reporting your posts and I think you should be banned from this forum.

joebloggs32

killbillvol2 wrote: »

Have you tried reading your own union's website?

It should be noted that the Department of Education and Science has no recommended class sizes and there are no legal liabilities on a teacher in relation to this matter. Such liabilities are a matter for the employer who has to ensure that pupils are given an adequate duty of care.


http://www.asti.ie/about-asti/policy/class-sizes/

You hold some position in the ASTI? Really?

You offer "advice" here?

You're making things up.

I'm reporting your posts and I think you should be banned from this forum.

my last post was a hypothetical scenario, which you failed to pick up on. Class sizes are a health and safety issue, so one needs to be very careful in this area. Have a look at the HSA website. Staff members shouldn't knowingly do anything that would compromise their own or any else health and safety.
My earler post clarified that it was information given to.me by a rep, so don't shoot the messenger.

happywithlife

I think the op needs to put her and the other teachers' concerns in writing as has been suggested.
Have dept heads draft the letter under that title so no one person feels they are personally in conflict with management.
Most importantly have staff rep bring it to the BOM meeting - most schools have one In sept.
make sure to raise the issue at the end of the year again to ensure a repeat doesn't happen next year.
I heard antedotely of someone who had siilar issues requesting a subject inspection so that their concerns were borne out in the subject report. Could be a CnB story but if the teachers are working in really dire positions would they consider this? If it is possible to do so.

implausible

chemanalysis wrote: »

Thanks, I will do as you suggest and see if others are willing to put their feelings on paper.
I will also keep onto the union, I never thought being union rep would be so difficult, especially when the union you are representing won't even answer your calls

I'm TUI so maybe it's different, but are you not supposed to go to your local officers first, before contacting Head Office? I presume there is an established grievance procedure to follow.

Pwpane

This document may help: http://chemistry.slss.ie/resources/downloads/ph_sd_safetylegislation.pdf

It is only a summary interpretation of the law. The Act can be read for clarification.

But can I emphasise some of what is said in the document?

The Board of Management must employ competent people to carry out various tasks in a school. A science teacher is employed because s/he is considered capable of teaching science and of carrying out practical work in a safe manner.

The principal, who is the representative of the board of management on a day-to-day basis, may not have a background in science and is dependent on the science teacher to inform him/her of any defects in the laboratory. The science teacher has control of the laboratory when he/she is in it and therefore shares in the responsibility for his/her own safety and that of the pupils.

It is the duty of the science teacher to ensure that pupils are working in the safest possible conditions........
Negligence – If you can reasonably foresee the consequences for what you are about to, or not about to do, then you will be held responsible........The measure of care expected of a science teacher is that of a careful parent for his/her children having regard to all the circumstances.

Would you have a large number of children cooking different things in your kitchen at a party if you couldn't keep clear control?

To me, all the above mean that the teacher must not carry out experiments in an unsafe manner. If you consider that conditions in the laboratory are unsafe then you must not expose the students to that risk. Whether this is because of a smell of gas or because there are too many children in too small a space for safely carrying out an experiment, it doesn't matter. It is your judgement call. How knowledgeable/skilled are the students? How physically large are they? How responsible, quiet and well behaved are they?Can you see what everyone is doing and can they hear you call out instructions?

Other people, who have had time to properly consider the matter, think that 24 is the most that one person can reasonably keep a good eye on. This rule is not to make an easier life for teachers. It is to keep children safe. Considering all the other disadvantages we have in a lab - e.g. no prep time and no assistant - it is reasonable not to increase numbers as well.

Options? Don't take them to the lab at all, use YouTube videos. Demonstrate. Do some experiments but not others. Split the group etc. Yes, it's not teaching science but you and they are still in one piece. Document it, keep it for inspections, make sure the Principal, the parents and the BOM know what you're doing and why.

Or just stand in the office and keep repeating "But I don't feel that the students are safe with that many present." "I understand the situation but I don't feel that they are safe when overcrowded."

This is not something that you fret about but accept anyway because down-trodden teachers have to do what their bully Principals tell them in these dreadful times. This is something you do because it is right.

Btw, if you tell the Principal or BOM that you consider your class size to be unsafe in the lab and you continue to take them there, you don't have a leg to stand on if something happens.

chemanalysis

implausible wrote: »

I'm TUI so maybe it's different, but are you not supposed to go to your local officers first, before contacting Head Office? I presume there is an established grievance procedure to follow.

Sorry implausible, you are correct and when I said that I had tried to contact the union I meant my local rep. I have since had contact with her and the situation is that if I refuse to accept these students into my class room I am in breach of contract. !!!

Initially I need to speak with principal and see if anything can be sorted....have done that and no joy.

Next I approach the board of management but as she said they will back principal.

Then I activate the grievance procedure which involves the matter going to arbitration.

I just wish I had not been placed in this position my job is hard enough without all this extra hassle. I am not the type of person who enjoys confrontation.

spurious

Without giving too many identifying details, we had a case where a child was injured while 'trick acting' in a specialist room. Of course some solicitor encouraged the parents to sue, which they did.

During the case, the child's side went so far as to look for in writing in the schemes, where the teacher specifically taught that that particular form of misbehaviour was not allowed. The school then needed to supply the attendance register to prove the child was in the class that day.

Every possible route to find that the school or teacher had not followed regulations/procedures was followed. Luckily, the teacher had kept an extra sheet following the safety class and there in the middle of it, attesting that they understood and would follow the safety rules of the room, was the child's signature.

The child's parents lost the case, but there was no suggestion that it was just the school under the microscope, the teacher was too. Cover yourself and then cover yourself again.