Nissan Leaf EV - much scope for haggling on price?

NIMAN

I have seen a few for sale and am very slightly tempted to think about one when I come to change my car next year, but I was wondering if there would be much room for haggling on the price?

I would reckon they would be hard things to sell, and sellers could end up being stuck with one. I have seen several for sale that have been with the dealer for a LONG time.

September1

Irish dealers seem to be hard to haggle and I had so little success that I purchased one in UK after all. That was years ago, so maybe you should give it a try? I think they are so hard to sell, that many dealers would not even keep a demo car.

Yawlboy

I tried to buy one last year and the dealer really did not want to sell it to me. He tried everything to put me off. Kept going on about how it was a specialist car and how I'd probably find it too restrictive for daily use.

In the end I didn't buy one because my 100km daily commute was too close to the real range limit of the car (I did a test drive of my commute and barely made it back to the dealers - that was with no lights/radio/heater or aircon turned on).

However I am seriously tempted to look at one of the new models with the new heater and extra range. I'll let you know how it goes if I do.

Irish dealers are impossible to haggle with and are selling Leaf's for 5,000 + more than the U.K.

Irish dealers would rather it rot on the forecourt than offer it for it's real worth.

OP as long as you know the winter range can be as low as 60 miles, and this is within your limits then go for it. If you can charge at your destination then you can cover 120 miles a day,

I wouldn't be bringing it close to it's limit every day as after 70 odd thousand miles or so you will have lost some range and how much is unknown yet but you could fall short in 5 years time or so.

One of the best electric cars coming next years will be the chevy spark ev, it will have a heated and cooled battery so you will have a lot more range in winter than the Leaf, and you can fast charge it many times a day if you want as the battery is cooled.

The Spark will have a longer life battery too. It's not the prettiest car, but it's supposed to be a lot more fun with all the torque, 400 lbs.

2nd hand Leaf's in the U.K are good value and could pay back in as little as 3 years on longer commutes which no other car can do at the same price.

Yawlboy

Yawlboy wrote: »

In the end I didn't buy one because my 100km daily commute was too close to the real range limit of the car (I did a test drive of my commute and barely made it back to the dealers - that was with no lights/radio/heater or aircon turned on).

Yes 60 miles is close in winter, But you should get 70 odd miles at 100 kph with no heat, however if it's very cold then 60 miles is probably right.

The Gen I Leaf could not have air blowing without heat or a/c but this has changed with the Gen II, still winter range despite new heater will be effected as the battery is not heated.

Yawlboy wrote: »

However I am seriously tempted to look at one of the new models with the new heater and extra range. I'll let you know how it goes if I do.

My advice if buying new would be to buy the Chevy Spark EV, it's superior to the Leaf, the Leaf is bigger and nicer but is a first gen ev.

The spark should have nearly the same range in winter as summer because the battery is heated.

The battery is more advanced too and longer lasting.

I'm not sure if it uses a heat pump.

The Spark EV only has a 3 kw charger like the gen I Leaf, the leaf Gen II has a (option) of a 6 kw charger for charging at home.

The Spark EV won't be effected at all by fast charging multiple times daily.

The Spark also has good range at 100 kph around 84 miles as tested by the EPA and according to owners it's more efficient than the Leaf at speed.

Fast charging is the key, you might find you need 5-10 mins to make it home, or fast charge as much as you can to make charging at home cheaper. Because public charging is free for now.

Sesshoumaru

The spark looks like a nice small car, but I can't see it fitting 3 child seats in the back like I can with my Leaf. It seems a bit small to be comparing it to the Leaf? I could be wrong though, I'm just going by pictures & videos I've googled.

unkel

Yawlboy wrote: »

In the end I didn't buy one because my 100km daily commute was too close to the real range limit

100km commute without being able to charge the car at work?

Good luck with that

R.O.R

Deleted User wrote: »

Irish dealers would rather it rot on the forecourt than offer it for it's real worth.

Irish dealers would rather it sits on the forecourt, not costing them anything, rather than taking a loss on selling a car.

I don't have the actual figures for Nissan, but I'd be willing to bet it costs the dealers more from Nissan Ireland than you think you should be able to buy it for. If that's the case, then it's not the dealer's fault, it's the importer/manufacturer's fault.

R.O.R

R.O.R wrote: »

Irish dealers would rather it sits on the forecourt, not costing them anything, rather than taking a loss on selling a car.

I don't have the actual figures for Nissan, but I'd be willing to bet it costs the dealers more from Nissan Ireland than you think you should be able to buy it for. If that's the case, then it's not the dealer's fault, it's the importer/manufacturer's fault.

Nissan makes a big loss on the Leaf but not as much now as the battery is cheaper. But there would be a big loss for the 1st gen.

Still if they can sell it in the U.K for much less than here, surely they can do the same here to sell it off ? Surely it's better to sell it than risk premature battery loss by leaving it charged to 100% all day long so as test drivers don't think it's got awfully low range.

There is no way I would buy a 2nd hand leaf here when I can get it sever thousand cheaper in the U.K and including flight and ferry.

unkel

unkel wrote: »

100km commute without being able to charge the car at work?

Good luck with that

100 km in the debts of winter would be pushing it to the max, in summer it wouldn't be a problem at all.

Anyone driving to the Luas stops could cover 120 miles a day in winter or 150 in summer.

The heated battery of the Spark or BMW I3 would make a huge difference, still the heater would consume energy but it would still have far more range than a leaf with a cold battery.

With the increasing amount of fast chargers being installed it might mean only 5-10 mins to make it home.

The Zoe would suffer the same problem with a cold battery. The Zoe doesn't have more range than the Leaf either despite Renault stuffing the usual underpowered motors/engines in their cars.

Sesshoumaru

Real world example of range:

2011 Nissan Leaf with 50,000 kilometers on the clock, 2 adults, 3 kids (with booster seats) and supplies for one week holiday in Wexford.

Route taken -> http://goo.gl/maps/2ibBy





The fuel gauge has 12 bars and we had 1 left when we arrived. Weather was warm and sunny, so excellent for battery storage. On the other hand the car couldn't possibly have fit more people and luggage. I hope any potential buyers find this real world example of range useful.

Sesshoumaru, At what speed roughly was that ? was it with 100% charge and how many more kms do you think you could have driven ? was the low battery warning on ?

Did you use the qc in Gorey ?

In winter though would you make that trip ?

Sesshoumaru

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

The spark looks like a nice small car, but I can't see it fitting 3 child seats in the back like I can with my Leaf. It seems a bit small to be comparing it to the Leaf? I could be wrong though, I'm just going by pictures & videos I've googled.

It is small, you'll see the petrol versions from time to time out and about.

But still very useful for a commute at 84 miles. Charge up on way for 160 odd miles.

Sesshoumaru

Deleted User wrote: »

Sesshoumaru, At what speed roughly was that ? was it with 100% charge and how many more kms do you think you could have driven ? was the low battery warning on ?

Did you use the qc in Gorey ?

In winter though would you make that trip ?

Speed was usually at 95kph with cruise control and was from 100% charge. I think going from memory another 10km should have been easy and maybe a total extra of 15km if I was pushing it a little. There was no low battery or turtle mode. The best I managed with all my family in the car was 157 kilometres coming from the fast charger in Cashel motorway service station to Celbridge. On that leg of the journey I was doing a constant 100kph, but did cheat a little with some wind deflection from a truck

I did use the FC in Gorey, one near Kilmore Quay and Wexford Car Centre had one I used as well. I didn't have to use one on the journey if that's what you mean though. I would also make the journey in winter, not sure if that would mean a little top up in a fast charger or not. I think it would be doable though.

Sesshoumaru

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Speed was usually at 95kph with cruise control and was from 100% charge. I think going from memory another 10km should have been easy and maybe a total extra of 15km if I was pushing it a little. There was no low battery or turtle mode. The best I managed with all my family in the car was 157 kilometres coming from the fast charger in Cashel motorway service station to Celbridge. On that leg of the journey I was doing a constant 100kph, but did cheat a little with some wind deflection from a truck

I did use the FC in Gorey, one near Kilmore Quay and Wexford Car Centre had one I used as well. I didn't have to use one on the journey if that's what you mean though. I would also make the journey in winter, not sure if that would mean a little top up in a fast charger or not. I think it would be doable though.

Cool, should be more than doable in winter too. With the qc points.

Pity there are 0 in Wicklow yet.

You and September1 should get the Gid meter to see hot your batteries are performing. It would be very interesting and useful information.

Sesshoumaru

Deleted User wrote: »

Cool, should be more than doable in winter too. With the qc points.

Pity there are 0 in Wicklow yet.

You and September1 should get the Gid meter to see hot your batteries are performing. It would be very interesting and useful information.

Bray is supposedly getting a fast charger with funding from the EU. Supposedly also it should be in place before the end of September. So I heard anyway!

Sesshoumaru

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Bray is supposedly getting a fast charger with funding from the EU. Supposedly also it should be in place before the end of September. So I heard anyway!

One in Bray is good, but not for me sadly, I'd need one in Wicklow Town, Rathnew or Ashford. I like to go on drives through Wicklow and I start from the South of Kildare near Carlow Town.

Zoe makes best use of the public charging, even though there are 0 fast ac chargers, zoe can charge in 1 hr or less, still I don't think I would own Zoe, 14 seconds 0-100 is far too slow for me.

I wonder what's going to happen when the E.U funding runs out ?

I bet anything Tesla will install loads of superchargers in Europe, I can't understand if they can do it why can't European car makers ?

unkel

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Real world example of range:

That's not a real world example of commuting range. I did pretty much the same trip last month in my 12 year old very heavy Saab 9-5 (engine from the 70s) with at least the same weight on board (indeed packed with also 5 people)

I averaged 40MPG and drove a lot faster than you

On a commute into Dublin (on my own in an empty car) I would expect no more than 20-25MPG

There's no way you'd get 100km on a commute into and out of Dublin from a Leaf...

...unless the Gardai clear all the roads

650Ginge

I love the electric car idea. The previous thread on the second hand one in the UK made me think hard about it. But I can get to near Paris from Navan in my Prius without the need to fuel up.

So getting to Wexford isn't really great. I understand you need to adapt I just don't need the extra hassle and even with my mileage it won't pay for itself against a good second hand car like an 06 Prius for example. They appear to have no resale value at all. So I will have to wait or my needs change.

The bi

unkel

unkel wrote: »

That's not a real world example of commuting range. I did pretty much the same trip last month in my 12 year old very heavy Saab 9-5 (engine from the 70s) with at least the same weight on board (indeed packed with also 5 people)

I averaged 40MPG and drove a lot faster than you

On a commute into Dublin (on my own in an empty car) I would expect no more than 20-25MPG

So what, what's your point ?

unkel wrote: »

There's no way you'd get 100km on a commute into and out of Dublin from a Leaf...

...unless the Gardai clear all the roads

And how would you know that how ?

So Sesshoumaru lied for what reason exactly ?

His reports match others from the U.S.

650Ginge

650Ginge wrote: »

I love the electric car idea. The previous thread on the second hand one in the UK made me think hard about it. But I can get to near Paris from Navan in my Prius without the need to fuel up.

So getting to Wexford isn't really great. I understand you need to adapt I just don't need the extra hassle and even with my mileage it won't pay for itself against a good second hand car like an 06 Prius for example. They appear to have no resale value at all. So I will have to wait or my needs change.

The bi

Ginge, any commuter with charging facilities at the Luas stops or work charging can easily do 120 miles a day and more in Summer.

That can save a fortune and pay back in as little as 3 years which no other car can do. Granted the continental trips are going to be tough, but I'd rather fly than drive and rent while on the mainland.

With what I would save on fuel a year I could have a good holiday on the savings.

650Ginge

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ginge, any commuter with charging facilities at the Luas stops or work charging can easily do 120 miles a day and more in Summer.

That can save a fortune and pay back in as little as 3 years which no other car can do. Granted the continental trips are going to be tough, but I'd rather fly than drive and rent while on the mainland.

With what I would save on fuel a year I could have a good holiday on the savings.

I hear what your saying and I saw your maths behind it over 3 years in another post but I suppose the reality is the amount of people with charging at work is a a percentage so small it would be irrelevant. Also what appears to the be a complete write down on the purchase price make then expensive over a three period you have to be looking longer term to write down that purchase price.

You point about saving money for holidays after factoring in the purchase price cost is not accurate. In all you calcs you use money from selling your prius to reduce to over all expenditure. If you buy a leaf at €25k over ther years that looks like it will cost you €8333 a year in depreciation alone. Over ten years it is better €2500. For ten years you will have to carefully plan every journey over 100kms. That will get tiring way before ten years.

I ain't a new car buyer and never will be. You probably aren't either neither of the vehicles you drive are near new. I guess like me you don't want the depreciation hit.

Like I said I would love a leaf and with 300km range I would have a secondhand one but with possible a 100 maybe less no chance

September1

unkel wrote: »

That's not a real world example of commuting range. I did pretty much the same trip last month in my 12 year old very heavy Saab 9-5 (engine from the 70s) with at least the same weight on board (indeed packed with also 5 people)

I averaged 40MPG and drove a lot faster than you

On a commute into Dublin (on my own in an empty car) I would expect no more than 20-25MPG

There's no way you'd get 100km on a commute into and out of Dublin from a Leaf...

...unless the Gardai clear all the roads

I think you are wrong twice, first of all fact that engine is from 70ties does not mean it is crap, it probably is more toxic on exhaust but could be way more efficient.

Other thing is with Gardai, if they clear all the roads he would have trouble reaching destination, on fast drive at near constant speed EVs are not really doing their best. Slow moving traffic increases range, at 50kph I think you could do way more than 100 km in LEAF

650Ginge

650Ginge wrote: »

I hear what your saying and I saw your maths behind it over 3 years in another post but I suppose the reality is the amount of people with charging at work is a a percentage so small it would be irrelevant. Also what appears to the be a complete write down on the purchase price make then expensive over a three period you have to be looking longer term to write down that purchase price.

You point about saving money for holidays after factoring in the purchase price cost is not accurate. In all you calcs you use money from selling your prius to reduce to over all expenditure. If you buy a leaf at €25k over ther years that looks like it will cost you €8333 a year in depreciation alone. Over ten years it is better €2500. For ten years you will have to carefully plan every journey over 100kms. That will get tiring way before ten years.

I ain't a new car buyer and never will be. You probably aren't either neither of the vehicles you drive are near new. I guess like me you don't want the depreciation hit.

Like I said I would love a leaf and with 300km range I would have a secondhand one but with possible a 100 maybe less no chance

Ginge,

Of course what you say makes sense, there is a lot of depreciation on the Leaf, however, most dealers in the U.K will offer huge discounts in order to sell the car on, in Ireland that will never happen. The Leaf doesn't depreciate much more than any other Nissan to be honest, nor more than a French car or Italian.

If someone buys a brand new Nissan of any make they are going to take a huge depreciation hit, I guarantee you the BMW I3 will not depreciate nearly as much. But it will cost a lot more to buy even though the I3 is a piss poor attempt of an electric car by the Germans which was (only) built to keep Merkel's Government off their back, same with VW, the E-up and the Golf EV are all pretty poor attempts of electric cars by Tesla's standards. And this from major premium car manufacturers, sure they will all have as much range as the leaf (in Summer) or a little more and have better batteries, but they could have done much more.

The Renault Zoe will also depreciate heavily I bet for no other reason than just being a Renault.

Of course depreciation is a factor. However now that the Leaf is available in some cases for as little as 12,500 would pay back my old commute in the Prius costing 60 Euro's a week, including road tax saving over the 07 Prius 4 years. Excluding servicing costs.

That would not happen in a car of the same price that needs petrol or diesel.

As the Leaf gets even cheaper 2nd hand it will make a seriously cheap and excellent car to drive.

Of course the uncertainties of battery life remain, but for people who drive the annual 12k a year, you should easily get many years from the Leaf.

Regarding the charging infrastructure, of course this needs to change but it won't unless the E.U make some kind of law, which may or may not happen.

Who would fund the cost of this ? great question, if some of you remember a thread a while back, can't remember now if it was a Leaf thread or general ev, but anyway, I would be in favour of some kind of rental charge where ev owners fund the charging infrastructure and the ESB/contractors install the chargers, the rental charge helps with the maintenance also. But to keep costs down, only those who live far enough away and who need to charge should only be allowed to use the chargers, long distance commuters, apartment owners etc.

The charge can be simply added to the Electricity bill. The employer has nothing to pay, but there would need to be a new law to implement this and that would come from the E.U as the Irish Government are not capable of even thinking of such a thing.

Now you have to be careful because you if you charge a high enough rental you may end up paying as much as a normal car because electricity would be charged at the day rate which would make the return trip home twice as expensive as charging at home on night rate.

So I would also propose a reduction in electricity costs for day time charging.

The ESB have not announced yet the cost of EV public charging, if they get it wrong then nobody will use them if the price of charging is even close to that of driving on petrol or diesel.