Questions about the 1916 Rising.

tdv123

This might be hard to answer.

1. If the rising had succeed was the national flag suppose to be the tricolor or the green flag with words "Irish Republic" on it?
I always wondered this as the "Irish Republic" flag was hoisted first & higher than the tricolor.

Also why is De Valera mentioned as one of the leaders? Or where the "leaders" not limited to military the council?

jonniebgood1

It depends on what you define as a leader.

De Valera led the Bolands Mill battle for the rebels. He was not a signatory of the proclamation though which some people would see as the leaders. De Valera was second in command of the Dublin Brigade with Thomas McDonagh, a signatory being first. He was also in charge of the Mount street area where fierce fighting took place although it was lead on the ground by other volunteers.

Aineoil

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

It depends on what you define as a leader.

De Valera led the Bolands Mill battle for the rebels. He was not a signatory of the proclamation though which some people would see as the leaders. De Valera was second in command of the Dublin Brigade with Thomas McDonagh, a signatory being first. He was also in charge of the Mount street area where fierce fighting took place although it was lead on the ground by other volunteers.

Agreeing here. Don't shoot me!

He wasn't a signatory of the proclamation.
But he was a leader of Boland's Mill.

Aineoil

I wonder why Dev wasn't a signatory?

Neither was Countess Markievicz?

OU812

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

It depends on what you define as a leader.

De Valera led the Bolands Mill battle for the rebels. He was not a signatory of the proclamation though which some people would see as the leaders. De Valera was second in command of the Dublin Brigade with Thomas McDonagh, a signatory being first. He was also in charge of the Mount street area where fierce fighting took place although it was lead on the ground by other volunteers.

Sorry, that's quite wrong. In the historical documentary "Michael Collins" DeVelara is quite plainly seen in the archive footage in the GPO before being marched up O'Connell street to the Mansion House at the top.








Personally think the green flag looks better.

tdv123

Aineoil wrote: »

I wonder why Dev wasn't a signatory?

Neither was Countess Markievicz?

Me too especially because of the credit that was been given to the women of that movement & the feminist James Connolly on the council.

If things had went better for the rebels & if they could have established the Republic they proclaimed, judging by the proclamation women would have the right to vote. Did many other European nations allow women to vote at that moment in time?

Also anymore light on the flag issue?

jonniebgood1

OU812 wrote: »

Originally Posted by jonniebgood1 View Post

It depends on what you define as a leader.

De Valera led the Bolands Mill battle for the rebels. He was not a signatory of the proclamation though which some people would see as the leaders. De Valera was second in command of the Dublin Brigade with Thomas McDonagh, a signatory being first. He was also in charge of the Mount street area where fierce fighting took place although it was lead on the ground by other volunteers.

Sorry, that's quite wrong. In the historical documentary "Michael Collins" DeVelara is quite plainly seen in the archive footage in the GPO before being marched up O'Connell street to the Mansion House at the top.

You are mistaken. De Valeras role is well known and accepted. See the following references:

Biographical History

Born in New York but brought up in Limerick, de Valera studied mathematics at the Royal University. In 1908 he joined the Gaelic League and remained dedicated to the Irish language. He joined the Irish Volunteers in 1913 and during the rebellion of 1916 commanded the 3rd Battalion at Boland's Mill. Sentenced to death, de Valera was reprieved partly because of his American birth.

http://www.ucd.ie/archives/html/collections/devalera-eamon.htm

http://www.nli.ie/1916/1916_main.html
And also the roll of honour for those who fought at Bolands: http://1916rebellionmuseum.com/1916-easter-rising/roll-of-honour/bolands-mills-garrison

OU812

jonniebgood1

A wise man once told me that A joke is not funny when you have to explain it...:pac: (I re-read your post now... past the you are wrong bit!)

Peregrinus

tdv123 wrote: »

Also anymore light on the flag issue?

I think it's unlikely that the organisers of the rising felt that one of the questions that had to be determined right from the get-go was what the national flag of the republic would be, so I doubt they had a position on this.

Although the tricolour dates from 1848, it wasn't in common use before 1916, and the most usual "representative' flag employed by nationalists was the gold harp on a green field. Probably the concern of the 1916 leaders was not so much what flag they would use as what flag they would not use - the harp, because it was associated with the then-dominant "Home Rule" strand of Irish nationalism. The wanted to stake out a position which was more radical than the position mainly associated with the harp flag.

Following 1916 the tricolour was commonly referred to as the "Sinn Fein" flag, and it was adopted and used by all the institutions and agencies involved in the war of independence - the IRB, the Volunteers, Dail Eireann, Sinn Fein. I suspect it won out over the "Irish Republic" flag for two reasons. First, the "Irish Republic" flag was problematic for a large section of cultural nationalists, who would object to pre-eminence, or even use, of English in this context. Secondly, the tricolour was a great deal easier to fabricate informally, to draw, etc.

OU812

Peregrinus wrote: »

the tricolour was a great deal easier to fabricate informally, to draw, etc.

Although true, I don't think this qualifies as a reason. The stars & stripes is far more technical to draw/fabricate & predates the tricolour by almost 150 years.

kreuzberger

Aineoil wrote: »

I wonder why Dev wasn't a signatory?

Neither was Countess Markievicz?

because neither were members of the secret IRB military council nor the republics Provisional government . Therefore would have had no hand in drafting the proclamation nor indeed any business being a signatory to it .

kreuzberger

Peregrinus wrote: »

I think it's unlikely that the organisers of the rising felt that one of the questions that had to be determined right from the get-go was what the national flag of the republic would be, so I doubt they had a position on this.

Although the tricolour dates from 1848, it wasn't in common use before 1916, and the most usual "representative' flag employed by nationalists was the gold harp on a green field. Probably the concern of the 1916 leaders was not so much what flag they would use as what flag they would not use - the harp, because it was associated with the then-dominant "Home Rule" strand of Irish nationalism. The wanted to stake out a position which was more radical than the position mainly associated with the harp flag.

Following 1916 the tricolour was commonly referred to as the "Sinn Fein" flag, and it was adopted and used by all the institutions and agencies involved in the war of independence - the IRB, the Volunteers, Dail Eireann, Sinn Fein. I suspect it won out over the "Irish Republic" flag for two reasons. First, the "Irish Republic" flag was problematic for a large section of cultural nationalists, who would object to pre-eminence, or even use, of English in this context. Secondly, the tricolour was a great deal easier to fabricate informally, to draw, etc.

I think its a mistake to see both flags as in competition with one another . Both are still in use by republicans even today . The harp on a green banner can be considered as a national banner, containing our historic national emblems . It represents the nation, and the harp remains our national symbol . The tricolour is more political, and indeed represents the specifically pluralist politics of the republican position which the 1916 leaders were anxious to convey .

Also at that time the green white and orange would actually have been more difficult to produce, due to deficiencies in the dye making process which often came out as yellow or gold in appearance . The orange order had this problem too for a long time, hence their gaelic title being fearr bui

So its best to see the 2 flags purely complementing one another, not as in any kind of opposition .

Peregrinus

OU812 wrote: »

Although true, I don't think this qualifies as a reason. The stars & stripes is far more technical to draw/fabricate & predates the tricolour by almost 150 years.

It wouldn't be a reason for a government decision formally to adopt the tricolour as the official flag, no, but that didn't come until quite late on. But it could well be a reason why the tricolour might become the more popular symbol between 1916 and 1922, which in turn might influence a government decision some time after 1922 to make it official.

gobnaitolunacy

tdv123 wrote: »

1. If the rising had succeed was the national flag suppose to be the tricolor or the green flag with words "Irish Republic" on it?
I always wondered this as the "Irish Republic" flag was hoisted first & higher than the tricolor.

An Irish national flag with ENGLISH on it?! God forbid!

Wouldn't pass muster with the Irish language revivalists!

(TBH I don't think flag protocol was high on the list of priorities on the day, also I don't think it was intended for the Rising to 'succeed', as if it had a hope)

tdv123

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

An Irish national flag with ENGLISH on it?! God forbid!

Wouldn't pass muster with the Irish language revivalists!

(TBH I don't think flag protocol was high on the list of priorities on the day, also I don't think it was intended for the Rising to 'succeed', as if it had a hope)

But the majority of people in Ireland didn't speak Irish at the time. The Proclamation was also written in English. What was the flag of the revolutionary Irish Republic state 1919-1922?

I agree with the rest.

gobnaitolunacy

tdv123 wrote: »

But the majority of people in Ireland didn't speak Irish at the time. The Proclamation was also written in English. What was the flag of the revolutionary Irish Republic state 1919-1922?

I agree with the rest.

That is true....turn your sarcasm detector on for first bit.:D

FYI The Starry Plough Flag is also known to have been used in 1916. The Sunburst Flag was used by both the Fenians and Fianna Eireann, not sure if the latter made an appearance then. The other 'Green Flag' was probably too closely associated with British Army recruiting campaigns for WW1 to have found favour.